Merit vs. Diversity in Schools

[Son of A Tiger 587]

Another controversy going on in education. Your thoughts/opinions?

With Schools Ditching Merit for Diversity, Families of High Achievers Head for the Door | RealClearInvestigations

[GoAU 1,631]

Just my .02, but I prefer equality in standards and base it all on merit.  
 

I know, shocker, right…..

[icanthearyou 4,465]

"Merit" is a much more subjective term than most believe it to be.

 

[I_M4_AU 8,162]

51 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

"Merit" is a much more subjective term than most believe it to be.

 

In the instanced where there is defined standards, as in the merit awards, it is not as subjective.  Subjective can be used in promoting in a corporate setting, I agree.

[AUDub 11,259]

39 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

In the instanced where there is defined standards, as in the merit awards, it is not as subjective.  Subjective can be used in promoting in a corporate setting, I agree.

Merit is, in many ways, a delusion. The assumption that there’s a level playing field is an illusion. 

[I_M4_AU 8,162]

1 minute ago, AUDub said:

Merit is, in many ways, a delusion. The assumption that there’s a level playing field is an illusion. 

I would guess then the jobs you have attained had nothing to do with your ability (merit) to do the work at a high level.  Was there others the applied for the job you had that could do the job, but maybe not as well?  Why didn’t they get the job?

Do you deserve you job?  Are you the best man for it?

[homersapien 11,637]

1 hour ago, I_M4_AU said:

I would guess then the jobs you have attained had nothing to do with your ability (merit) to do the work at a high level.  Was there others the applied for the job you had that could do the job, but maybe not as well?  Why didn’t they get the job?

Do you deserve you job?  Are you the best man for it?

The best man in the whole world? 

I think that question makes Dub's point.

[AUfan_UAgrad 230]

I got my taste of this 2 years ago with my son applying for colleges and was very shocked.  You would think a National Merit Finalist, near perfect ACT and gpa, all the "nerdy" clubs/stuff, many many many service hours, captain of wrestling team his senior year which won state, and on football team would get into just about college out there.......... nope.  But many diversity students from his high school did get accepted into a few schools that he did not, who did not have near the credentials.  But in the end he ended up where he was suppose to I guess.

[Didba 5,298]

27 minutes ago, AUfan_UAgrad said:

I got my taste of this 2 years ago with my son applying for colleges and was very shocked.  You would think a National Merit Finalist, near perfect ACT and gpa, all the "nerdy" clubs/stuff, many many many service hours, captain of wrestling team his senior year which won state, and on football team would get into just about college out there.......... nope.  But many diversity students from his high school did get accepted into a few schools that he did not, who did not have near the credentials.  But in the end he ended up where he was suppose to I guess.

A lot of that stuff doesn't matter as much anymore.  I have been told by law school admission faculty that they see so many students with all the things you have stated but what sets kids apart from the pack is the personal statements, writing examples, etc.

So if your son isn't the strongest writer that could definitely have had an impact. 

Not saying its the right way to go about things, just passing it on.

SCOTUS has severely limited the role race can play in school admissions. From what I remember from law school race cannot be a determining factor in whether a kid is accepted over another kid, all it can be is factor in the overall portfolio. Also, racial quotas or anything similar are outright barred from use, I think that was Bakke v UCLA, or maybe the Michigan case.

Edited January 6, 2023 by Didba

[Didba 5,298]

IMO, schools should strive for diversity because it enriches the classroom setting to learn and hear people's experiences from different backgrounds and walks of life but it shouldn't be at the detriment of merit and it shouldn't be at the detriment of another applicant solely based on race, which actually is unconstitutional.

[I_M4_AU 8,162]

1 hour ago, homersapien said:

The best man in the whole world? 

I think that question makes Dub's point.

Oh please. 

[creed 1,687]

1 hour ago, Didba said:

IMO, schools should strive for diversity because it enriches the classroom setting to learn and hear people's experiences from different backgrounds and walks of life but it shouldn't be at the detriment of merit and it shouldn't be at the detriment of another applicant solely based on race, which actually is unconstitutional.

Just wondering how diversity (race in general) enriches some elemetary, middle school and high school classes. For example the various math type classes. How does one's experience change the presensentaion, interpretation and methods of mathimatical preceision? Now, I can see how it would be advatages to other classes, such as art, drama, political science, but I don't see how any race related diversity enriches reading, writing and math subjects.

Edited January 6, 2023 by creed

[AUfan_UAgrad 230]

1 hour ago, Didba said:

A lot of that stuff doesn't matter as much anymore.  I have been told by law school admission faculty that they see so many students with all the things you have stated but what sets kids apart from the pack is the personal statements, writing examples, etc.

So if your son isn't the strongest writer that could definitely have had an impact. 

Not saying its the right way to go about things, just passing it on.

SCOTUS has severely limited the role race can play in school admissions. From what I remember from law school race cannot be a determining factor in whether a kid is accepted over another kid, all it can be is factor in the overall portfolio. Also, racial quotas or anything similar are outright barred from use, I think that was Bakke v UCLA, or maybe the Michigan case.

I hear what you are saying but his writing skills were not the issue, was recognized multiple times through his HS career for some of his writing.
Just another case from my personal experience, someone I work with from time to time in ATL has twins, a boy and girl.  Boy had better test scores, more extracurricular stuff, service stuff, blah blah..... his dad even told me his son is more rounded person then his daughter.  Guess which one got in to UGA and which one did not?  And yes, they are white so even gender can play a factor.  Again, I hear what you are saying but to say that race or even gender does not or cannot play a role in acceptance I just have a hard time believing, seeing as they are used to promote diversity.  Since it's being used to promote diversity to me means that your race can play a factor in to your acceptance and if it can play a factor in your acceptance then it most certainly can play a factor in you not getting accepted.  I get there are laws that are to protect against things like this but who is checking on college acceptance other than how many minority vs majority candidates were taken?  If they would actually tell you why you were not accepted, then maybe things would become clear or prove me wrong.  And no, I'm not just a parent of college kid, both my parents combined had over 50yrs of services at UofA.  I know for every one of my examples someone has their own personal experiences where a minority or a female was not accepted but should have been.  It is unfortunate sometimes the world we live in.  If race isn't to play a part, then there should not be a box to check.

He ended up where he was supposed to and is having an awesome time at college.  So, in the end it worked out and he is happy as am I.

Edited January 6, 2023 by AUfan_UAgrad

[autigeremt 6,794]

From what I’ve been hearing from teachers it’s a district by district problem. 

[GoAU 1,631]

8 hours ago, AUDub said:

Merit is, in many ways, a delusion. The assumption that there’s a level playing field is an illusion. 

If using objective criteria, I’m not sure I agree.  I guess if you try and go all the way back through where someone is born, genetics or the parents, etc you can always find something else to blame things on.  
 

in absence of merit, what do you propose? 

5 hours ago, Didba said:

IMO, schools should strive for diversity because it enriches the classroom setting to learn and hear people's experiences from different backgrounds and walks of life but it shouldn't be at the detriment of merit and it shouldn't be at the detriment of another applicant solely based on race, which actually is unconstitutional.

Don’t disagree, but unfortunately this happens quite a bit.  Take Ivy League school admissions for example.  
 

 

 

[homersapien 11,637]

20 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

Oh please. 

So, you either missed my point, you take the phrase "best man for the job" literally, or perhaps both.

Edited January 7, 2023 by homersapien

[AURex 2,085]

Our Founding Fathers were VERY clear on the fact that a Republic (or as we refer to our system today, a Democracy) depends TOTALLY on an educated citizenship. Thus they supported public education as a means to assure an educated citizenship.

Well, back then, women and minorities were not real people. They weren't voting citizens. But the basic tenet of our Founding Fathers remains. Public education that assures a well informed, well educated populace remains the foundation of our country.

The whole notion of meritocracy in high schools is a sham. Our high schools should be assuring that ALL of the youth of our country are well educated and able to analyze/reason at a functional level.

The idea of excluding children from a well-rounded education is anathema to the basic foundations of our country. And BTW, this includes ALL youth -- not just the children of gun toting, bible toting, Trumpist denialists. ALL children, of ALL religious beliefs, ALL political persuasions, ALL sexual identities, ALL racial heritages, deserve -- and according to our founding fathers should be provided -- a quality education.

Denying youth the benefit of the highest quality education simply because they do not score as high on some test or because they didn't adequately impress some white teacher -- this is totally opposite of the entire concept of our founding fathers, to assure a well educated citizenry. The reality of our world is that some children are not raised in an environment that emphasizes or supports learning. It is our societal need and requirement to elevate them educationally so that they may become, as our Founding Fathers proposed, an informed electorate and well-educated citizens of our great country.

 

Edited January 7, 2023 by AURex

[Didba 5,298]

12 hours ago, AUfan_UAgrad said:

I hear what you are saying but his writing skills were not the issue, was recognized multiple times through his HS career for some of his writing.
Just another case from my personal experience, someone I work with from time to time in ATL has twins, a boy and girl.  Boy had better test scores, more extracurricular stuff, service stuff, blah blah..... his dad even told me his son is more rounded person then his daughter.  Guess which one got in to UGA and which one did not?  And yes, they are white so even gender can play a factor.  Again, I hear what you are saying but to say that race or even gender does not or cannot play a role in acceptance I just have a hard time believing, seeing as they are used to promote diversity.  Since it's being used to promote diversity to me means that your race can play a factor in to your acceptance and if it can play a factor in your acceptance then it most certainly can play a factor in you not getting accepted.  I get there are laws that are to protect against things like this but who is checking on college acceptance other than how many minority vs majority candidates were taken?  If they would actually tell you why you were not accepted, then maybe things would become clear or prove me wrong.  And no, I'm not just a parent of college kid, both my parents combined had over 50yrs of services at UofA.  I know for every one of my examples someone has their own personal experiences where a minority or a female was not accepted but should have been.  It is unfortunate sometimes the world we live in.  If race isn't to play a part, then there should not be a box to check.

He ended up where he was supposed to and is having an awesome time at college.  So, in the end it worked out and he is happy as am I.

It does play a small factor, it cannot be the deciding factor (ie, one slot left, two applicants exactly the same, one is a woman, okay take her bc she is a woman and we need one more woan to raise our diversity), or the policy would be unconstitutional.  I apologize if I misspoke earlier and said it wasn't' a factor at all, been a long day

Edited January 7, 2023 by Didba

[Didba 5,298]

12 hours ago, creed said:

Just wondering how diversity (race in general) enriches some elemetary, middle school and high school classes. For example the various math type classes. How does one's experience change the presensentaion, interpretation and methods of mathimatical preceision? Now, I can see how it would be advatages to other classes, such as art, drama, political science, but I don't see how any race related diversity enriches reading, writing and math subjects.

I was speaking strictly about higher education. I am sorry, I should have clarified.

As for those subjects you listed, I agree with you on math at all levels but not English or Literature courses at the undergrad level or higher level (or AP high school courses). I agree with you on reading and writing below undergrad though. 

Edited January 7, 2023 by Didba

[Didba 5,298]

8 hours ago, GoAU said:

If using objective criteria, I’m not sure I agree.  I guess if you try and go all the way back through where someone is born, genetics or the parents, etc you can always find something else to blame things on.  
 

in absence of merit, what do you propose? 

Don’t disagree, but unfortunately this happens quite a bit.  Take Ivy League school admissions for example.  
 

 

 

That is the distinction between public and private higher education. 

[icanthearyou 4,465]

13 hours ago, GoAU said:

Don’t disagree, but unfortunately this happens quite a bit.  Take Ivy League school admissions for example.

Do you really believe those schools take either merit or, diversity very seriously? 

These are institutions of power and privilege.  In the end, they serve a very narrow, very powerful element of our society.

[icanthearyou 4,465]

IMHO, there is enough room for merit and diversity.  What we lack is a measure of character and integrity. 

Our country has far too many highly intelligent, highly educated sociopaths.  They are extremely destructive.

 

[GoAU 1,631]

6 hours ago, Didba said:

That is the distinction between public and private higher education. 

That is true, however how do you feel about things like Honors and Advanced classes?  My kids have always went to public schools, and most of the ones they have attended are getting rid of these classes out of fear of kids feeling “left out”.  This is ridiculous to me - teach the kids to the level they are best matched to.  
 

Believe it or not, I even got a letter from a school saying that they were having a pizza party for kids with perfect attendance (my did not, and therefore wouldn’t be attending) and in less than an hour the principal sent out an email apologizing to the parents that they wouldn’t be having this event to recognize perfect attendance because of some kids felling left out.  That’s so silly - raising snowflakes and kids that don’t feel like doing your best and going the extra mile will be rewarded.  

48 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

Do you really believe those schools take either merit or, diversity very seriously? 

These are institutions of power and privilege.  In the end, they serve a very narrow, very powerful element of our society.

That’s a pretty good point.  But I feel like somewhere in there, after the kids wiith pull are taken care of, there may be some seats for “regular people” like us.  

40 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

IMHO, there is enough room for merit and diversity.  What we lack is a measure of character and integrity. 

Our country has far too many highly intelligent, highly educated sociopaths.  They are extremely destructive.

 

This is a very true statement.  

[icanthearyou 4,465]

16 minutes ago, GoAU said:

That’s a pretty good point.  But I feel like somewhere in there, after the kids wiith pull are taken care of, there may be some seats for “regular people” like us.

There are if,,, you are capable of, and willing to be, a servant of capital.  Almost all must do, at the very least, an internship at Wall St.

IMHO, we no longer practice capitalism.  We practice something more like financialism.  Our system is no longer about competition and innovation.  Our system is about finance, consolidation, the absolute ability to meet debt obligations.  Finance, Wall St., is the real power in our society.  Even when they fail,,, they succeed. 

We deindustrialized and super financialized our economy.

[Son of A Tiger 587]

21 hours ago, Didba said:

IMO, schools should strive for diversity because it enriches the classroom setting to learn and hear people's experiences from different backgrounds and walks of life but it shouldn't be at the detriment of merit and it shouldn't be at the detriment of another applicant solely based on race, which actually is unconstitutional.

I can tell you for a fact that isn't true at Auburn. My daughter had a 4.0 at one of the best HS in Alabama and AU offered her nothing in the way of a scholarship. I talked to admissions and they said they had to give a certain % to minorities and it was already awarded so nothing left for merit alone. Get to know some retired officials (Provosts, Presidents, and Deans) and you will learn a lot about what goes on at AU in the academic world.

 

Edited January 7, 2023 by Son of A Tiger