Can we agree this deeply rooted in white supremacy?

[Mims44 1,879]

5 hours ago, homersapien said:

I'm curious.  What are you reasons for saying that?

(No details needed.  Does it have anything to do with the freed slaves who were following him on his "march to the sea"?)

If an American general razes huge swathes of land against a foreign enemy (which we've done) they are usually vilified nowadays as going above and beyond the call of duty and into un-needed cruelty. However a American general doing it to US soil has somehow become a thing to toast over and laugh about... just annoys me really.

[Mims44 1,879]

6 hours ago, homersapien said:

But, statues of historical figures - especially military heroes - placed in public spaces are invariably meant to honor that person for what they did and stood for.

That's quite different from putting up an artistic statue or sculpture.

I get that for sure.

I would say that if there are a bunch of these statues up for the purpose of riling up the south again, it's failed miserably  

The southern states are more destitute and reliant on federal aid than they ever were then.

[AUDub 11,158]

4 hours ago, Mims44 said:

If an American general razes huge swathes of land against a foreign enemy (which we've done) they are usually vilified nowadays as going above and beyond the call of duty and into un-needed cruelty. However a American general doing it to US soil has somehow become a thing to toast over and laugh about... just annoys me

He didn't do so needlessly. The strategic value of his actions hastened the end of the war.

These "huge swaths of land" were what was sustaining Lee's Army of Northern Virginia, and interruption of logistics and resource denial has been an acceptable practice in war as long as war has been a thing.

Edited June 12, 2023 by AUDub

[homersapien 11,393]

14 hours ago, Mims44 said:

If an American general razes huge swathes of land against a foreign enemy (which we've done) they are usually vilified nowadays as going above and beyond the call of duty and into un-needed cruelty. However a American general doing it to US soil has somehow become a thing to toast over and laugh about... just annoys me really.

I disagree. 

Sherman employed tactics that were the most effective way of winning the war.  It ensured a clear victory without the probability of a continued guerrilla war.  Sherman was a genius for recognizing that.  He was ahead of his time militarily speaking. (And no one "laughs" about it.)

The objective was to destroy Southern morale and eliminate their capability to wage war.  (There are dozens of books on the subject.)

And to your point, such tactics were repeated by the US in later wars - LeMay's bombing tactics against Japan being on obvious example.

Regardless, the south is responsible for what happened to it as a result of their starting the war, not Sherman. 

 

Edited June 12, 2023 by homersapien

[homersapien 11,393]

10 hours ago, AUDub said:

He didn't do so needlessly. The strategic value of his actions hastened the end of the war.

These "huge swaths of land" were what was sustaining Lee's Army of Northern Virginia, and interruption of logistics and resource denial has been an acceptable practice in war as long as war has been a thing.

Exactly.  Georgia was the "bread basket" of the confederacy at the time.

[AUDub 11,158]

4 minutes ago, homersapien said:

And to your point, such tactics were repeated by the US in later wars - LeMay's bombing tactics against Japan being on obvious example.

LeMay's decisions were FAR more "war crimey." E.G. bombing the northern burbs of Tokyo was pure terror.

[homersapien 11,393]

14 minutes ago, AUDub said:

LeMay's decisions were FAR more "war crimey." E.G. bombing the northern burbs of Tokyo was pure terror.

I am not indifferent to the morality - or war crime - argument. (For example, Dresden was immoral IMO.)

But it's important to put it in context. 

The Pacific land campaigns were providing plenty of justification to think of the war as requiring total annihilation of the enemy as the only strategy.  Invading Japan in it's entirety was virtually unthinkable.  Thus the atomic bombs (which were far less deadly than the fire bombings).

 

 

 

[PUB78 1,359]

On 6/11/2023 at 9:24 AM, cole256 said:

I mean if you dive deep into some of the called fore fathers of the country they don't seem to be the heroes everybody makes them out to be. I feel like I read about one of them may have very well been a serial killer.

And I really think you missed the overall point of what I was saying.....I was actually giving many of you passes so to speak. I'm saying many of you aren't racist but you all get so upset about the thought of a person speaking about racism that you actually cast a wall of protection for people that are actually racist.

I'm then saying maybe you all do that because you have people that you admire and care about that are racist and that's why you get so triggered about it. Because you get more triggered about someone being called racist than an actual act of racism.

And no I don't think everybody is racist. Once again that's not close to what I was saying. There are A BUNCH of racism in the Northwest Alabama region though.

But what I was speaking on was the monument and statue thing. This area will not let their Confederate and racist heroes go. And you can even look at how a freaking high school is named after the grand wizard of the kkk.....You can't argue that point. That's not me saying everybody is racist. I can't say anything on here without the first response from someone being the oh so you think everybody is racist comment.

I'm pretty much at the point that I wish you all would notice that I'm actually very smart and I don't just post without thinking and after all this time I haven't EVER called everybody racist, I probably won't ever. But I know that won't ever be the case......I just wish this could be discussed where people actually just would think. But I'm not able to have these discussions because if we are honest on this board I have certain prejudice and biases against me because I have the gall to even speak out about this stuff. I should just stop talking and pointing out the way of life everyone is so used to. Me talking actually makes me racist.

 

You can actually look at a basketball thread I posted. By pointing out a white guy is white one poster even wrote he hopes the guy doesn't see the thread saying he's white.....and a mod and other posters even liked it. That's where we are at on this board.

You are very smart and your posts are usually very good and informative. I think you put too much emphasis on race, but after you shared how you were treated by some, then I have a a lot of respect and empathy for you.

Keep your posts coming.

[PUB78 1,359]

1 hour ago, AUDub said:

LeMay's decisions were FAR more "war crimey." E.G. bombing the northern burbs of Tokyo was pure terror.

As they say, history is written mainly by the victorious. Although Sherman’s March to the Sea did help shorten the war, if the North had lost, then he would have been tried as a war criminal.

Or, the unfortunate superintendent of Anderson Prison.  Not having access to needed supplies for his Union prisoners, he was hanged after the war. All the while northern prisons were as harsh or worse than southern prisons.

[alexava 6,973]

On 6/8/2023 at 7:27 PM, cole256 said:

That's Athens area right? See? People can hate me all they want but they can't say Cole is a dummy. 

So you don't think it's a problem the kids up there a little past Lawrenceburg have to go to a school named after a freaking grand wizard of the kkk. People celebrate this man like he's really some kind of honorable hero.

But I actually made a post about stuff like this, IMO that's why many of you are so against anything being racist, it would mean that some would have to admit some people they admire and love were horrible people and they won't do that

I would prefer changing the name of the school named Forrest. I don’t know what the reason is for not changing it but to automatically assume it is white supremacy is presumptuous. What does that have to do with Athens or north Alabama? 
      How does this protect you from being a dummy?
      That’s what I’m talking about looking for something to be offended by. 

[cole256 17,084]

2 hours ago, alexava said:

I would prefer changing the name of the school named Forrest. I don’t know what the reason is for not changing it but to automatically assume it is white supremacy is presumptuous. What does that have to do with Athens or north Alabama? 
      How does this protect you from being a dummy?
      That’s what I’m talking about looking for something to be offended by. 

To automatically assume what is white supremacy is presumptuous? Please tell me you are not saying the not changing of the school name. If that is your example of looking for something to be offended by I'm sorry then you have a mental challenge. 

And this area is literally 30 minutes away if that.....it can be considered close enough to the community that it is the same community. Come on now

[Mims44 1,879]

On 6/12/2023 at 1:21 AM, AUDub said:

He didn't do so needlessly. The strategic value of his actions hastened the end of the war.

These "huge swaths of land" were what was sustaining Lee's Army of Northern Virginia, and interruption of logistics and resource denial has been an acceptable practice in war as long as war has been a thing.

Yes, 'total war' has been a thing for a long time. Deciding to go that route on home soil vs Americans that you outclass in every logistical category is overboard. 

Are you also a fan of GO#28?

20 hours ago, homersapien said:

I disagree. 

Sherman employed tactics that were the most effective way of winning the war.  It ensured a clear victory without the probability of a continued guerrilla war.  Sherman was a genius for recognizing that.  He was ahead of his time militarily speaking. (And no one "laughs" about it.)

The objective was to destroy Southern morale and eliminate their capability to wage war.  (There are dozens of books on the subject.)

And to your point, such tactics were repeated by the US in later wars - LeMay's bombing tactics against Japan being on obvious example.

Regardless, the south is responsible for what happened to it as a result of their starting the war, not Sherman. 

 

May want to look up sherman memes before declaring no one laughs about it. It's a pretty big meme. And all those same people actually despise LeMay for his tactics. Which is again why I take issue with it. There is a lot of hypocrisy around the subject.

Your last line isn't like you at all, and I imagine you didn't think it through. So I'll just ignore it.

[AUDub 11,158]

1 hour ago, Mims44 said:

Yes, 'total war' has been a thing for a long time. Deciding to go that route on home soil vs Americans that you outclass in every logistical category is overboard. 

Striking where your enemy is vulnerable is smart.

It's also probably in error to ascribe to it the moniker "total war." Though civilians did get caught up in the destruction Sherman explicitly ordered his army to avoid harming unoffending civilians and their and dwellings. 

That being said, Sherman's beliefs about war, reflected in his writings, are exemplified perfectly in his actions. He rightly considered war a great evil. In his opinion war should be brutal, effective and above all prompt.

Was he wrong? He did break the Confederacy's back. 

[Leftfield 2,617]

This is why a true war should be a last resort - it's horrible. You don't engage in it on a lark, but when you do you go in cold, efficient, and get it done as quickly as possible and by any means necessary. Civilian casualties are going to happen. If you don't want that, you don't call it a war.

[icanthearyou 4,463]

What Sherman did was nothing compared to the inhumanity of slavery. 

 

[homersapien 11,393]

7 hours ago, Mims44 said:

May want to look up sherman memes before declaring no one laughs about it. It's a pretty big meme. And all those same people actually despise LeMay for his tactics. Which is again why I take issue with it. There is a lot of hypocrisy around the subject.

Your last line isn't like you at all, and I imagine you didn't think it through. So I'll just ignore it.

Don't know what you mean by Sherman "memes".  All my knowledge of Sherman comes from histories (books) on him.

Also, I don't get your point about my last sentence - but it sounds as if it's coming from the school of  "War of Northern Aggression".

Edited June 13, 2023 by homersapien

[AUDub 11,158]

2 hours ago, homersapien said:

Don't know what you mean by Sherman "memes".  All my knowledge of Sherman comes from histories (books) on him.

[AUDub 11,158]

It's a silly thing Homer. People makes memes about Stonewall as the embodiment of confederate BDE, the others do a similar thing with Sherman.

[AUDub 11,158]

On 6/12/2023 at 12:46 PM, PUB78 said:

As they say, history is written mainly by the victorious. Although Sherman’s March to the Sea did help shorten the war, if the North had lost, then he would have been tried as a war criminal.

Maybe? But a LOT of people got away with war crimes. Hell, Jubal Early got off scot free. 

On 6/12/2023 at 12:46 PM, PUB78 said:

Or, the unfortunate superintendent of Anderson Prison.  Not having access to needed supplies for his Union prisoners, he was hanged after the war. All the while northern prisons were as harsh or worse than southern prisons.

There was few worse than Andersonville. 

[Mims44 1,879]

On 6/12/2023 at 11:34 AM, homersapien said:

Regardless, the south is responsible for what happened to it as a result of their starting the war, not Sherman. 

16 hours ago, homersapien said:

Also, I don't get your point about my last sentence - but it sounds as if it's coming from the school of  "War of Northern Aggression".

Sounds like a nice excuse for rape, murder, plunder, pillaging. With a 'oh well' you shouldn't have started a war with us then.

[AUDub 11,158]

2 hours ago, Mims44 said:

Sounds like a nice excuse for rape, murder, plunder, pillaging. With a 'oh well' you shouldn't have started a war with us then.

Rape and murder was the exception, not the norm. To the extent it was committed, it was more commonly the "bummers," not the regular army in the course of the march. 

As I said, his army was under strict orders to leave the unoffending populace be, and for the most part they did. 

It's also dumb to wrap up the common practice of foraging that came with supporting most armies during the period.

And regarding "you shouldn't have started a war with us then," damn right. The south's mouth wrote a check it's ass couldn't cash and Sherman was laser focused on making that abundantly clear. 

[Son of A Tiger 561]

Sherman war crimes:

Was Sherman a War Criminal? – Discerning History

Sherman convicted by his own words (ajc.com)

Edited June 14, 2023 by Son of A Tiger

[icanthearyou 4,463]

44 minutes ago, Son of A Tiger said:

Sherman war crimes:

Was Sherman a War Criminal? – Discerning History

Sherman convicted by his own words (ajc.com)

Why do you want to defend the south.  The cause of the south was utter inhumanity.  Those who fought for the south were useful idiots fighting for nothing other than the financial interests of the plantation/slave owners.

There is no way you can make the old South,,, righteous.

[alexava 6,973]

On 6/13/2023 at 1:17 AM, cole256 said:

To automatically assume what is white supremacy is presumptuous? Please tell me you are not saying the not changing of the school name. If that is your example of looking for something to be offended by I'm sorry then you have a mental challenge. 

And this area is literally 30 minutes away if that.....it can be considered close enough to the community that it is the same community. Come on now

Define white supremacy?

[cole256 17,084]

23 minutes ago, alexava said:

Define white supremacy?

You define it, you introduced it  into the conversation, what did you mean when you said it?

Edited June 14, 2023 by cole256