A battle of extremists

[TexasTiger 12,897]

It’s just a matter of degree. Hamas is, of course, despicable and needs to be eliminated. Utterly irredeemable. They use the Gazans as shields and props— they clearly don’t give a damn about them. Media should be more focused on not just their disregard for the Gazan people, but their intentional sacrifice of them. Gazans will never be free or prosper under Hamas— it’s not anywhere on their list of priorities.

But the media also needs to clarify that opposition to this Israeli government is not anti-Semitic. The government of the last 20 years is extremist and has no interest in a two state solution, no interest in lasting peace. Bibi let Hamas get entrenched and armed to the gills because having them as a foil served his purpose.  Bibi has fostered an his own version of from the river to the sea:

 

Much of the world’s opposition to how Israel’s government handles the Palestinians is because they see this reality better than most Americans see it. 
 

A lasting peace is hopeless with a functioning Hamas. It’s also hopeless with Likud in power in Israel. And Likud is partnered with even worse coalition partners. The Palestinians need better leadership. So does Israel.

[AUDub 11,149]

Man if there’s any particular individual that I’d avoid letting interview me it’s Isaac Chotiner. Few people out there are better about letting you open your own mouth and erase all doubt about being a fool. 

[AUDub 11,149]

“The world hates them” 

one of these days I’ll die of an irony overdose. 

[DKW 86 7,425]

Truckload of false equivalence here.

Who has turned down a two state solution 5X so far?

[icanthearyou 4,463]

Why does no one ever talk about Israeli settler violence against Palestinians?

Making this a single sided argument shows bias,,, not humanity.

[TexasTiger 12,897]

38 minutes ago, DKW 86 said:

Truckload of false equivalence here.

Who has turned down a two state solution 5X so far?

Didn’t make any equivalence. Read closer. Think critically. Don’t just reflexively react.

[homersapien 11,379]

22 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

Didn’t make any equivalence. Read closer. Think critically. Don’t just reflexively react.

Good luck with that!    (Good advice though.)

I pointed out the same point with David and he portrayed me as a lying Nazi. 

Hamas and Likud - particularly with Nentanyu - are both extremists.  As long as they control events in both countries there will be no peace.

Edited November 12, 2023 by homersapien

[TexasTiger 12,897]

16 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Good luck with that!    (Good advice though.)

I pointed out the same point with David and he portrayed me as a lying Nazi. 

Hamas and Likud - particularly with Nentanyu - are both extremists.  As long as they control events in both countries there will be no peace.

Both extremists, but far from equivalent.

[homersapien 11,379]

2 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Both extremists, but far from equivalent.

I agree, certainly not morally. 

But the body counts are similar - and will continue to be similar as long as they both control policy.

[icanthearyou 4,463]

22 hours ago, homersapien said:

But the body counts are similar

Are they?

[AU9377 4,935]

West Bank settlements are an issue.  However, there is no possibility of peace as long as the Islamic extremists continue to launch rockets toward Israel.  Long before the current war against Hamas, these rocket attacks have been a daily occurrence.    We can't look at this conflict academically and analyze the conflict as though the two actors are equivalents in some way, both with reasonable motives and goals. Hamas wants to show the world dead babies and bombarded hospitals.  They don't want to show their own actions in bringing the fighting to those locations. 

Civilian casualties are unfortunate, but they are also an unavoidable part of war.  There are consequences for the people of Gaza allowing the entrenchment of terrorist groups inside their society.  I'm certain many wish they weren't there, but they are and they have been for decades. The situation is complicated, but the decision of who to support is not.

[auburnatl1 4,935]

Extremist chicken  meets extremist egg problem.  I support Israel but they’ve begun to cross the moral line. Which extremists do.

Btw I still struggle with Hamas’ thinking and end game. Their demonic act was strategically irrelevant to achieving literally anything. Just pointless mentally ill murders - like a well organized mass shooting on steroids - but they didn’t do the obligatory kill themselves. 
 

Trying to understand crazy is useless. I’m just hoping it was a crazy issue and not something bigger.

 

Edited November 13, 2023 by auburnatl1

[TexasTiger 12,897]

8 hours ago, AU9377 said:

West Bank settlements are an issue.  However, there is no possibility of peace as long as the Islamic extremists continue to launch rockets toward Israel.  Long before the current war against Hamas, these rocket attacks have been a daily occurrence.    We can't look at this conflict academically and analyze the conflict as though the two actors are equivalents in some way, both with reasonable motives and goals. Hamas wants to show the world dead babies and bombarded hospitals.  They don't want to show their own actions in bringing the fighting to those locations. 

Civilian casualties are unfortunate, but they are also an unavoidable part of war.  There are consequences for the people of Gaza allowing the entrenchment of terrorist groups inside their society.  I'm certain many wish they weren't there, but they are and they have been for decades. The situation is complicated, but the decision of who to support is not.

You seem to keep equating Hamas with all Palestinians. The message to those rejecting Hamas in the West Bank is — we don’t care that you rejected Hamas. Read the quote for the settlement activist. She’s saying out loud the position of her government for decades.

[TexasTiger 12,897]

7 hours ago, auburnatl1 said:

Extremist chicken  meets extremist egg problem.  I support Israel but they’ve begun to cross the moral line. Which extremists do.

Btw I still struggle with Hamas’ thinking and end game. Their demonic act was strategically irrelevant to achieving literally anything. Just pointless mentally ill murders - like a well organized mass shooting on steroids - but they didn’t do the obligatory kill themselves. 
 

Trying to understand crazy is useless. I’m just hoping it was a crazy issue and not something bigger.

 

I think they’ve been pretty successful— look around the world. 

[AU9377 4,935]

3 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

You seem to keep equating Hamas with all Palestinians. The message to those rejecting Hamas in the West Bank is — we don’t care that you rejected Hamas. Read the quote for the settlement activist. She’s saying out loud the position of her government for decades.

Israel is not without blame for problems surrounding West Bank settlements.  As for Gaza, Israel is doing what it needs to do.  It is unfortunate that Hamas has placed the people of Gaza in this situation.  The interesting thing is that I see very few people from Gaza blaming Hamas.  This is an ugly situation, but I believe that the choice as to who we should support is very clear.

[TexasTiger 12,897]

11 minutes ago, AU9377 said:

Israel is not without blame for problems surrounding West Bank settlements.  As for Gaza, Israel is doing what it needs to do.  It is unfortunate that Hamas has placed the people of Gaza in this situation.  The interesting thing is that I see very few people from Gaza blaming Hamas.  This is an ugly situation, but I believe that the choice as to who we should support is very clear.

In regards to Israel, my original post focused primarily on their behavior in handling the West Bank. Not sure we have a good read on how many are blaming Hamas. I saw a video of a young girl blaming Hamas and that account is now closed. And there’s this:

https://themessenger.com/news/grieving-woman-in-gaza-has-her-mouth-covered-after-blaming-dogs-of-hamas-for-israeli-strike

[DKW 86 7,425]

I did reread and apologize. I am not going to do 2" of paragraphs calling you a liar and name calling, unlike some here that are NEVER WRONG <fer> even when they clearly are. I try to be one of the adults in the room, although I admittedly fail from time to time. This was obviously one of those times.

I am totally agreeing with Tex. These are clearly two different issues. If i could I would love to discuss them at completely differing times because there are those that will try and conflate them.

Gaza is the problem at the moment and has been a problem ever since the Jews pulled out. It was a bad idea that NEVER should have even been considered, AFTER KNOWING that Hamas would take over and stay there forever until destroyed. Gaza is a complete mess and what do you do now? The Gazans are going to elect Hamas again. They have shown that over the last 17 years. They have never removed nor even tried to organize to remove Hamas. Support for Hamas now polls well into 60+% range. The Israelis clear out Hamas, the Gazans will put them back in. And we start another 100 rounds of rocket attacks, counter attacks that kill civilians, rinse and repeat. Does Israel let the Gazans try a TSS again? I think not, but that is just me.

West Bank Solution is the end result of Gaza. Let the TSS go forward and what do you get? More Dead Jews and More Hatred and More endless rocket attacks, more blah blah blah. I can clearly see why some Israelis have just come to acknowledge the fact that they may never be able to co-exist with a TSS. If they cant co-exist with a TSS in Gaza, why even try in the West Bank? What if tomorrow Hamas moved into the West Bank? What then? Why even give them the chance or the option?

Hamas has treated the Gazans like cannon fodder. They want them to die to further the propaganda and god knows the absolute morons in the west fall for for it hook line and sinker day after day after day. The dont feed the Gazans. They dont care for the Gazans. They dont protects the Gazans with the miles of bomb proof, for the most part, tunnels. What does the Hamas Leadership say about this: "It is not Hamas' responsibility to protect the Gazans, it is the UN's responsibility to protect the Gazans."

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by DKW 86

[icanthearyou 4,463]

On 11/14/2023 at 12:06 AM, AU9377 said:

I believe that the choice as to who we should support is very clear

IMHO,,, we should not unconditionally support any nation.  We should support peace, justice, democracy, equality, humanity.  Those principles are the basis of freedom.

[autigeremt 6,635]

10 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

IMHO,,, we should not unconditionally support any nation.  We should support peace, justice, democracy, equality, humanity.  Those principles are the basis of freedom.

Puts us on a short list....especially when we don't adhere to it ourselves....but I like it!

[AU9377 4,935]

9 hours ago, icanthearyou said:

IMHO,,, we should not unconditionally support any nation.  We should support peace, justice, democracy, equality, humanity.  Those principles are the basis of freedom.

There are times that we are forced to sacrifice peace in order to preserve a society wherein ideals like equality and  justice can be worked toward attaining.  Democracy should be supported and encouraged, but the form of government is less important than the policies of that government and how those policies impact the basic human rights of its citizens. 

We destroyed cities all over Europe during WWII while seeking to destroy the Nazi army.  We were prepared to kill millions more in Japan with additional atomic bombs had they not unconditionally surrendered.  The choice wasn't easy, but it was a choice between American lives and defeating those that opposed our way of life.