Zell Miller

[aucorner 0]

I still don't understand. Is it an 'entitlement' because it's available to every kid or because it gets funded from different sources?

And, whether it's an 'entitlement' or not, why is it wrong?

HOPE is not available to every kid................it is available to kids with over a 3.0 GPA and their parents fall below a certain income bracket.

[channonc 466]

HOPE is not available to every kid................it is available to kids with over a 3.0 GPA and their parents fall below a certain income bracket.

Again, I pose the question, how is this a bad thing?

[TitanTiger 20,510]

Well, I think the main reason it's a "bad thing" in this particular scenario is that the lottery was proposed as THE means for paying for these scholarships. However, the number of kids qualifying for the schollies has outstripped the lottery's ability to pay for them. So now the taxpayers, including those who voted against the lottery in the first place, are going to have to make up the shortfall.

There's nothing morally wrong with providing scholarships. But then again, there's nothing morally wrong with not providing them either. Going to college for free is not a right.

[aucorner 0]

HOPE is not available to every kid................it is available to kids with over a 3.0 GPA and their parents fall below a certain income bracket.

Again, I pose the question, how is this a bad thing?

First, the income bracket thing is not fair, and second, when has an entitlement ever been a good thing other than during the New Deal and the government assistance that is provided today for people who really need it.

Not everybody was meant to go to college. What needs to be done is the money from the lottery [that funds the HOPE] needs to be spent on primary education to make a HS diploma mean something again. If the current trend continues in this country, a college degree will become equivalent to a HS diploma.

Now, I pose the question, is that a good thing?

[Tiger Al 0]

HOPE is not available to every kid................it is available to kids with over a 3.0 GPA and their parents fall below a certain income bracket.

Ooops...let me rephrase my question.

Is it an entitlement because it's available to every kid who meets certain criteria or because it gets funded from different sources?

Why is it wrong?

[TitanTiger 20,510]

Tennessee employed the same flawed logic that Georgia did in setting up its lottery. Every year we lament the sad shape of schools...either the building themselves, or the supplies and tools that they lack, or the classrooms with too many students, or something. So do we start a lottery with all the proceeds going toward improving K-12 education? No! That would make too much damn sense.

Instead, we set it up to provide free scholarships. This in a state where higher education is already having trouble serving the students it already has. So now, we'll flood the state universities with even MORE students. What do think will come in a couple of years or so once the colleges are strapped trying to handle the influx of new students? You got it...they'll be squalling to raise taxes "for education". All because they didn't have the common sense to improve what was already there before making things worse.

[aucorner 0]

HOPE is not available to every kid................it is available to kids with over a 3.0 GPA and their parents fall below a certain income bracket.

Ooops...let me rephrase my question.

Is it an entitlement because it's available to every kid who meets certain criteria or because it gets funded from different sources?

Why is it wrong?

This is redistribution of wealth which is not capitalism. In case you did not know, capitalism is what made this country great.

I am starting to wonder if you and others are communist.

[Tigermike 3,053]

Is it an entitlement because it's available to every kid who meets certain criteria or because it gets funded from different sources?

Why is it wrong?

The lottery was passed by a vote of all registered voters in GA, or at least all that voted. It was advertised & passed with the understanding that the lottery ALONE would fund the schlorships. Now the lottery is not able to fund the program, but did they cut back? No, heaven forbid! Did it go back for a vote? Once again NO. So the politicians decided to go ahead & fund it with money from the general fund.

To answer your question, I would consider it an entitlement because it is being paid for by tax $$$ instead of entirely by the lottery AND the polititions went ahead in this manner rather than to stop any new schlorships when the money was gone.

Personally, I could care less what they do in GA, I live in Alabama & we have more than enough problems in this state without looking across the state line.

[aucorner 0]

Is it an entitlement because it's available to every kid who meets certain criteria or because it gets funded from different sources?

Why is it wrong?

The lottery was passed by a vote of all registered voters in GA, or at least all that voted. It was advertised & passed with the understanding that the lottery ALONE would fund the schlorships. Now the lottery is not able to fund the program, but did they cut back? No, heaven forbid! Did it go back for a vote? Once again NO. So the politicians decided to go ahead & fund it with money from the general fund.

To answer your question, I would consider it an entitlement because it is being paid for by tax $$$ instead of entirely by the lottery AND the polititions went ahead in this manner rather than to stop any new schlorships when the money was gone.

Personally, I could care less what they do in GA, I live in Alabama & we have more than enough problems in this state without looking across the state line.

It is an entitlement whether it comes from lottery funds or the general fund.....he11, I live in Georgia and have kids and I am still against it.

[Weagle98 119]

Not everybody was meant to go to college. What needs to be done is the money from the lottery [that funds the HOPE] needs to be spent on primary education to make a HS diploma mean something again. If the current trend continues in this country, a college degree will become equivalent to a HS diploma.

This is why I'm working on my masters. I have met way to many uneducated people that have a college degree. Here is an actual e-mail that was sent to my company from an individual who was looking for employment.... we passed. I left off the resume.

To whom it may concern,

I hope I not interupting your or organization by sending this email, but

I have currently recieved information about you and organization from FSU

because of your past involvement with student programs and internships.

I am a student at FSU seeking an internship and or job responsibilities

with in your organization if aplicable. I'm entering my finial semester

in FSU's Information Studies program hoping to receive my degree along

with adaquate job experiance and skills. I was hoping you and your

oganization could help fufill my need for job experiance as well as my

internship requirements set by FSU's information Studies department. If

you have any openings or any way you can help me, please do so. I will be

greatly aprechative.

[TitanTiger 20,510]

It is an entitlement whether it comes from lottery funds or the general fund.....he11, I live in Georgia and have kids and I am still against it.

Well, at least if it comes from lottery funds, the money was given voluntarilty. Those who voted against the lottery for various reasons can at least opt out of the deal by not buying lottery tickets. The saps who waste chunks of their paycheck on the thing are funding it.

But when you use the force of government to confiscate money from people to fund something like this, I think that's when it becomes an entitlement. You've basically just deemed going to college and having other people pay for it some kind of "right".

[TitanTiger 20,510]

To whom it may concern,

I hope I not interupting your or organization by sending this email, but

I have currently recieved information about you and organization from FSU

because of your past involvement with student programs and internships.

I am a student at FSU seeking an internship and or job responsibilities

with in your organization if aplicable. I'm entering my finial semester

in FSU's Information Studies program hoping to receive my degree along

with adaquate job experiance and skills. I was hoping you and your

oganization could help fufill my need for job experiance as well as my

internship requirements set by FSU's information Studies department. If

you have any openings or any way you can help me, please do so. I will be

greatly aprechative.

Geez louise. I'm amazed at how many college students can't write or spell. It's one thing to fat-finger something you're typing on a message board. That's casual and unimportant. But I've talked to people looking for their first job and they act like it's the cruelest thing in the world to expect proper grammar and spelling on a resume and cover letter.

I've told them that I know bosses that use that simple test as the first "cut". They weed through resumes and immediately trash the ones with spelling, punctuation, or grammar errors. They thought that was stupid and even unfair!?!

Then I explain to them that if you don't deem a job important enough to triple check all spelling and grammar (and have someone with good skills in those areas check it as well), then the boss has every right to assume you'll show the same attention to detail to your job...and that's a waste of their time.

But I'm sure the real reason these kids can't understand these things is because of how woefully underfunded our education system is. :roll:

[Tiger Al 0]

Titan, I don't know anything about the logic Tennessee used or didn't use, so I can't comment on that. Universities are a business and, like any business, it must adapt to the needs of its' customers. If the universities there are indeed being overrun with more students than they can handle, then, like other businesses, they must come up with new and creative ways to serve their customers. If they can't or won't, then that is nothing that a class-action lawsuit can't remedy. Allow those students who've earned their scholarships under the Tennessee program to go out of state for their education. University administrators can figure out a way to serve their customers. They are, after all, very educated people.

aucorner, you still didn't tell me why HOPE is an 'entitlement.' You just said that it is. Your argument that college isn't for everyone is weak, at best. I'm assuming that these kids aren't forced to take advantage of the HOPE scholarship. Receiving that benefit is voluntary, right? The rules have already eliminated many kids acedemically and financially who would be considered unworthy of college or the HOPE scholarship. This 'redistribution of wealth' was, until recently, according to you, also completely voluntary. Or, does the state force you to buy lottery tickets? If not, then those morally opposed to helping kids who may not otherwise get to go to college don't have to buy tickets. It seems short-sighted to me to not see the inherent benefit of a state whose citizens are better educated. It seems like that, in the long run, would make Georgia better for EVERYONE who lives there. You see, aucorner, I think the best way to break the cycle of poverty is through EDUCATION and OPPORTUNITY. In addition to capitalism, I happen to think smart, educated people also made this country great, and will continue to do so.

You've also bemoaned HOPE because of the sad state of primary education in Georgia and think the lottery proceeds should go to that. That isn't what it was meant for. Your state and federal education money goes for that and Georgia, like a lot of states, needs to use it more wisely.

When has an entitlement ever been a good thing? Well, depending on your age, you may very well be able to answer that yourself. Social security, Medicare, Medicaid, ADFC, WIC and VA benefits are all great entitlement programs. Ask any single mother who was able to better her lot in life and her childrens because she was able to put her kids in daycare at no cost to her, enabling her to earn some semblence of a living. Or, maybe even go to college. I see a future taxpayer who will give back in some way what she received! Hell, forget about her. Ask me. I'm not sure where we'd be had it not been for food stamps getting us through a very down period in our lives. So, allow me to take this opportunity to say "Thank You!!!" if you or your parents were taxpayers in Alabama during the early seventies.

Now, if my belief that we can all benefit from helping the less fortunate among us makes me a commie, pinko, bed wetting libbie or whatever names you care to hurl at me, fine. I will gladly take that as a compliment, however unorthodox it may be. Thanks.

[CarolinaTiger 0]

would someone define "entitlement"???

maybe that'd help this along a bit.

ct

[TitanTiger 20,510]

Titan, I don't know anything about the logic Tennessee used or didn't use, so I can't comment on that. Universities are a business and, like any business, it must adapt to the needs of its' customers. If the universities there are indeed being overrun with more students than they can handle, then, like other businesses, they must come up with new and creative ways to serve their customers. If they can't or won't, then that is nothing that a class-action lawsuit can't remedy. Allow those students who've earned their scholarships under the Tennessee program to go out of state for their education. University administrators can figure out a way to serve their customers. They are, after all, very educated people.

Universities are an odd hybrid. They are not a business in the traditional sense. They receive most of their funding from state government and they have the restrictions and limitations that such entities have. Besides, it wasn't the universities I was blaming. It was the stupid politicians. They are the ones who set this thing up the way it is.

[Tiger Al 0]

Universities are an odd hybrid. They are not a business in the traditional sense. They receive most of their funding from state government and they have the restrictions and limitations that such entities have. Besides, it wasn't the universities I was blaming. It was the stupid politicians. They are the ones who set this thing up the way it is.

Do any of your politicians sit on any of the universities boards?

Later classes, more weekend classes, internet based and distance learning could all thin out the herd a bit. Ultimately, it may take building more campuses. Like I said, these schools will have to get creative to solve the problem. But, in my opinion, Tennessee sounds like it has a great problem to have!

[TitanTiger 20,510]

How is it a great problem to have underfunded schools, then take the only new revenue source (and a voluntary one at that) and find a way to use that money to simply exacerbate the problem instead of solving it?

[Tiger Al 0]

How is it a great problem to have underfunded schools, then take the only new revenue source (and a voluntary one at that) and find a way to use that money to simply exacerbate the problem instead of solving it?

I meant that it's a good problem to have when you have 'too many' people who are ready, willing and able to go to college. I wish we had that problem in Alabama.

[Tiger Al 0]

Here is a friendly reply to Zell from his good buddy David Worley.

As head of the Georgia Democratic Party I pushed for your appointment to the Senate, and chaired the meeting that put you on the ballot as our nominee. The party supported you as I and thousands of other Georgia Democrats worked to elect you. Together we raised every penny we could to help you and the entire ticket win election.

I didn't hear a single complaint from you about the Democratic Party during that campaign.

Wow. When is he up for re-election? I guess he'll be running on the Republican ticket then.

[CarolinaTiger 0]

its my understanding he's not running for re-election.

if the democratic party didn't know what they were getting in ZM, then it's their fault.

he hasn't flopped on positions he held prior to being elected senator has he???

again, can someone define "entitlement" for me, especially as it's being bantied about in this thread?

ct

[Tiger Al 0]

CarolinaTiger, here is how Dr. Paul M. Johnson of the Auburn University Department of Political Science defines an entitlement program:

Entitlement program

The kind of government program that provides individuals with personal financial benefits (or sometimes special government-provided goods or services) to which an indefinite (but usually rather large) number of potential beneficiaries have a legal right (enforceable in court, if necessary) whenever they meet eligibility conditions that are specified by the standing law that authorizes the program. The beneficiaries of entitlement programs are normally individual citizens or residents, but sometimes organizations such as business corporations, local governments, or even political parties may have similar special "entitlements" under certain programs. The most important examples of entitlement programs at the federal level in the United States would include Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid, most Veterans' Administration programs, federal employee and military retirement plans, unemployment compensation, food stamps, and agricultural price support programs.

So, if we used this definition, HOPE would qualify as an entitlement program. My question would remain unchanged; "What's wrong with that?"

And you're right about Miller's re-election. My comments about that were meant rhetorically.

[AUBoggs 0]

Every major party has one or two guys who switches sides on a regular basis. Zell Miller switches from left to right. Arlen Specter switches from right to left.

Is voting w/ the opposite party really an issue? Assuming the vote supports the views of the people who voted you into office.

It's a shame votes have to be made on party lines. Because of this line of thinking, we currently have an obscene amount of federal judge nominations being held up after nearly 3 years of the current administration. Somewhere in all this party bickering we, the American people, are getting royally screwed. I would bet our founding fathers had a different idea about governement for a free nation.

I for one welcome more Zell Millers. Not because they may be conservative but because they are not afraid to express the views of their constituents

Out...

[Tiger Al 0]

Is voting w/ the opposite party really an issue? Assuming the vote supports the views of the people who voted you into office.

Every lawmaker is going to vote against 'party lines' at some point in his or her career. Political parties represent basic ideologies on governing in general and about issues in particular. If Miller campaigned as a Democrat, was financed as a Democrat and was elected as a Democrat but never votes as a Democrat, then is he representing the views of the people who voted him into office? Why didn't he run as a Republican since that's how he votes? Also, Senate and committee majority/minority leaders are determined by the party makeup of the Senate. He's not helping the Republicans, who he votes with, by calling listing himself as a Democrat.

It's a shame votes have to be made on party lines. Because of this line of thinking, we currently have an obscene amount of federal judge nominations being held up after nearly 3 years of the current administration. Somewhere in all this party bickering we, the American people, are getting royally screwed. I would bet our founding fathers had a different idea about governement for a free nation.

There are only two that are/have been held up, as far as I know. As of 10/28, 167 of Bush's nominations have been confirmed. I think a look back into recent history might be surprising as you'd see that many, many Clinton nominations were not confirmed. As for our founding fathers, look into the history between Hamilton and Jefferson. We seem to have this fantasy that the founding fathers shared in some kind of love fest. Ideological dissention and political maneuvering are nothing new.

I for one welcome more Zell Millers. Not because they may be conservative but because they are not afraid to express the views of their constituents

I don't. Richard Shelby ran his first term as a Democrat and shortly thereafter switched party affiliations. If he's honest to begin with, maybe he doesn't get elected. I think Jim Jeffords handled that the most honorable way. When he got shafted by the Republican leadership, he became an Independent. His voting didn't change, but for a short while the Senate went back to the Democrats.

[CarolinaTiger 0]

Al, you still sound like you feel ZM duped or misled the voters who voted for him, and there simply isn't any proof of that.

again, he hasn't flipped on issues...and the voters of georgia knew what they were getting...and they still chose to elect him. i'd dare say he'd probably get re-elected as a democrat if he were to run again... are you saying the democratic party has no room for someone who votes their conscience? who may actually think for themselves?

as to why he didn't just go ahead and switch parties, he addressed that in his interview w/ hannity....

also, you've asked numerous times on thsi thread, "what's wrong w/ entitlements"...and while that wasn't addressed necessarily to me, here's my take on why people would object to entitlements.

first off, some entitlements are good...and taken individually, i'm sure you could make a compelling case for each & every one, yet taken as a whole, it's just another means by which the government becomes further involved in people's affairs...becomes larger...takes away from those who have and gives to those who don't have...with seemingly reckless abandonment. collectively, it's stepping toward socialism...cradle-to-grave gov't assistance...and that's what rubs me the wrong way.

ct

[Tiger Al 0]

Al, you still sound like you feel ZM duped or misled the voters who voted for him, and there simply isn't any proof of that.

again, he hasn't flipped on issues...and the voters of georgia knew what they were getting...and they still chose to elect him.  i'd dare say he'd probably get re-elected as a democrat if he were to run again... are you saying the democratic party has no room for someone who votes their conscience? who may actually think for themselves?

as to why he didn't just go ahead and switch parties, he addressed that in his interview w/ hannity....

also, you've asked numerous times on thsi thread, "what's wrong w/ entitlements"...and while that wasn't addressed necessarily to me, here's my take on why people would object to entitlements.

first off, some entitlements are good...and taken individually, i'm sure you could make a compelling case for each & every one, yet taken as a whole, it's just another means by which the government becomes further involved in people's affairs...becomes larger...takes away from those who have and gives to those who don't have...with seemingly reckless abandonment.  collectively, it's stepping toward socialism...cradle-to-grave gov't assistance...and that's what rubs me the wrong way.

ct

I don't know whether he misled those voters or not. It just seems strange that he would align himself with a party that he disagrees with, judging by his voting record. The Democratic Party has room for anybody, but your characterization that the tail wags the dog misses my point. I think you'd find it strange if I announced that I was running for office as a Republican, wouldn't you? My views aren't consistent with that party, so why would I align myself with it?

As for entitlements, I want to refer you to what I consider to be an excellent source of info on the liberal perspective on this issue. The tail isn't wagging the dog here, she just articulates the point better than I have the time or capacity to. And, you'll love her name! Auntie Pinko