Mask mandates - help me understand

[Leftfield 2,617]

I ask this, with complete sincerity, to anyone here who is against mask mandates for schools: Please help me understand why you believe they should not be implemented.

I can understand some of the fears regarding vaccination. However, I can't find any downside to students and staff all being masked, particularly because the vaccine is not available to those under 12. I understand the discomfort and irritation that goes along with wearing a mask, but there are obviously far greater concerns, considering the anger and vitriol I see from many parents that are fighting them. Is this a concern about government interference, or is there something else I'm missing?

[SLAG-91 1,483]

The cloth masks that the vast majority of people wear are damn near worthless. Point to a RCT (observational studies are typically not great at establishing cause and effect) that indicates mask usage has a statistically significant impact on reduction of Covid spread...crickets. There are many other factors that affect the spread of a respiratory virus.

From a practical standpoint, kids tend to not wear them correctly, they pull them down, pull them up, pull them down, pull them up...ad infinitum. There is not a good seal on most of them. Young kids (or anyone, really) that need to wear glasses? Their glasses get fogged up from hot breath that comes up through the top, but since they don't want to get in trouble, they take their glasses off. (One of the most futile things I've done in the last 18 months was at the eye doctor...tried to have me read aloud a statement on a piece of paper while wearing one of those crap paper masks...I'd start to read it and my glasses would fog. 😐)

They touch their face, touch their phone (which is germy), take it off to eat lunch with a whole bunch of their closest friends (no social distancing happening then, trust me), put it in a pocket, etc.

Teachers...the folks doing a fair bit of talking because it's part of their job. I imagine most of you who have or had to wear a mask to work don't speak regularly, or if you do, maybe you're in a cubicle where you can unmask every now and then. Mask gets damp, and filtration degrades along with it.

If this were going to be done in a meaningful way, everyone would be wearing high-quality masks (expensive), change them out often (more expense), but it's just not practical, and more to the point, there's no science behind it.

Let's go to something much worse than Covid for kids...RSV

To date, 354 children 17 and under have died with/of Covid. I would be willing to bet that a significant majority of those had a significant co-morbidity.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#SexAndAge

RSV is orders of magnitude worse. Kills between 100-500 kids under 5 every year. Some of you may have had your kids come down with RSV, and that is some legitimately scary s*** for a parent and kid.

Link

Let's check the CDC guidance for RSV, shall we?

• Avoid close contact with sick people
• Wash their hands often with soap and water for at least 20 seconds
• Avoid touching their face with unwashed hands
• Limit the time they spend in child-care centers or other potentially contagious settings, especially during fall, winter, and spring. This may help prevent infection and spread of the virus during the RSV season

RSV prevention

No mention of masking...hmmmm. Surely if masking was effective, it would have been included, since RSV is demonstrably more deadly to kids than Covid. Just an oversight? Doubtful.

"RSV is endemic already", you say. So is Covid.

As for mask mandates, not my thing. I'm for the ultimate local control...the individual. It should be left to the parents as to whether they want to send their kid to school in a mask. If most of them do so, then there's your de facto mandate without saying a word, no muss, no fuss. Speaking only for myself and my area, a significant majority of students are in masks now.  

I'm not a fan of EOs in general, but as I've said elsewhere, if you're going to play the EO game, I'm OK with one that keeps the ability of the individual to choose intact.

Some may agree, some will disagree, and some may be less than polite in response. 

[Leftfield 2,617]

Thank you for responding.

I understand there are plenty of other factors that affect transmission, but why does that mean that one factor that helps should be dismissed? Wouldn't that be even more of a reason to encourage it?

You give plenty of reasons that it would be uncomfortable, and I've already admitted it would be. You also say it wouldn't be practical, but kids were already wearing masks last school year, so this is not something new. Transmission clearly declined with the measures that were in place. Is there any reason to think that would not be the case this time?

Additionally, RSV and Covid is an apples-to-oranges comparison. RSV, as you said, is far more more prevalent in children 5 and under, and mainly dangerous to those 2 and younger (And yes, it's scary as hell. Two of my kids had it and my youngest had a severe case when she was only 6 months old. It terrified me.) Most of the age groups in danger aren't even going to school, although admittedly many are in child care. However, RSV is also an established illness that, from what I have read, does not have the ability to mutate anywhere close to as rapidly as Covid. Covid is obviously still mutating, and as scientists are pointing out, the risks posed by the early mutations may swing wildly, before eventually settling into a fairly steady-state. So while it is widespread, I have not seen where the scientific community considers it endemic. 

I think people also tend to ignore the psychological aspects of mask wearing that can help. It is a constant reminder that you need to be careful and try to keep distance from others, practice good hygene, and generally be aware of what's going on.

These seem to be the basic reasons you stated you're against masks:

1. There is no controlled scientific study that proves masks work

2. They're uncomfortable, fog up glasses (I wear readers and put them on top of my mask on my nose to avoid fogging) and not all kids will use them properly

3. We don't mask for other illnesses

The 2nd and 3rd don't seem to be reasonable arguments for dismissing masks. For the 1st, forgive me, but my opinion is that if the CDC said that masks provided no protection for anyone, without citing an RCT, you would be completely comfortable with that because it supports what you want to hear The basis for this opinion is your final point, which is that you believe parents should have control over the decision to wear masks.

And to that last point, I still don't see how you can fail to consider the impact on others. Does it mean nothing to you that if you're wrong, others can be harmed? Why should freedom of choice have priority over all else? We don't allow people to harm others through other poor decisions, such as drunk driving. Why should this be any different?

If the CDC and a vast majority of scientists are wrong, there is still no harm done by masking up.

 

[SLAG-91 1,483]

Drunk driving is against the law. Passing along Covid in the course of normal daily activities is not.

If there were verifiable evidence from any source that cloth masks were effective in reducing spread, then it would have been shouted from the rooftops and skepticism would be much less justified. One of the epidemiologists on Biden's team admitted on CNN that cloth masks weren't effectiv. He then went on to say that people should be using the N95s, which aren't cheap and have to be replaced frequently.

That is my primary issue with trying to mandate something like this...no hard data that they're actually effective in a statistical sense in a real-world environment.

I'd argue that the biggest benefit for some people is psychological. If you feel safer because you're wearing a mask and it improves your overall outlook, then go for it. Ironically enough, my absence of a mask at work (we have no mandate in place at the moment) keeps people at arm's length or further (along with my natural grump-face, the male version of resting bitch face 😁), which also works. Win-win.

Private businesses can do what they want, and people will vote with their pocketbooks. 

Enforcement of a mask mandate is something to be considered, too...how much time, manpower and effort do you put into pursuing actual charges for whatever the consequence is for violating said mandate? I'd rather our local DA and law enforcement focus their energy elsewhere.

Appreciate the civil back and forth. Actually felt good to get some of it out of my system.

[Leftfield 2,617]

Thanks again. I appreciate someone at least giving reasons other than just yelling it's against their rights.

Drunk driving is against the law, but that's my point: it's something that's known to harm others. If the scientific community is saying masks work, but someone refuses to mask up and they infect another person that dies, would the result not be the same? The drunk driver doesn't intend to kill anyone, but they know they are taking a risk. How is this any different? I'm not saying masks should be written into the legal code, but certainly mandates in times of public health crises should be a viable option, particularly if the public can't be trusted to protect themselves and/or each other.

Two other quick points. First, it appears the focus is still only on mortality rate, and the other potential effects are being ignored. Many that are infected have long-term issues. Also, asymptomatic children can still carry the virus to others that are more vulnerable, even if the children themselves aren't affected. In any event, spread would be harmful because it allows more opportunity for mutation.

Second, the reason no controlled study has proven the effectiveness of masks may simply be due to the newness of the disease. Has a study even been carried out yet? I haven't seen one that disproves effectiveness, either. If it hasn't been proven either way, would it not behoove us to follow the recommendations, which are at least based on the available evidence? Or at the very least, err on the side of caution? When things change rapidly, decisions sometimes have to be made without as much evidence as we'd like. Again, I don't see any downside, at least regarding long-term effects.

[homersapien 11,393]

An evidence review of face masks against COVID-19

https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118

Edited August 13, 2021 by homersapien

[McLoofus 35,182]

14 hours ago, SLAG-91 said:

The cloth masks that the vast majority of people wear are damn near worthless. Point to a RCT (observational studies are typically not great at establishing cause and effect) that indicates mask usage has a statistically significant impact on reduction of Covid spread...crickets. There are many other factors that affect the spread of a respiratory virus.

From a practical standpoint, kids tend to not wear them correctly, they pull them down, pull them up, pull them down, pull them up...ad infinitum. There is not a good seal on most of them. Young kids (or anyone, really) that need to wear glasses? Their glasses get fogged up from hot breath that comes up through the top, but since they don't want to get in trouble, they take their glasses off. (One of the most futile things I've done in the last 18 months was at the eye doctor...tried to have me read aloud a statement on a piece of paper while wearing one of those crap paper masks...I'd start to read it and my glasses would fog. 😐)

They touch their face, touch their phone (which is germy), take it off to eat lunch with a whole bunch of their closest friends (no social distancing happening then, trust me), put it in a pocket, etc.

Teachers...the folks doing a fair bit of talking because it's part of their job. I imagine most of you who have or had to wear a mask to work don't speak regularly, or if you do, maybe you're in a cubicle where you can unmask every now and then. Mask gets damp, and filtration degrades along with it.

If this were going to be done in a meaningful way, everyone would be wearing high-quality masks (expensive), change them out often (more expense), but it's just not practical, and more to the point, there's no science behind it.

Let's go to something much worse than Covid for kids...RSV

To date, 354 children 17 and under have died with/of Covid. I would be willing to bet that a significant majority of those had a significant co-morbidity.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#SexAndAge

RSV is orders of magnitude worse. Kills between 100-500 kids under 5 every year. Some of you may have had your kids come down with RSV, and that is some legitimately scary s*** for a parent and kid.

Link

Let's check the CDC guidance for RSV, shall we?

• Avoid close contact with sick people
• Wash their hands often with soap and water for at least 20 seconds
• Avoid touching their face with unwashed hands
• Limit the time they spend in child-care centers or other potentially contagious settings, especially during fall, winter, and spring. This may help prevent infection and spread of the virus during the RSV season

RSV prevention

No mention of masking...hmmmm. Surely if masking was effective, it would have been included, since RSV is demonstrably more deadly to kids than Covid. Just an oversight? Doubtful.

"RSV is endemic already", you say. So is Covid.

As for mask mandates, not my thing. I'm for the ultimate local control...the individual. It should be left to the parents as to whether they want to send their kid to school in a mask. If most of them do so, then there's your de facto mandate without saying a word, no muss, no fuss. Speaking only for myself and my area, a significant majority of students are in masks now.  

I'm not a fan of EOs in general, but as I've said elsewhere, if you're going to play the EO game, I'm OK with one that keeps the ability of the individual to choose intact.

Some may agree, some will disagree, and some may be less than polite in response. 

I work at a hospital and we are required to wear those "crap paper masks" and only those crap paper masks at all times. Not sure how people got it in their heads that they're less effective than other non-N95s. Also, they're very inexpensive.

Can you cite any actual damage from mask mandates? They might not be as effective as you would have them be, but can you cite a meaningful downside?

Also, you got a negative "reaction" from me because you, like so many, seem to somehow still struggle with the "personal decision" fallacy. Despite your numbers, you all still need to be reminded that it is indeed a fallacy. You may also support my right to repeatedly fart in a crowded elevator, but it doesn't mean that I would be right in doing so. 

[AU9377 4,977]

Why mask mandates in schools?  I'll share what a friend of mine that teaches 9th grade shared with me.

When you say that it should be up to the parent, what does that mean?  That assumes that a parent is with the child all day.  Well, that can't be the case because we know parents are not with their children all day at school.  Does anyone believe that their child will wear their mask all day while other children do not?  The chance of that happening isn't very good.  Parents entrust their kids to the teachers and administrators at school for the time that they are on school property.  Do they expect teachers to make a list of the students and check a box so that they know the parental choice concerning face masks and thereafter use that list to enforce the parent's choice during class?  That isn't feasible.  Having a uniform policy of wearing face masks is feasible.

Why isn't a dress code considered to be a parental choice?  If Jenny's dad says she can wear short shorts, should she not be allowed to wear them?  We all know why, yet the ability to enforce a dress code uses the same reasoning as the ability to enforce a mask mandate.  There has to be some degree of uniformity in order to enforce the policy.  Some masks are more beneficial than others, but all masks provide some positive benefit .  If someone's daughter called and said they were driving home and that they had a choice between wearing a seatbelt that worked 40% of the time or to not wear a seat belt at all, what would you tell them?

[jj3jordan 2,056]

A mask would cover the facial expression of a 6 year old learning how to become a tranny in case they feel like a different sex one day.

[Leftfield 2,617]

1 hour ago, jj3jordan said:

A mask would cover the facial expression of a 6 year old learning how to become a tranny in case they feel like a different sex one day.

Congratulations. In the history of your pathetic replies, you've found a way to sink lower. 

[jj3jordan 2,056]

49 minutes ago, Leftfield said:

Congratulations. In the history of your pathetic replies, you've found a way to sink lower. 

I like to be the best. Thank you. 

[cole256 17,084]

You can buy spray that stops glasses from fogging up or if you like life hacks you can simply wipe sanitizer of dish detergent or hand soap on the lens with a paper towel and no more fog. It's not a big deal at all

[AU9377 4,977]

4 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

A mask would cover the facial expression of a 6 year old learning how to become a tranny in case they feel like a different sex one day.

Because, in your mind, you actually think about that when you think about kids at school? Or is this the subject Hannity spent time on today?

[jj3jordan 2,056]

11 hours ago, AU9377 said:

Because, in your mind, you actually think about that when you think about kids at school? Or is this the subject Hannity spent time on today?

So much furor over masks for children when they are teaching all kinds of evil in schools. Use of a mostly useless mask pales.  Didn’t expect you or your  dim bulb leftist friends to get it. Now I have proof.

[Leftfield 2,617]

12 minutes ago, jj3jordan said:

So much furor over masks for children when they are teaching all kinds of evil in schools. Use of a mostly useless mask pales.  Didn’t expect you or your  dim bulb leftist friends to get it. Now I have proof.

Please expound on the evils being taught.

Masks are not mostly useless.

I am not a leftist, though people like you are certainly pushing me, and many others who once leaned right, in that direction. 

[ShocksMyBrain 9,368]

3 minutes ago, Leftfield said:

Please expound on the evils being taught.

Masks are not mostly useless.

I am not a leftist, though people like you are certainly pushing me, and many others who once leaned right, in that direction. 

$100 says CRT is one of those “evils”. 

[AU9377 4,977]

2 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

So much furor over masks for children when they are teaching all kinds of evil in schools. Use of a mostly useless mask pales.  Didn’t expect you or your  dim bulb leftist friends to get it. Now I have proof.

What evil are you talking about?  None of the sort is being taught in any school I know of in Georgia or Alabama.  My guess is that the media you consume knows just how to get you riled up and keep you that way.  They love to grab some example from across the country and imply that it is the norm.  The subject seldom deserves status as breaking news.  What it does serve to do is to galvanize their viewers into an us and them mentality that ensures they won't lose interest in their programs.

Edited August 14, 2021 by AU9377

[homersapien 11,393]

1 hour ago, AU9377 said:

What evil are you talking about?  None of the sort is being taught in any school I know of in Georgia or Alabama.  My guess is that the media you consume knows just how to get you riled up and keep you that way.  They love to grab some example from across the country and imply that it is the norm.  The subject seldom deserves status as breaking news.  What it does serve to do is to galvanize their viewers into an us and them mentality that ensures they won't lose interest in their programs.

You bring up another point often overlooked.  Schools are governed by local control.

Pushing government down to the local level used to be a Republican value.  Instead, governors - such as DeSantis are taking authority away from the local area (school districts) and trying to mandate control from a central authority. All for the sake of his own politics.

[Mims44 1,878]

23 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

A mask would cover the facial expression of a 6 year old learning how to become a tranny in case they feel like a different sex one day.

 

22 hours ago, Leftfield said:

Congratulations. In the history of your pathetic replies, you've found a way to sink lower. 

Awww come on Left. It was dumb as hell. But it did make me laugh  

 

 

To the OP, I find it hilarious that these parents of kids who get my kids sick cause they send them to school with 102 degree temps and puking, just cause F it, they don't wanna deal with them. Are likely the same ones screaming about not wearing masks. I say make every kid wear masks in school forever. There's only so many times you can hear from your kid 'Dave threw up beside me in school this morning' before you start seriously considering home school.

[SLAG-91 1,483]

Looks like more of that damned science changing overnight...babies start lip-reading pretty early, actually.

Some daycares mandate masks for toddlers as young as 2. That's weapons-grade lunacy.

[ShocksMyBrain 9,368]

My county just reinstated mask mandates. I can’t wait to deal with asking/telling customers to wear a mask.
/s

This s*** is going to be such a nightmare in terms of how my employees/myself are going to be treated. 

Edited August 19, 2021 by ShocksMyBrain

[McLoofus 35,182]

7 hours ago, ShocksMyBrain said:

My county just reinstated mask mandates. I can’t wait to deal with asking/telling customers to wear a mask.
/s

This s*** is going to be such a nightmare in terms of how my employees/myself are going to be treated. 

Keep waiting for the slide into insanity to stop or at least slow down but it's not happening.

Watched the live stream of this. Absolute mayhem. Thing is, as the article states, they made it clear at the top of the meeting that there was absolutely no mask mandate. This town is run by trumpers. 

Good luck, bro. 

https://www.wtoc.com/2021/08/18/hilton-head-council-finish-agenda-virtually-after-protesters-delay-meeting/

[McLoofus 35,182]

10 hours ago, SLAG-91 said:

Looks like more of that damned science changing overnight...babies start lip-reading pretty early, actually.

Some daycares mandate masks for toddlers as young as 2. That's weapons-grade lunacy.

No, what is lunacy is being opposed to extremely non-invasive precautionary measures for no legitimate reason whatsoever and scouring the internet looking for any nugget you can that supports your worldview.

I have a 2 yr old and I'd be delighted if everyone in his building was masked up. He has absolutely no problem wearing them. Most kids don't when asked because they haven't yet turned into spoiled, selfish, entitled adults who have spent the last 20 years stuffing their brains full of garbage.

My 6 yr old said not many kids at school are wearing theirs so far this year. "But I'm wearing mine because I'm a leader, not a follower." GD right. 

[ShocksMyBrain 9,368]

On 8/19/2021 at 6:33 AM, McLoofus said:

Keep waiting for the slide into insanity to stop or at least slow down but it's not happening.

Watched the live stream of this. Absolute mayhem. Thing is, as the article states, they made it clear at the top of the meeting that there was absolutely no mask mandate. This town is run by trumpers. 

Good luck, bro. 

https://www.wtoc.com/2021/08/18/hilton-head-council-finish-agenda-virtually-after-protesters-delay-meeting/

Mandate went officially live today/yesterday depending time zone 8/20. We were open 12 hours. My staff and myself have been cursed at by at least 10 grown adults in the 40-60 range because of the minor inconvenience. Already over it.

Edited August 21, 2021 by ShocksMyBrain