Defund the Police

[SocialCircle 570]

1 minute ago, wdefromtx said:

Thanks. These two examples show that you have to be careful with whose data you use and trust and not to run with what the headline is.

 

The low wage earner increase is 3.4% compared to the average 4% of the wages in the other article. Which was over approximately the same period of time. I would say that it is more across the board increases and not really low wage earners increasing at a greater rate.

Are you saying you don’t believe low wage earners saw a higher percentage increase than high wage earners in 2019?  

[MaineTiger 33]

27 minutes ago, aubiefifty said:

you know edibles are way stronger than smoking right? but if it is not cooked to a certain degree for a certain amount of time it will do little to nothing. i am probably preaching to the choir tho...........

Right there with you. I look at it like smoking is 'instant gratification' and edible sneaks up on you like a ninja...

It's funny up here though. Recreational isn't technically legal, so you are given the 'goods' for free and 'tip' the amount that is owed for said goods. Police basically look the other way because, why bother?

 

Now that I've derailed...

[wdefromtx 3,159]

7 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

Are you saying you don’t believe low wage earners saw a higher percentage increase than high wage earners in 2019?  

I am saying with the data you showed in those two articles low wage earners saw a lower increase percentage than middle wage earners. 

[SocialCircle 570]

13 minutes ago, wdefromtx said:

I am saying with the data you showed in those two articles low wage earners saw a lower increase percentage than middle wage earners. 

The WSJ article shows it and I understand you can’t see it all. The consensus of the data I’ve seen shows lower wages increased by just under or right around 4% and it was about 1% less for the high wage earners. 

[homersapien 11,367]

1 hour ago, aubiefifty said:

you know edibles are way stronger than smoking right? but if it is not cooked to a certain degree for a certain amount of time it will do little to nothing. i am probably preaching to the choir tho...........

Were you aware that you can cook with remnants of stuff that's been vaped?  Vaping doesn't get all of the active ingredients out. 

(Or so I've been told)

[wdefromtx 3,159]

5 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

The WSJ article shows it and I understand you can’t see it all. The consensus of the data I’ve seen shows lower wages increased by just under or right around 4% and it was about 1% less for the high wage earners. 

So low and mid-range earners increased about 4% and high range earners increased at about 3%. In my opinion those are probably within a margin of error based on the two sources presented. I would basically say it is still an across the board increase. The low wage earner may be increasing slightly higher, but it isn't substantial.  It is about what it seems based on anecdotal evidence. 

[SocialCircle 570]

10 minutes ago, wdefromtx said:

So low and mid-range earners increased about 4% and high range earners increased at about 3%. In my opinion those are probably within a margin of error based on the two sources presented. I would basically say it is still an across the board increase. The low wage earner may be increasing slightly higher, but it isn't substantial.  It is about what it seems based on anecdotal evidence. 

Here is another article.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/03/13/workers-at-lower-end-of-pay-scale-getting-most-benefit-from-rising-wages.html
 

 

[wdefromtx 3,159]

4 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

Here is another article.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/03/13/workers-at-lower-end-of-pay-scale-getting-most-benefit-from-rising-wages.html
 

 

Thanks, that is the same article as one of the others you linked to.

[SocialCircle 570]

12 minutes ago, wdefromtx said:

Thanks, that is the same article as one of the others you linked to.

Sorry about that. I meant to show you this one.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/low-wage-workers-are-getting-bigger-raises-than-bosses/
 

[wdefromtx 3,159]

2 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

Sorry about that. I meant to show you this one.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/low-wage-workers-are-getting-bigger-raises-than-bosses/
 

I can see where you are optimistic about low wage growth....but I don't think that the rate of growth is enough to help with the problems we are discussing. Low and mid range workers saw about the same increase, to really make a difference we need to find ways to have more low wage workers gain skills that move them up into the skilled worker wages. I know there has been initiatives to help, but I am not sure they have been as effective as they should have. 

[SocialCircle 570]

2 minutes ago, wdefromtx said:

I can see where you are optimistic about low wage growth....but I don't think that the rate of growth is enough to help with the problems we are discussing. Low and mid range workers saw about the same increase, to really make a difference we need to find ways to have more low wage workers gain skills that move them up into the skilled worker wages. I know there has been initiatives to help, but I am not sure they have been as effective as they should have. 

I agree we can do better. Like I mentioned previously this is where bringing manufacturing jobs back to the US is so very helpful. 

[wdefromtx 3,159]

2 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

I agree we can do better. Like I mentioned previously this is where bringing manufacturing jobs back to the US is so very helpful. 

Yeah, but are those jobs going to pay anything substantial? I am all for bringing back manufacturing jobs. I just hope they all aren't making widgets for minimum wage. 

[SocialCircle 570]

1 minute ago, wdefromtx said:

Yeah, but are those jobs going to pay anything substantial? I am all for bringing back manufacturing jobs. I just hope they all aren't making widgets for minimum wage. 

Yes, many of them pay very well. Of course, some not as well. You can go to many rural small towns in GA and AL and I’m sure other places as well and see what happened to many of these towns when mfg. plants left. Lots of middle class jobs gone really, really hurt many of these towns. It happened in Royston, GA where I lived from the 5th grade through the end of high school. That small town has been in decline since mfg. left. 

[wdefromtx 3,159]

2 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

Yes, many of them pay very well. Of course, some not as well. You can go to many rural small towns in GA and AL and I’m sure other places as well and see what happened to many of these towns when mfg. plants left. Lots of middle class jobs gone really, really hurt many of these towns. It happened in Royston, GA where I lived from the 5th grade through the end of high school. That small town has been in decline since mfg. left. 

See it all over. 

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

Really good read on Camden, NJ and how they "defunded" police to successful results.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/camden-nj-where-defunding-the-police-worked-didnt-really-defund-the-police-105251107.html

[wdefromtx 3,159]

3 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

Really good read on Camden, NJ and how they "defunded" police to successful results.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/camden-nj-where-defunding-the-police-worked-didnt-really-defund-the-police-105251107.html

The media needs to quit calling it defunding and call it something less sensational so more people will understand what’s going on. I’m sure half the people will only read sensational headlines (not this particular article) and never see the whole story. So now I’m going hear all these people whine about “defunding “ the police and how dumb it is. 

 

Similarly I saw where someone on FB posted an article that said “Covid cases reach record numbers in TX as the state tries to reopen” Technically it was a record of only 47 cases per day, but if you look at the article you realize the daily count has remained relatively the same since the beginning of May. The article could have said “ Texas Covid cases remain relatively flat as the state reopens.” This headline would have matched the story more....but I guess it doesn’t get the shock and awe value. lol 

 

[savorytiger 182]

1 hour ago, Brad_ATX said:

Really good read on Camden, NJ and how they "defunded" police to successful results.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/camden-nj-where-defunding-the-police-worked-didnt-really-defund-the-police-105251107.html

I dug into this trying to find a good example of defunding the police successfully, but I don't think it's the same the situation.  In Camden, the crime was was through the roof and they simply couldn't afford to field enough officers to deal with it after going through budget costs.  By lowering costs per officer from $180k to about $100k, they were able to field more.  It looks like their police budget originally peaked at $41.1 million in 2009 (page 22 in this doc) and is now sitting at $68.4 million (link).  I'm sure there's a lot of information that I just don't have (maybe the budget makes sense as it's a County-wide department?), so feel free to post if you find more to share on this situation.

I will say that it does show a situation where they were able to disband and reform their police department and improve on the city's situation despite losing institutional knowledge.

[savorytiger 182]

1 hour ago, wdefromtx said:

The media needs to quit calling it defunding and call it something less sensational so more people will understand what’s going on. I’m sure half the people will only read sensational headlines (not this particular article) and never see the whole story. So now I’m going hear all these people whine about “defunding “ the police and how dumb it is. 

 

Similarly I saw where someone on FB posted an article that said “Covid cases reach record numbers in TX as the state tries to reopen” Technically it was a record of only 47 cases per day, but if you look at the article you realize the daily count has remained relatively the same since the beginning of May. The article could have said “ Texas Covid cases remain relatively flat as the state reopens.” This headline would have matched the story more....but I guess it doesn’t get the shock and awe value. lol 

 

Agreed that "defunding" is a terrible way to phrase it.  People generally don't read anything past a headline and it's really hard to discard first impressions.  One reason I was pleasantly surprised @I_M4_AU actually watched the John Oliver clip.  

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

21 minutes ago, savorytiger said:

I dug into this trying to find a good example of defunding the police successfully, but I don't think it's the same the situation.  In Camden, the crime was was through the roof and they simply couldn't afford to field enough officers to deal with it after going through budget costs.  By lowering costs per officer from $180k to about $100k, they were able to field more.  It looks like their police budget originally peaked at $41.1 million in 2009 (page 22 in this doc) and is now sitting at $68.4 million (link).  I'm sure there's a lot of information that I just don't have (maybe the budget makes sense as it's a County-wide department?), so feel free to post if you find more to share on this situation.

I will say that it does show a situation where they were able to disband and reform their police department and improve on the city's situation despite losing institutional knowledge.

It's actually pointed out in the article that the county police that was created re-unionized.  It raised costs exponentially.

[TexasTiger 12,835]

10 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

It's actually pointed out in the article that the county police that was created re-unionized.  It raised costs exponentially.

Pass state laws limiting what police unions can do— negotiate salaries and benefits? Ok. Protect bad cops? No. It’s not just about costs. It’s about what you get.

[augolf1716 21,109]

2 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

Pass state laws limiting what police unions can do— negotiate salaries and benefits? Ok. Protect bad cops? No. It’s not just about costs. It’s about what you get.

I would be shock if that could happen in Jersey of all places. When I worked there granted a very long time ago unions ruled the state.

[SaltyTiger 7,794]

2 hours ago, savorytiger said:

Agreed that "defunding" is a terrible way to phrase it. 

Be interesting to know how many of the rank and file protesters understood "defunding" as defined in numerous articles when the movement began.  

[TexasTiger 12,835]

2 hours ago, SaltyTiger said:

Be interesting to know how many of the rank and file protesters understood "defunding" as defined in numerous articles when the movement began.  

The Dem leadership ain’t going there. Even Bernie.

[Mikey 16,579]

14 hours ago, Brad_ATX said:

It's actually pointed out in the article that the county police that was created re-unionized.  It raised costs exponentially.

 

16 hours ago, Brad_ATX said:

Really good read on Camden, NJ and how they "defunded" police to successful results.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/camden-nj-where-defunding-the-police-worked-didnt-really-defund-the-police-105251107.html

So, "defunding" the police in Camden resulted in a 60% increase in funding for the police. That makes perfectly good sense. The results may well have been successful. I would suggest that almost any honestly run municipality could have improved policing by increasing the police budget by 60%.

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

20 minutes ago, Mikey said:

 

So, "defunding" the police in Camden resulted in a 60% increase in funding for the police. That makes perfectly good sense. The results may well have been successful. I would suggest that almost any honestly run municipality could have improved policing by increasing the police budget by 60%.

No, initially it resulted in budget cuts and lower crime rates.  Unionization led to increased spending.