The Deepening Crisis in Evangelical Christianity

[McLoofus 35,182]

59 minutes ago, triangletiger said:

To be fair, there have been many great men throughout history who were not necessarily 'good' men. (Though I don't consider Trump to be either.)

I agree with you. Maybe even most great men. And that applies to many disciplines beyond politics and leadership. 

The difference to me is that most of them haven't weaponized their shortcomings like Trump has. He carries the day by telling people that it's okay to be a filthy, hateful piece of s***. Many of his supporters still put up the facade like what we see in this thread. They might not even be conscious of how they truly feel.

And now with this "Send her back" stuff. They're not talking about "her", and they're not even talking specifically about Muslims. We really are in a precarious position right now. 

[Grumps 3,704]

2 hours ago, homersapien said:

Seriously?

I think we ALL want the president - Trump or whomever - "to do what they can to make the country better".

That has nothing to do with supporting a president who is a racist, misogynist, xenophobe. I don't understand how people could think Trump would be a good president.  He's certainly not a good person. 

I can only conclude the people who support him think a racist, misogynistic, xenophobic is going to be good for the country which says a lot about them.

 

I think we ALL want the president - Trump or whomever - "to do what they can to make the country better".

Then you are obviously racist, you Trump supporter!

What do you mean by support the president? Does it mean contribute to his campaign? Does it mean go to his rallies? Does it mean want him to do what he can to make the country better?

I keep reading how racist I am because I want Trump to make the country better (that is subjective). I think he is a horribly flawed person. I wish he would never make a tweet again. I think he is rude to ANYONE who threatens him. People like your are intentionally being vague so that they can make more people they disagree with seem to be vile. NOTHING Trump has done offends me more than when he made fun of Rick Perry's wife's mental condition. Only a REALLY small person would do such a thing. But rather than call Trump out in all of the areas where he REALLY is disgusting, people make up stuff to bash him for.

[Grumps 3,704]

1 hour ago, McLoofus said:

I agree with you. Maybe even most great men. And that applies to many disciplines beyond politics and leadership. 

The difference to me is that most of them haven't weaponized their shortcomings like Trump has. He carries the day by telling people that it's okay to be a filthy, hateful piece of s***. Many of his supporters still put up the facade like what we see in this thread. They might not even be conscious of how they truly feel.

And now with this "Send her back" stuff. They're not talking about "her", and they're not even talking specifically about Muslims. We really are in a precarious position right now. 

I completely agree with  your post. The problem, from my more conservative side, is that now is the time for the democrats to be a little bit more moderate and use some common sense coming into the election. Now is not the time for democrats to try to give everyone free healthcare and a living wage and free college and abortions for everyone at any time. Now is the time to just focus on being decent people. There are many conservative who can't stand Trump but think that spending the country into oblivion even faster might be worse than having a filthy, hateful POTUS.

[McLoofus 35,182]

33 minutes ago, Grumps said:

I completely agree with  your post. The problem, from my more conservative side, is that now is the time for the democrats to be a little bit more moderate and use some common sense coming into the election. Now is not the time for democrats to try to give everyone free healthcare and a living wage and free college and abortions for everyone at any time. Now is the time to just focus on being decent people. There are many conservative who can't stand Trump but think that spending the country into oblivion even faster might be worse than having a filthy, hateful POTUS.

The fact that you find most of those concepts- especially free healthcare- counter to decency says it all. Not to mention that a focus on decency is exactly what drives, well, any decent person's opposition to Trump. 

This thread reads like satire.

[McLoofus 35,182]

Also, "But Dems"?  We didn't vote for him. Stay on track lest you further expose the lack of ground you have to stand on.

[Grumps 3,704]

49 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

The fact that you find most of those concepts- especially free healthcare- counter to decency says it all. Not to mention that a focus on decency is exactly what drives, well, any decent person's opposition to Trump. 

This thread reads like satire.

Fair enough. I understand what you think about me and people like me. But is it decent to spend money that you don't have to do good things for people? I actually love people. I have dedicated my life to helping people. I might even be a "decent" person in some people's eyes. But I will never be in favor of destroying the country in order to give them free stuff, even if it is good stuff and stuff they need and want. I suppose it is easier to call all of us indecent and deplorable than to try to understand us and work together.

And for the record, though it may seem like I am just sucking up, I love your posts. I never question your honesty. It is refreshing!

[McLoofus 35,182]

33 minutes ago, Grumps said:

Fair enough. I understand what you think about me and people like me. But is it decent to spend money that you don't have to do good things for people? I actually love people. I have dedicated my life to helping people. I might even be a "decent" person in some people's eyes. But I will never be in favor of destroying the country in order to give them free stuff, even if it is good stuff and stuff they need and want. I suppose it is easier to call all of us indecent and deplorable than to try to understand us and work together.

And for the record, though it may seem like I am just sucking up, I love your posts. I never question your honesty. It is refreshing!

I also appreciate the way you carry yourself in conversations. 

I fail to see how free healthcare would destroy our country. Or really do anything but make it better. And the gamble certainly seems preferable to telling your children you knowingly voted for a morally bankrupt racist. Are you deplorable? Probably not. But that choice was.

[homersapien 11,382]

17 hours ago, Grumps said:

I think we ALL want the president - Trump or whomever - "to do what they can to make the country better".

Then you are obviously racist, you Trump supporter!

What do you mean by support the president? Does it mean contribute to his campaign? Yes Does it mean go to his rallies? Yes Does it mean want him to do what he can to make the country better? No, that's just a hope or aspiration, it's not "support".

I keep reading how racist I am because I want Trump to make the country better (that is subjective). That's a BS characterization.  One is racist if they agree with or approve of his racism. 

I think he is a horribly flawed person. I wish he would never make a tweet again. I think he is rude to ANYONE who threatens him. People like your are intentionally being vague so that they can make more people they disagree with seem to be vile. NOTHING Trump has done offends me more than when he made fun of Rick Perry's wife's mental condition. Only a REALLY small person would do such a thing. But rather than call Trump out in all of the areas where he REALLY is disgusting, people make up stuff to bash him for.

I was speaking in principle.  I hope that wanting the POTUS to make the country better is pretty much a general sentiment.

But I have no expectation that Trump will make the country better. He's doing the exact opposite.

By "support" I mean accepting or approving the vile and despicable things he regularly says.  By doing so, you put yourself in the same place.

And one doesn't need to make up anything to bash Trump.  He provides an insight into his soul almost every single day.

[toddc 13,194]

This is a desperate attempt to shame people to not vote for Trump. Trump has done more for the “citizens “ of this country in two plus years than others did in eight! I can back him for things he is doing for the good of all people (black, brown , white) without agreeing with some of the tweets. 

[TitanTiger 20,498]

18 minutes ago, toddc said:

This is a desperate attempt to shame people to not vote for Trump.

Hard to shame people who don't possess it in the first place.

 

18 minutes ago, toddc said:

Trump has done more for the “citizens “ of this country in two plus years than others did in eight!

 

18 minutes ago, toddc said:

I can back him for things he is doing for the good of all people (black, brown , white) without agreeing with some of the tweets. 

In other words, "I can act differently toward his awful behavior than I would any Democrat who did the same because in the end, I never cared about character or moral uprightness (no matter what I said about Bill Clinton at the time).  I just care about political power."

[McLoofus 35,182]

26 minutes ago, toddc said:

This is a desperate attempt to shame people to not vote for Trump. Trump has done more for the “citizens “ of this country in two plus years than others did in eight! I can back him for things he is doing for the good of all people (black, brown , white) without agreeing with some of the tweets. 

They're his words and thoughts. That is how he chooses to represent himself to the American people. That is either who he is or who he thinks the American people want their President to be. Stop saying "the tweets" as though that somehow separates those comments from the man himself. Much more significant are his actions and things that he actually says- in conversations, on camera, at rallies, wherever. The fact that you and so many of his supporters try to mitigate who he is and what he thinks by referring to "the tweets" is a big part of the problem. 

It's not an attempt to shame you. It's an appeal to your sense of decency and morality. The response, however, is indeed shameful. Supporting this man without acknowledging the moral and un-Christian compromise you've made is very much a shame you will carry forward. 

By all means, though, be specific about what he's done for Americans. Be specific about what it is, who it's benefited, and how it has outweighed the negatives of his presidency. 

[DKW 86 7,425]

The people that support him are in reality supporting their hatred of the US Political Elites. They have sold their souls to confront what they see as DC completely ignoriing them and their problems for years. The evangelicals have truly sold their souls, morals, integrity, character, and ethics. 

Its funny but Steyer's Ad addresses the problem. He is of course as much a part of the Political Elite as one can be and everyone should grasp that. 

California Wall Street Hedgefund Billionaire in Blue Cotton Shirt and a Barn trying to act like he gives a damn about Middle America.

[toddc 13,194]

27 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

They're his words and thoughts. That is how he chooses to represent himself to the American people. That is either who he is or who he thinks the American people want their President to be. Stop saying "the tweets" as though that somehow separates those comments from the man himself. Much more significant are his actions and things that he actually says- in conversations, on camera, at rallies, wherever. The fact that you and so many of his supporters try to mitigate who he is and what he thinks by referring to "the tweets" is a big part of the problem. 

It's not an attempt to shame you. It's an appeal to your sense of decency and morality. The response, however, is indeed shameful. Supporting this man without acknowledging the moral and un-Christian compromise you've made is very much a shame you will carry forward. 

By all means, though, be specific about what he's done for Americans. Be specific about what it is, who it's benefited, and how it has outweighed the negatives of his presidency. 

The lowest unemployment rate for blacks, Hispanic, women in history! Growing wages! Trying to end ageless wars! Getting millions off of food stamps and unemployment! Passing legislation for early prisoners released! Repairing veterans health care! Best stock market ever! Trying to protect the border! Etc etc etc etc etc.....

[toddc 13,194]

53 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

In other words, "I can act differently toward his awful behavior than I would any Democrat who did the same because in the end, I never cared about character or moral uprightness (no matter what I said about Bill Clinton at the time).  I just care about political power."

Actually, I thought BClinton got a raw deal and was one of the only Democratic presidents in my lifetime, other than JFK, that I had a lot of agreement with! I don’t agree with the moral character of most politicians! I do believe that they will answer to God one day, and judgment is His because only He knows their intent and heart. By all means if you are perfect and know their true intentions then congratulations, you’re a  god!

[Grumps 3,704]

6 hours ago, homersapien said:

I was speaking in principle.  I hope that wanting the POTUS to make the country better is pretty much a general sentiment.

But I have no expectation that Trump will make the country better. He's doing the exact opposite.

By "support" I mean accepting or approving the vile and despicable things he regularly says.  By doing so, you put yourself in the same place.

And one doesn't need to make up anything to bash Trump.  He provides an insight into his soul almost every single day.

Thank you for clarifying.

[toddc 13,194]

3 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

other words, "I can act differently toward his awful behavior than I would any Democrat who did the same because in the end, I never cared about character or moral uprightness (no matter what I said about Bill Clinton at the time).  I just care about political power."

I must have missed the thread where you called out Ilhan Omar and Rashid Tlib for their anti Semitic tweets and words and legislation! I also missed the one where you called out Obama for his immigration policies that are close to Trump or the people in cages during his presidency.

[TitanTiger 20,498]

25 minutes ago, toddc said:

I must have missed the thread where you called out Ilhan Omar and Rashid Tlib for their anti Semitic tweets and words and legislation! I also missed the one where you called out Obama for his immigration policies that are close to Trump or the people in cages during his presidency.

Whataboutism isn't a rebuttal.  Whether or not anyone exhaustively covers the bad things other people say has zero bearing on the bad impact of things Trump says.  Didn't we all learn this as young children?  Mom catches you doing something you were told not to do, so to get out of trouble you tell on your brother for doing the same thing or something equally bad.  Does that make what you did any less bad?

Try again.

[toddc 13,194]

5 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Whataboutism isn't a rebuttal.  Whether or not anyone exhaustively covers the bad things other people say has zero bearing on the bad impact of things Trump says.  Didn't we all learn this as young children?  Mom catches you doing something you were told not to do, so to get out of trouble you tell on your brother for doing the same thing or something equally bad.  Does that make what you did any less bad?

Try again.

😂 You literally did that in your post about Clinton above!! 😂 Maybe you should try again.

[TitanTiger 20,498]

19 minutes ago, toddc said:

😂 You literally did that in your post about Clinton above!! 😂 Maybe you should try again.

*sigh*

Another person who fails to understand what whataboutism is and isn't.

Quote

Whataboutism, also known as whataboutery, is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument,^[1][2][3]which in the United States is particularly associated with Soviet and Russian propaganda.^[4][5][6] When criticisms were leveled at the Soviet Union during the Cold War, the Soviet response would often be "What about..." followed by an event in the Western world.^[7][8][9]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

I am not justifying anything Clinton did.  In fact, I'm not attempting to justify anything.  Whataboutism is when someone points out something wrong/immoral that a person or group has said or done, but instead of showing how they are wrong in that accusation, you simply say "you did it too!" or try to point out some other bad things someone else did.  You avoid even addressing what your guy did and just try to deflect to what someone else did.

What Whataboutism is *not* is saying, "Hey, you guys used to say that <insert bad/immoral action> was terrible and people who did it shouldn't be trusted.  Now you support someone who does those very things?  What gives?"

[toddc 13,194]

37 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

*sigh*

Another person who fails to understand what whataboutism is and isn't.

I am not justifying anything Clinton did.  In fact, I'm not attempting to justify anything.  Whataboutism is when someone points out something wrong/immoral that a person or group has said or done, but instead of showing how they are wrong in that accusation, you simply say "you did it too!" or try to point out some other bad things someone else did.  You avoid even addressing what your guy did and just try to deflect to what someone else did.

What Whataboutism is *not* is saying, "Hey, you guys used to say that <insert bad/immoral action> was terrible and people who did it shouldn't be trusted.  Now you support someone who does those very things?  What gives?"

Man you’re so smart. I reacted to you saying I would criticize a Democrat/Clinton but not Trump. I said you do the same thing with Trump and not Democrats. 😂 You accused me of doing what you had already done! It’s called equating.

[TitanTiger 20,498]

17 minutes ago, toddc said:

Man you’re so smart. I reacted to you saying I would criticize a Democrat/Clinton but not Trump. I said you do the same thing with Trump and not Democrats. 😂 You accused me of doing what you had already done! It’s called equating.

I think you’re confused. Might I suggest you reread?

[toddc 13,194]

5 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

Hard to shame people who don't possess it in the first place

Attack, attack! Come on man/woman!

[triangletiger 1,599]

On 7/18/2019 at 4:31 PM, McLoofus said:

I agree with you. Maybe even most great men. And that applies to many disciplines beyond politics and leadership. 

The difference to me is that most of them haven't weaponized their shortcomings like Trump has. He carries the day by telling people that it's okay to be a filthy, hateful piece of s***. Many of his supporters still put up the facade like what we see in this thread. They might not even be conscious of how they truly feel.

And now with this "Send her back" stuff. They're not talking about "her", and they're not even talking specifically about Muslims. We really are in a precarious position right now. 

I guess my question would be is this a condemnation on Trump or a condemnation on where we are as a society?  Conditions in our society (i.e., polarization and bunkering  into different political and ideological factions and an unwillingness to consider an opposing point of view) had to be just so in order for Trump’s ‘weaponization of his shortcomings’ to be seen as a positive attribute.  And, while I do think that plenty of blame can be heaped upon Trump for pouring gasoline on the fire, the problems we have existed before he ever came on the scene.  Trump’s election as POTUS is a symptom of our problem as a society, not the problem itself.

[DKW 86 7,425]

 

15 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

Whataboutism isn't a rebuttal.  Whether or not anyone exhaustively covers the bad things other people say has zero bearing on the bad impact of things Trump says.  Didn't we all learn this as young children?  Mom catches you doing something you were told not to do, so to get out of trouble you tell on your brother for doing the same thing or something equally bad.  Does that make what you did any less bad?

Try again.

On this one there is a subtle but important difference. Todd is talking about what some Trump supporters are looking at:
SUPPORTING what trump is DOING,
IGNORING what trump is SAYING.

I personally take offense and nausea at what the bastich SAYS. He has however DONE somethings that actually make it hard to criticize, at least on a few topics.

1) He got the kid home from N Korea, although he was a vegetable.
2) He has N Korea talking again, instead of posturing and going nowhere.
3) At least temporarily, the Economy and Wall Street is doing better. how long that will last is open to discussion.
OTOH...
4) His turning his back on the LGBTQ Community is unforgiveable. 
5) His attacks on Patriotism of others is just a joke. He never served in the military, etc. Disgracing McCain et al is also unforgiveable.

I guess my point is that some can support trump for a few things he DID, and ignore what he says. 
Today, what any politician SAYS should just be laughed at. There is so much hyperbole out there it is silly to waste too much time on it. 
trump is a human hyperbole manufacturing machine.

Startling Realization: If he werent President, trump would make a a very popular talking head on MSNBC or Fox. trump would make a great Crowder, RusHannity, Levin guest. 

 

[homersapien 11,382]

2 hours ago, triangletiger said:

I guess my question would be is this a condemnation on Trump or a condemnation on where we are as a society?  Conditions in our society (i.e., polarization and bunkering  into different political and ideological factions and an unwillingness to consider an opposing point of view) had to be just so in order for Trump’s ‘weaponization of his shortcomings’ to be seen as a positive attribute.  And, while I do think that plenty of blame can be heaped upon Trump for pouring gasoline on the fire, the problems we have existed before he ever came on the scene.  Trump’s election as POTUS is a symptom of our problem as a society, not the problem itself.

They are not mutually exclusive.

I agree, the roots of political demagoguery run deep in this country and preceed Trump.  Many were nurtured in my lifetime - George Wallace, Nixon's Southern Strategy, Lee Atwater, Willie Horton, Obama birtherism. 

(Funny how so many of these roots are tied to the South and racism, huh?)

But electing a president who is "pouring gasoline on the fire" is a problem.  It won't be solved by simply pointing out he didn't start it.

He's certainly taken it to a new level - the only question left is how far can it go before our democracy completely unravels? 

So focusing on getting Trump out of office may not solve the original problem but it's an obvious place to start.  Supporting him just worsens the problem, short and long term.