Article "shut down the prayer"

[aujeff11 6,243]

6 minutes ago, selias said:

I do care if that individual uses access to a captive audience to proselytize.

I agree with everything but apparently you haven’t been in a classroom recently? The mockery of Christians and Creationism by the professors was somewhat frequent for me almost a decade ago. 

[homersapien 11,373]

44 minutes ago, Swamp Eagle said:

Does it really make you feel better to say that? I'll digress and let you have your moment. 

Thanks for such a thoughtful response. 

[selias 2,398]

14 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

I agree with everything but apparently you haven’t been in a classroom recently? The mockery of Christians and Creationism by the professors was somewhat frequent for me almost a decade ago. 

Well, it's been over a decade since I graduated so yeah, it's been a minute. Then again, I lean towards libertarianism and dealt with political bias in plenty of classrooms.

[homersapien 11,373]

1 hour ago, AUsince72 said:

In fairness, atheists denounce the idea of ANY god.

Non sequitur.

And I was referring to any other (than your) God that other members of our society may have believe in. 

So, for this purpose, ANY god will do....right? 

Yes

Or is this group only attacking Christianity?

Well, in this case it happens to be Christianity - for obvious reasons - but that doesn't mean they wouldn't apply the same principles to other religions.

Betcha if the players were actually REQUIRED to say "namaste", perform yoga, and pray to the princess of sand & water in order to get playing time, you'd never hear from this so-called "religious watch-dog group".

OK.  But I don't understand your reasoning, other than you are perhaps taking it personally because Christianity is the religion at issue.

I know Christians get a bad rap, often due to other Christians that are gleefully pointed out by detractors, as hypocrites.  However, secular people groups conveniently overlook their own hypocrisy.

Probably so.  It's human nature.

If these players & coaches are freely expressing their beliefs and not forcing anyone not if like mind to "have" to do so, then what should this group, or ANY other group care? 

I have already covered that - "eternal vigilance is the price of freedom"

So WHO exactly is forcing their will on others in this case? 

I have no idea, possibly no one.  If there is any sort coercion I assume that only it's in the form of peer pressure, rather than direct.  Not even Gus is that dumb.  

Christian players & coaches expressing their beliefs protected by the Constitution or this "watch-dog group" trying to squash their rights?  Ironically hypocritical, huh...

That's begging the question.  No one has suggested the rights of Christians should be violated. 

The question is whether or not Christianity (in this case) is being institutionalized in a publicly-supported school.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, AUsince72 said:

EDIT:. Just adding, I'm only referring to THIS particular case.  As for "church & state" conversations beyond, each case has it's own nuances & discussions.  I'm not going there in this thread.

 

[Auburn2Eugene 2,317]

On 10/29/2018 at 10:07 AM, I_M4_AU said:

Nice timing of the article after what happened in Pittsburgh. Prayers sent.

LoL no it wasn't. The original article was posted a few days before that happened. The one quoted here may of been from that day, it just means the outlet was slow to pick it up. This had been released a few days in advance of that happening.

On 10/29/2018 at 1:15 PM, ArgoEagle said:

We just need to pray that these heathen people will have a change of heart. They are attacking Christianity plain and simple. If the players choose to pray together voluntarily and are not forced or threatened to do so, then it shouldn't be an issue with outsiders. They are fighting a battle they are destined to lose and are their own worst enemies.

No, they aren't. I do agree if players choose to do it, it shouldn't be an issue, but it's not at all a fight against your religion.

On 10/29/2018 at 1:44 PM, cole256 said:

I'm positive that we aren't close to being the only team that prays, so why is this an Auburn thing?

Because Auburn has been warned about this before. Also because this state opened the door to the FFRF by stating they were going to place in God we trust in all high schools. So this is a reminder they are still watching the state.

[johnnyAU 3,630]

What exactly is the issue with it again? It makes a tiny percentage of folks feel uncomfortable? They can opt out can they not?

[Auburn2Eugene 2,317]

22 hours ago, clwn said:

It's not forced on anyone. Sure no player has a gun pointed at their head saying "pray."  Sure some will argue about peer pressure which will be grasping at straws. What harm is it causing? Just seems so many, like this FFRF, are hilarious. Spend all their time on something they are against and don't believe in. What a waste of time. If they don't believe in any of it then why do they care? Spend your time not worrying about what others think or believe in. Always wanting to stir up problems. Sounds like usual demon work.

That would be like saying if you were Jewish in Poland, it wouldn't matter... Because the Nazi agenda was in Germany not Poland.

2 hours ago, AUGunsmith said:

Christians, the people who love freedom of religion as long as it's theirs 😂😂😂

 

 

Exactly. 

[AUsince72 11,084]

27 minutes ago, selias said:

I'm feeling lazy and I just poured a whisky so I'm not going to go looking but, I've seen isolated cases where a secular group complained about a non-Christian religion. It's just not as common because of the demographics I mentioned.

Regarding your #2, I don't know of a reputable secular organization having a problem with individuals practicing their faith of choice on their time. I don't care if a public school teacher prays or carries a Bible. I do care if that individual uses access to a captive audience to proselytize.

I understand, I wouldn't want to waste a good whiskey by doing work either.  Good call 😁.  

Again, I understand your point about the demographics.  However, the more and more time goes by, and if this political climate continues on it's current trajactory, the less and less of those "isolated" cases, as they may be, will even occur.  However, they will increase towards Christianity and only grow more and more.  Honestly, it's Biblical.  If you've ever heard of the book of Revelations, you'll know what I'm talking about.  So we Christians expect it.  We may not like it.... plenty may fight it.....but we know what's going down.

Back to #2, you may not have a problem with it.  But many do.  This organization that you admire, for example....  There are many that just at the sight of a Bible, cry foul. 

So, I'll give you that some "bad apples" don't make all athiest hypocritical jerks if you'll give me that some misguided Christians don't make all of us hypocritical jerks either.  Again, we CAN all get along.  Just have conversations instead of arguments.

Honestly, I'm not arguing as that doesn't help anything.  Just sharing one Christian's point of view.  You're certainly welcome to yours and if it weren't for my chemo, I'd share a whiskey with you 😉.

[Auburn2Eugene 2,317]

2 minutes ago, johnnyAU said:

What exactly is the issue with it again? It makes a tiny percentage of folks feel uncomfortable? They can opt out can they not?

So what you are saying is that if it makes others uncomfortable, but not you that it's ok? See it works both ways

[johnnyAU 3,630]

Just now, Auburn2Eugene said:

So what you are saying is that if it makes others uncomfortable, but not you that it's ok? See it works both ways

Not at all actually. If those players, or coaches want to opt out, or use that time to practice their own religion, it wouldn't be a problem. 

[Auburn2Eugene 2,317]

2 minutes ago, AUsince72 said:

I understand, I wouldn't want to waste a good whiskey by doing work either.  Good call 😁.  

Again, I understand your point about the demographics.  However, the more and more time goes by, and if this political climate continues on it's current trajactory, the less and less of those "isolated" cases, as they may be, will even occur.  However, they will increase towards Christianity and only grow more and more.  Honestly, it's Biblical.  If you've ever heard of the book of Revelations, you'll know what I'm talking about.  So we Christians expect it.  We may not like it.... plenty may fight it.....but we know what's going down.

Back to #2, you may not have a problem with it.  But many do.  This organization that you admire, for example....  There are many that just at the sight of a Bible, cry foul. 

So, I'll give you that some "bad apples" don't make all athiest hypocritical jerks if you'll give me that some misguided Christians don't make all of us hypocritical jerks either.  Again, we CAN all get along.  Just have conversations instead of arguments.

Honestly, I'm not arguing as that doesn't help anything.  Just sharing one Christian's point of view.  You're certainly welcome to yours and if it weren't for my chemo, I'd share a whiskey with you 😉.

Of course we can. I've always gotten along with you. You are Christian, I am atheist. None of that matters if we love Auburn football

[homersapien 11,373]

1 hour ago, alexava said:

I knew a very real situation very similar to this with a man wanting to dictate the structure of the prayer and didn’t want a female teacher or administrator leading it. It was decades ago but so ugly there are devout Christians in the community who SUPPORT removing prayer from schools. 

I had a work associate who was a very devout member of the Church of God.  He was adamantly opposed to school prayer for that very reason. He didn't want his kids praying someone else's prayer.

[Auburn2Eugene 2,317]

Just now, johnnyAU said:

Not at all actually. If those players, or coaches want to opt out, or use that time to practice their own religion, it wouldn't be a problem. 

In theory, I agree. But not everyone looks at it like that. Many may not agree. 

It's like this, if someone on the team feels uncomfortable in that activity, sure they can not be a part of it. But if they choose not to be a part of it, they WILL be outcasts. That's how it works in this country, and especially the South. I've lived it. Know what I did? I pretended to be a part of it. I knew what would happen if I didn't. This is VERY real. Doesn't matter if people of faith believe it or not. It happens and it puts the player through unimaginable stress or through unimaginable uncomfortableness. It happens. 

[AUsince72 11,084]

6 minutes ago, Auburn2Eugene said:

Of course we can. I've always gotten along with you. You are Christian, I am atheist. None of that matters if we love Auburn football

Precisely.  Regardless of our beliefs (even beyond religion) we're not here to hurt each other.  And on this Earth, we probably have more in common than not.  If you asked me a question or were interested in hearing about my faith I would be so happy to share it.  But if you're not, though I hope that changes for you one day as a "brother", I respect your right to believe what you want.

War Eagle!

[Auburn2Eugene 2,317]

3 minutes ago, homersapien said:

I had a work associate who was a very devout member of the Church of God.  He was adamantly opposed to school prayer for that very reason. He didn't want his kids praying someone else's prayer.

Yep. All of these people crying foul about the FFRF would sure have a different tune if it was about Islam. If it was "in Allah we trust" being put in schools or if it was mats being brought out and faced towards Mecca during school hours. They sure wouldn't be crying foul then.

[homersapien 11,373]

49 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

I agree with everything but apparently you haven’t been in a classroom recently? The mockery of Christians and Creationism by the professors was somewhat frequent for me almost a decade ago. 

Did you mean to say Christian creationism?

If so, that's certainly worthy of scientific dismissal, if not "mockery". 

But it's hard to imagine a professor "mocking" Christians.  If so, it would be highly unprofessional. 

[johnnyAU 3,630]

1 minute ago, Auburn2Eugene said:

It happens and it puts the player through unimaginable stress or through unimaginable uncomfortableness

A little over dramatic aren't we? Unimaginable stress or uncomfortableness (sic) really?

Many of us have been in those types of situations.  I, and many others, would have zero difficulty either opting out, listening, or just saying your own prayer internally, regardless if the religion of the speaker, majority of the crowd differs from yours.  This whole PC culture of "everyone gets a trophy" and "nobody can feel uncomfortable" has gotten out of hand. 

What would you do if you needed to attend a Hindu wedding, a Jewish ceremony or a Muslim gathering where prayers were extended? Would you decline to attend, or go cower in a corner somewhere? Seriously.

 

[homersapien 11,373]

1 minute ago, johnnyAU said:

A little over dramatic aren't we? Unimaginable stress or uncomfortableness (sic) really?

Many of us have been in those types of situations.  I, and many others, would have zero difficulty either opting out, listening, or just saying your own prayer internally, regardless if the religion of the speaker, majority of the crowd differs from yours.  This whole PC culture of "everyone gets a trophy" and "nobody can feel uncomfortable" has gotten out of hand. 

What would you do if you needed to attend a Hindu wedding, a Jewish ceremony or a Muslim gathering where prayers were extended? Would you decline to attend, or go cower in a corner somewhere? Seriously.

 

I think Eugene is referring more to the subsequent and inevitable peer pressure than the immediate effects of being subjected to group prayer.  Not easy for a young person away from home to become the "other".

[Auburn2Eugene 2,317]

4 minutes ago, johnnyAU said:

A little over dramatic aren't we? Unimaginable stress or uncomfortableness (sic) really?

Many of us have been in those types of situations.  I, and many others, would have zero difficulty either opting out, listening, or just saying your own prayer internally, regardless if the religion of the speaker, majority of the crowd differs from yours.  This whole PC culture of "everyone gets a trophy" and "nobody can feel uncomfortable" has gotten out of hand. 

What would you do if you needed to attend a Hindu wedding, a Jewish ceremony or a Muslim gathering where prayers were extended? Would you decline to attend, or go cower in a corner somewhere? Seriously.

 

No not over dramatic at all. 

I just had to move to a new area and change high schools because I chose not to take part in "voluntary" prayers. I was ostracized. I was the black sheep. I lost my starting position immediately. I wasnt invited to team events. I wasn't welcome to friends houses anymore. I went from being one of the top dogs in that school to being below the goths. 

I moved, changed schools, and pretended to be a part of the "voluntary" prayers. And imagine that... suddenly I had all those things again. 

Anyone who says players can opt out without repercussions hasn't ever expected anything like that.  Nor have they ever been around someone who chose not to be a part of "voluntary" prayers. 

They are voluntary alright. You volunteer yourself to lose EVERYTHING if you have the Gaul to not take part in "voluntary" prayers.

 

So... no I'm not exaggerating. At ALL.

[AUsince72 11,084]

12 hours ago, homersapien said:

13 hours ago, AUsince72 said:

In fairness, atheists denounce the idea of ANY god.

Non sequitur.

And I was referring to any other (than your) God that other members of our society may have believe in. 

So, for this purpose, ANY god will do....right? 

Yes

I know how you meant it.  But if this athiest "religion watch-dog" group is non-specific towards what religion it attacks then that's my point about "any god".

Or is this group only attacking Christianity?

Well, in this case it happens to be Christianity - for obvious reasons - but that doesn't mean they wouldn't apply the same principles to other religions.

And as I was saying to selias, in today's political climate Christians are who they're actually after.  Otherwise, they'd have CNN or MSNBC et al attacking THEM for bigotry and intolerance.  There may be isolated cases, as selias said but it would take super research to find them whereas it's easy to find their attacks on Christians.

Betcha if the players were actually REQUIRED to say "namaste", perform yoga, and pray to the princess of sand & water in order to get playing time, you'd never hear from this so-called "religious watch-dog group".

OK.  But I don't understand your reasoning, other than you are perhaps taking it personally because Christianity is the religion at issue.

See my above reply.  My point is that let's be honest...the only "religion" they have a problem with is Christianity, because it's been the primary religion of the USA since before we were even our own nation, therefore Christians are "big bad bullies".  However, if you want to worship porpoises and sacrifice your brain to the marijuana gods, they'd have nothing to say about it.

I know Christians get a bad rap, often due to other Christians that are gleefully pointed out by detractors, as hypocrites.  However, secular people groups conveniently overlook their own hypocrisy.

Probably so.  It's human nature.

If these players & coaches are freely expressing their beliefs and not forcing anyone not if like mind to "have" to do so, then what should this group, or ANY other group care? 

I have already covered that - "eternal vigilance is the price of freedom"

So WHO exactly is forcing their will on others in this case? 

I have no idea, possibly no one.  If there is any sort coercion I assume that only it's in the form of peer pressure, rather than direct.  Not even Gus is that dumb.  

The above question is actually meant to go with the below question. See below...

Christian players & coaches expressing their beliefs protected by the Constitution or this "watch-dog group" trying to squash their rights?  Ironically hypocritical, huh...

That's begging the question.  No one has suggested the rights of Christians should be violated. 

Here's where we simply disagree.  I believe the group's purpose IS to infringe on Christians' rights.  It's my opinion, you're welcome to yours.

The question is whether or not Christianity (in this case) is being institutionalized in a publicly-supported school.

It should not be institutionalized in public school.  We agree here.  Again, "render unto caeser, what is caeser's".  However, I believe this is a voluntary action by people of faith. I'm sure if Auburn had a large Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, etc population on their team, the idea of a leader of their faith being available would be fine to the administration too.  This ain't the '50's or '60's anymore.

 

 

Quote

EDIT:. Just adding, I'm only referring to THIS particular case.  As for "church & state" conversations beyond, each case has it's own nuances & discussions.  I'm not going there in this thread.

 Hard to answer you in this format, to make sense, but I tried.

War Eagle to you buddy!

 

 

[johnnyAU 3,630]

I understand, but as those kids are growing up, they'll be put in countless situations where they'll have to deal with peer pressure and group dynamics: school cliques, work, sports, communities, boards, organizations, etc....  Instead of trying to insulate the kids from all possible scenarios of being uncomfortable, how about teaching them how to navigate through and handle them instead? 

[aujeff11 6,243]

11 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Did you mean to say Christian creationism?

If so, that's certainly worthy of scientific dismissal, if not "mockery". 

But it's hard to imagine a professor "mocking" Christians.  If so, it would be highly unprofessional. 

I don’t believe that the whole world was created in one week. But to say that something came from nothing without substantial evidence as to why, and then put faith into that belief requires some mockery as well.

[selias 2,398]

32 minutes ago, AUsince72 said:

I understand, I wouldn't want to waste a good whiskey by doing work either.  Good call 😁.  

Again, I understand your point about the demographics.  However, the more and more time goes by, and if this political climate continues on it's current trajactory, the less and less of those "isolated" cases, as they may be, will even occur.  However, they will increase towards Christianity and only grow more and more.  Honestly, it's Biblical.  If you've ever heard of the book of Revelations, you'll know what I'm talking about.  So we Christians expect it.  We may not like it.... plenty may fight it.....but we know what's going down.

Back to #2, you may not have a problem with it.  But many do.  This organization that you admire, for example....  There are many that just at the sight of a Bible, cry foul. 

So, I'll give you that some "bad apples" don't make all athiest hypocritical jerks if you'll give me that some misguided Christians don't make all of us hypocritical jerks either.  Again, we CAN all get along.  Just have conversations instead of arguments.

Honestly, I'm not arguing as that doesn't help anything.  Just sharing one Christian's point of view.  You're certainly welcome to yours and if it weren't for my chemo, I'd share a whiskey with you 😉.

I'm well informed of the Christian opinion of things. I was raised Episcopal, spent 8 years as an acolyte, and the rest of my family is still religious (I'm the black sheep ).

It's a really pleasant evening here and I don't want to get into a testy argument with folks (not calling you testy at all) so I'll just drop it.

I will raise a toast in your honor tonight and when you've kicked cancer's ass, we'll raise one together (probably virtually but the sentiment remains).

Cheers, War Eagle, and F$#% Cancer!

[AUsince72 11,084]

3 minutes ago, selias said:

I'm well informed of the Christian opinion of things. I was raised Episcopal, spent 8 years as an acolyte, and the rest of my family is still religious (I'm the black sheep ).

It's a really pleasant evening here and I don't want to get into a testy argument with folks (not calling you testy at all) so I'll just drop it.

I will raise a toast in your honor tonight and when you've kicked cancer's ass, we'll raise one together (probably virtually but the sentiment remains).

Cheers, War Eagle, and F$#% Cancer!

It's all good!  I respect your views and call you brother.

I also appreciate your support in my battle!

War Eagle!

[homersapien 11,373]

13 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

I don’t believe that the whole world was created in one week. But to say that something came from nothing without substantial evidence as to why, and then put faith into that belief requires some mockery as well.

Life on earth certainly didn't "come from nothing".  There were all sorts of external "inputs'. 

The science of evolution is established. It forms the basis of all biologic sciences and is supported by virtually every other branch of science that has examined the question.  To say evolution is not fact is to deny science, period.  So while one is free to mock evolution, they would be wrong.

(And science doesn't address the question of "why", which is beyond it's capabilities.)

Now if you want to argue what had to have happened prior to the big bang, that's something we don't understand.