Chizik 2010 vs Harsin 2022 recruiting

[McLoofus 35,182]

2 minutes ago, Viper said:

From our team’s standpoint, outside of Cam, that class gave us Dyer & Mosley, two badly needed pickups.

Fannin was not the answer, esp with his fumble issues. Being he started 8 games, it was a minor miracle Dyer hit the 1000 yard mark and broke Bo’s Freshman record all with Cam & O-Mac soaking up numerous carries.

Mosley because we needed an OT with experience to fill the lone missing spot on a veteran O-Line. At that time, I don’t think anyone had him getting drafted higher than Ziemba (Round 7). So he was a huge pickup.

And Dyer, legit talent that he was, got kicked off the team before making it to his junior season. 

I know the info and the context for that class, which is why I made the initial point I did. 

[Rednilla 5,391]

On 12/16/2021 at 11:51 AM, gr82b4au said:

I know this is from a long time ago but I want to say I agree with you 100%… Except if you bring in a generational player like cam Newton, it changes everything. 
We put that player on an average team and won a national championship. I think that if you put cam Newton on this year’s team, we would be in the playoff. 
But overall for the program, I agree 100%
 

I don't know that I would call it an average team, necessarily. That offensive line was pretty damned good. I still maintain that the experience coming back on the line was a, if not the, primary reason for Cam coming to Auburn. Dyer was outstanding that year. The receivers weren't spectacular, but they were solid. I think we would have pushed for 10 wins with an average QB. 

[McLoofus 35,182]

4 minutes ago, Rednilla said:

I don't know that I would call it an average team, necessarily. That offensive line was pretty damned good. I still maintain that the experience coming back on the line was a, if not the, primary reason for Cam coming to Auburn. Dyer was outstanding that year. The receivers weren't spectacular, but they were solid. I think we would have pushed for 10 wins with an average QB. 

Seven games decided by 1 score. Five games decided by a field goal or less. 

An average QB on that team *might* have gotten us to 8 wins. 

[AuburnNTexas 7,148]

One key thing in comparing classes is looking at all factors. In 2010 we did not have the GA juggernaut with Kirby just the Bam juggernaut with Saban and we did not have A&M as the top team in recruiting in the country it is a totally different landscape. Add into the fact the Portal was not really a factor back then (Cam was a JUCO) and it has changed the dynamic as we now try and save positions for the Portal which we didn't do then. 

Edited December 21, 2021 by AuburnNTexas

[Rednilla 5,391]

17 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Seven games decided by 1 score. Five games decided by a field goal or less. 

An average QB on that team *might* have gotten us to 8 wins. 

I was thinking 9 with a bowl win. I keep thinking that if we hadn't been able to sign Cam, the coaches would have done whatever they had to in order to keep Tyrik Rollison on the roster, and how he could have been a spark plug, too. And, again, that offensive line was just REALLY good, and it was going to make whoever was at QB and RB look pretty danged good.

Plus, by game 4, we were getting everybody's best shot, because we weren't sneaking up on anybody. We probably don't face quite as stiff of competition down the stretch if we're not undefeated with clearly the best player in the country on the team.

Meh, looking back on the season now, you're probably right, because that was a rough schedule. I just keep coming back to this one virtually incontrovertible fact of football: the game is won and lost on the line of scrimmage. And we were pretty stout on both lines. That's generally winning football.

[Viper 3,132]

1 hour ago, McLoofus said:

Cam was a lightning strike farted by a unicorn. Harsin will not be afforded the insane stroke of luck that Eugene was. 

I don’t believe it’ll ever be duplicated by any program ever again. Burrow was as effective as Cam was, but it took him two seasons to get there. 

[Rednilla 5,391]

9 minutes ago, AuburnNTexas said:

One key thing in comparing classes is looking at all factors. In 2010 we did not have the GA juggernaut with Kirby just the Bam juggernaut with Saban and we did not have A&M as the top team in recruiting in the country it is a totally different landscape. Add into the fact the Portal was not really a factor back then (Cam was a JUCO) and it has changed the dynamic as we anow try and save positions for the Portal which we didn't do then. 

Well, to be fair, Florida still had Urban Meyer at that point, too, so they were a recruiting juggernaut, but I would still rate the recruiting landscape more perilous in the SEC now than it was then.

[McLoofus 35,182]

2 minutes ago, Viper said:

I don’t believe it’ll ever be duplicated by any program ever again. Burrow was as effective as Cam was, but it took him two seasons to get there. 

Burrow had a far, faaaaaar superior team around him. He wouldn't have put up nearly comparable numbers on that 2010 Auburn team. 

Two first round WRs, a first round RB, a 2nd round WR, three OLs taken in the top 4 rounds... Burrow is damned good but he had way way way more help. 

That said, I totally agree with the point you're making.

[Viper 3,132]

54 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

And Dyer, legit talent that he was, got kicked off the team before making it to his junior season. 

As @Rednilla stated above, the 2010 O-Line was really good. Without them minus Mosley, we saw how good Dyer was in 2011. As legendary as Cam was, if he had come back in 2011, we don’t win more than 10 games reg season. Likely just 9, losing to LSU, GA & bammer. That’s how important that O-Line was.

[Viper 3,132]

25 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Burrow had a far, faaaaaar superior team around him. He wouldn't have put up nearly comparable numbers on that 2010 Auburn team. 

Two first round WRs, a first round RB, a 2nd round WR, three OLs taken in the top 4 rounds... Burrow is damned good but he had way way way more help. 

That said, I totally agree with the point you're making.

Agreed. Funny thing is…as much talent as 19 LSU had, they barely scraped by a Freshman led Nix team with Boobie & DJ Williams at RB…at home. On that day, 2010 AU beats them.

[Viper 3,132]

42 minutes ago, Rednilla said:

I was thinking 9 with a bowl win. I keep thinking that if we hadn't been able to sign Cam, the coaches would have done whatever they had to in order to keep Tyrik Rollison on the roster, and how he could have been a spark plug, too. And, again, that offensive line was just REALLY good, and it was going to make whoever was at QB and RB look pretty danged good.

Trotter was enough of a game manager, 2010 would have won 9-11 games reg season with him and likely still ends up in ATL. Plenty of experience around him.

[Rednilla 5,391]

2 minutes ago, Viper said:

Trotter was enough of a game manager, 2010 would have won 9-11 games reg season with him and likely still ends up in ATL. Plenty of experience around him.

That's right, I forgot Trotter was on that team. And he was a sophomore, wasn't he? I don't know that we were ever going to win 11 regular season with Trotter, though. And I don't know that we beat Bama in T-town, which would have kept us from going to Atlanta.

But I don't think it's all that unreasonable to think we could have ridden that line to a double digit win season, which is above average for Auburn (whether we like it or not).

[Viper 3,132]

45 minutes ago, Rednilla said:

That's right, I forgot Trotter was on that team. And he was a sophomore, wasn't he? I don't know that we were ever going to win 11 regular season with Trotter, though. And I don't know that we beat Bama in T-town, which would have kept us from going to Atlanta.

But I don't think it's all that unreasonable to think we could have ridden that line to a double digit win season, which is above average for Auburn (whether we like it or not).

Trotter was a Junior in 2010 because 2011 was his final season. 

Remember bammer lost to SC & LSU. AU could have afforded only a loss to bammer (and even Clemson) to get to ATL.

Maybe LSU beats AU w Trotter because their secondary was a treasure of gold with Peterson, Claiborne & Honey Badger, forcing Dyer, Fannin & O-Mac to shoulder the load.

Our 2010 O-Line, A-Z, was maybe the best O-Line in AU history. No 1st or 2nd Rounders, but not a weak link among the five guys. 2004 & 2013 had more singular talent, but 2010 was super cohesive and had their assignments down pat.

Edited December 21, 2021 by Viper

[McLoofus 35,182]

1 hour ago, Viper said:

Without them minus Mosley, we saw how good Dyer was in 2011.

Minus them- nowhere near as good as the bama and uga OLs of the last decade, but still pretty good!- and Cam, and with no passing game to pull defenders out of the box:

Quote

Dyer finished the 2011 regular season, his sophomore year, with 1,242 yards rushing on 242 attempts, an average of 5.1 yards-per-carry. He rushed for 10 touchdowns and averaged 103.5 yards-per-game. He was named to the Associated Press' All-SEC first team and the Coaches' All-SEC first team.

This is a weird conversation. I don't know that anyone is speaking the same language and it has nothing to do with where it started. I think I'm going to stop participating. 

[Viper 3,132]

6 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Minus them- nowhere near as good as the bama and uga OLs of the last decade, but still pretty good!- and Cam, and with no passing game to pull defenders out of the box:

This is a weird conversation. I don't know that anyone is speaking the same language and it has nothing to do with where it started. I think I'm going to stop participating. 

Hypotheticals are difficult to pinpoint. Take Player X off this team and how do they finish. Put Player Y on this team and how do they finish. I enjoy the discussion.

McElroy has always maintained on his sports show that without Cam, AU was a 7-win team. I’ve always disagreed because AU won 8 games in 2009 and 2011. How, to him, do we finish the same, or worse, than those two seasons with a loaded Senior class in 2010? Too much talent on that team to finish with a mediocre record.

[Rednilla 5,391]

28 minutes ago, Viper said:

Trotter was a Junior in 2010 because 2011 was his final season. 

Well, it was his third year, at least. It just seems like he should have had a redshirt in either 08 or 09. But it's not unheard of for a guy to graduate and move on with life rather than riding the bench (which I doubt he would have done the whole year in 2012, had he been on the team) for his senior season.

But, you're probably right that he saw action enough to void a redshirt his first two years.

28 minutes ago, Viper said:

Remember bammer lost to SC & LSU. AU could have afforded only a loss to bammer (and even Clemson) to get to ATL.

I remembered Bama having 2 SEC losses going into the Iron Bowl, because I remember knowing we'd already won the West, but I just don't see us going through that SEC slate without losing until the Iron Bowl with Barrett at the helm.

28 minutes ago, Viper said:

Maybe LSU beats AU w Trotter because their secondary was a treasure of gold with Peterson, Claiborne & Honey Badger, forcing Dyer, Fannin & O-Mac to shoulder the load.

Arkansas dropped 43 on our defense; would we have been able to keep up? Mississippi State nearly beat us in game 2 at Davis-Wade. There were plenty of places we possibly would have slipped up without SuperCam to push us over the top.

28 minutes ago, Viper said:

Our 2010 O-Line, A-Z, was maybe the best O-Line in AU history. No 1st or 2nd Rounders, but not a weak link among the five guys.

This cannot be expressed robustly enough. That line was the definition of a cohesive unit. Except Mosely, they'd all played together for the last 3 years.

[McLoofus 35,182]

22 minutes ago, Rednilla said:

But it's not unheard of for a guy to graduate and move on with life rather than riding the bench (which I doubt he would have done the whole year in 2012, had he been on the team) for his senior season.

Bingo. Trotter gave up football because he just didn't want to play anymore. He left eligibility on the table. He became a dentist or something. 

And, yes, our terrible team and coaching after 2010- folks forget that Gus was absolutely awful in 2011- had a lot to do with it. 

[Viper 3,132]

2 hours ago, Rednilla said:

Well, it was his third year, at least. It just seems like he should have had a redshirt in either 08 or 09. But it's not unheard of for a guy to graduate and move on with life rather than riding the bench (which I doubt he would have done the whole year in 2012, had he been on the team) for his senior season.

But, you're probably right that he saw action enough to void a redshirt his first two years.

I remembered Bama having 2 SEC losses going into the Iron Bowl, because I remember knowing we'd already won the West, but I just don't see us going through that SEC slate without losing until the Iron Bowl with Barrett at the helm.

Arkansas dropped 43 on our defense; would we have been able to keep up? Mississippi State nearly beat us in game 2 at Davis-Wade. There were plenty of places we possibly would have slipped up without SuperCam to push us over the top.

This cannot be expressed robustly enough. That line was the definition of a cohesive unit. Except Mosely, they'd all played together for the last 3 years.

Great points everywhere.

You’re right. It was Trotter’s 3rd year in 2010. He was a Redshirt Soph in 2010. Redshirted in 2008. 

Who knows what we could have done in 2010 w Trotter. We know this…we lost 37 players off the 2010 team and Trotter won 8 games in 2011. That’s impressive. 

Every HC that’s ever coached (other than maybe Spurrier) has been guilty of playing up or down to his competition. Petrino loved to run it, but knew he had to throw to keep up with AU. Plus he had the receiving weapons to do so. If Trotter had been our QB, does Petrino throw it 49 times? Highly doubt it. Doesn’t mean it’s a W with Trotter. Just an observation of Petrino. But he def would attack your weak spot and our’s was def our secondary.

There were lots of slip spots that season. Thankfully Cam played for us. I know this…when our D wanted to clamp down…always in the 2nd half…they clamped down. The UK game was the only game they didn’t or couldn’t late in the 2nd Half. Credit to Randall Cobb. Without Cam, would they have had more of a sense of urgency sooner in games?

[Viper 3,132]

2 hours ago, McLoofus said:

folks forget that Gus was absolutely awful in 2011

The unprecedented attrition of 2010 was the chief factor. To win 8 games with the scraps they had was remarkable.

[Rednilla 5,391]

15 hours ago, Viper said:

Every HC that’s ever coached (other than maybe Spurrier) has been guilty of playing up or down to his competition. Petrino loved to run it, but knew he had to throw to keep up with AU. Plus he had the receiving weapons to do so. If Trotter had been our QB, does Petrino throw it 49 times? Highly doubt it. Doesn’t mean it’s a W with Trotter. Just an observation of Petrino. But he def would attack your weak spot and our’s was def our secondary.

Yeah, this is why I'm so leery of that bit about how close all those games were with Cam, and how we wouldn't have won hardly anything without him. Coaches gameplan for the team they have and the team they're facing. We wouldn't have done things the same way without a bulldozer with a rocket attached playing QB, but that doesn't mean the things we did wouldn't have been effective. Almost certainly not AS effective, but as you pointed out, the other teams would have played a different game, too. It's the Butterfly Effect from Chaos Theory: you change one thing, and you change the entire evolution of everything related to that thing.

[McLoofus 35,182]

Lol. Y'all are giving Eugene and Gustav WAY too much credit. 

[Rednilla 5,391]

12 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Lol. Y'all are giving Eugene and Gustav WAY too much credit. 

Eugene and Gustav won 8 games in 2011 without any of the major contributors to the national championship except for Dyer. Let us not allow the end of their careers at Auburn to make us completely jilted toward them. Gus, especially, had not quite been figured out at that point in his career.

Besides, it's not Malzahn and Chizik we're giving credit to. It's the 25+ seniors you were neglecting when you said we'd have been lucky to win 8 without Cam. Are you sure you haven't just listened to the bammer narrative too much?

[McLoofus 35,182]

1 minute ago, Rednilla said:

Eugene and Gustav won 8 games in 2011 without any of the major contributors to the national championship except for Dyer. Let us not allow the end of their careers at Auburn to make us completely jilted toward them. Gus, especially, had not quite been figured out at that point in his career.

Besides, it's not Malzahn and Chizik we're giving credit to. It's the 25+ seniors you were neglecting when you said we'd have been lucky to win 8 without Cam. Are you sure you haven't just listened to the bammer narrative too much?

Oh dear. 

-I have not dismissed the seniors at all. 2011 was Chizik's 3rd year. That's, we'll call it, 2 1/2 recruiting classes. Remember, this whole conversation started with someone trying to claim that 2010 class was something special. 

-They won 8 games. Yay! They lost to our 3 main rivals by a combined score of 132-31. That's attrition and piss poor coaching. Also, are *you* sure you just haven't forgotten that 2012 was right around the corner for Eugene?

-I'm sorry, but the whole "coaches play down to their competition" thing isn't giving credit to... coaches? 

-Please don't be little brother Auburn guy who thinks any objective commentary on Auburn that happens to be negative is somehow resultant from bama's influence. Please don't do that. I'd like to think you're better than that. 

[Viper 3,132]

9 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Lol. Y'all are giving Eugene and Gustav WAY too much credit. 

They won 14 games in one season. Lost zero.

Think about it this way…of all the incredibly talented teams dink has had, including at LSU, how many times has he lost zero in one season?

I’m not hoisting Chiz & Gus into the annals of CFB lore, but it’s dang hard to do. Just ask the GOAT across the state.  

[McLoofus 35,182]

2 minutes ago, Viper said:

They won 14 games in one season. Lost zero.

Think about it this way…of all the incredibly talented teams dink has had, including at LSU, how many times has he lost zero in one season?

I’m not hoisting Chiz & Gus into the annals of CFB lore, but it’s dang hard to do. Just ask the GOAT across the state.  

Buddy, I was done chasing your goalposts yesterday. The point literally changes with every post you make. I regret re-entering this conversation.