Messianism: Not just for Obamaphiles anymore!

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

1 hour ago, Brad_ATX said:

You're talking about something COMPLETELY different than what Titan is talking about.  He was talking about how the support of some Christians and reconciliation/excusing of Trump's actions has affected how non-Christians view the church/religion.  Has nothing to do with voting.

He thinks that for a Christian to support Trump, they necessarily have to excuse or even celebrate sin - which is error. Just read his comments. Any other explanation simply “won’t be bought.” It has everything to do with the false generalizations people make of Christianity on the basis of imputing to others what some have said. Thus, my voting example is relevant to the matter. If there’s a problem, it is not Christianity - rather, it is imputing the words of a few to the whole. Only the one who is drawing the generalizations can control that. 

[homersapien 11,371]

16 hours ago, NolaAuTiger said:

That verse is about false teachers that tried to thwart Jesus’ followers while he was on earth and the one’s that would come after. Try incorporating proper exegesis and hermeneutics when you throw out scripture at whim.

Spoken like a true pharisee.   

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

1 minute ago, homersapien said:

Spoken like a true pharisee.

How so? Enlighten me. You seem to know so much about theology, and for that matter the substance of which you don’t even believe in.

[homersapien 11,371]

16 hours ago, NolaAuTiger said:

So if I’m a Christian and I support Trump’s presidency and believe he is doing a good job, I’ve somehow “made efforts at evangelism a lot harder?”

This is so typical of your style.  It's a disengenuous twisting of the point.

The issue is with Christians and so-called "leaders" who actively associate support of Trump with Christian ideals and goals.  It has little to do with any given Trump supporter who - incidentally - happens to self-identify as a Christian.

But you knew that already.  What a little weasel you are.

[homersapien 11,371]

15 hours ago, Proud Tiger said:

Biggest BS ever posted here. And you are so good as to be the judge of other Christians?

Trust me.  As a non-Christian outside observer, Titan is absolutely correct. 

The more these so called Christian leaders associate Trump with Christianity, the more Christianity will suffer in the eyes of everyone who sees Trump for what he his.

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

1 minute ago, homersapien said:

This is so typical of your style.  It's a disengenuous twisting of the point.

The issue is with Christian so-called "leaders" who actively associate support of Trump with Christian ideals and goals.  It has nothing to do with any given Trump supporter who - incidentally - happens to self-identify as a Christian.

But you knew that already.  What a little weasel you are.

The only Christian leaders you’re even aware of are those in the media though. Why do you draw your conclusions from them? How come you don’t actually decide for yourself whether or not mainstream Christian leaders are also in line with these who supposedly excuse Trump’s actions? What about John Piper, Matt Chandler, Francis Chan, etc? Any of the speakers from Passion Conference? Are they defending Trump’s personal flaws and excusing sin?

The truth is, you don’t want to look into it any further becuase your only concern is gathering every ounce of ammunition that will appease your ideology.

 

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

3 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Trust me.  As a non-Christian outside observer, Titan is absolutely correct. 

The more these so called Christian leaders associate Trump with Christianity, the more Christianity will suffer in the eyes of everyone who sees Trump for what he his.

Define “Christian leader” and substantiate how they “associate” with Trump. 

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

25 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

He thinks that for a Christian to support Trump, they necessarily have to excuse or even celebrate sin - which is error. Just read his comments. Any other explanation simply “won’t be bought.” It has everything to do with the false generalizations people make of Christianity on the basis of imputing to others what some have said. Thus, my voting example is relevant to the matter. If there’s a problem, it is not Christianity - rather, it is imputing the words of a few to the whole. Only the one who is drawing the generalizations can control that. 

Again, you're missing the point.  Its about what message is being sent to non-believers like myself.  I can tell you point blank that watching and  interacting with some Christians who excuse everything about Trump has pushed me further away from the church.  I have no interest in being a part of something that can condone such a level of hypocrisy.  Whether you like it or not, the actions of a few can reflect poorly on the whole.

I honestly don't care about how one votes.  I care that one's actions reflect his/her outward stances.  For example, telling me that Trump's admitted adulterous ways isn't a problem is a direct counter to one of the most basic laws of the church.  How am I, as a non-believer, supposed to then take that same person seriously when they try to witness to me about Christ?  I fully understand this isn't an "all Christians" thing.  But there are leaders of the church who are endorsing this behaviour despite what they teach every week from the pulpit.

[homersapien 11,371]

17 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

How so? Enlighten me. You seem to know so much about theology, and for that matter the substance of which you don’t even believe in.

It's self evident:  Telling someone how the should incorporate "proper exegesis and hermeneutics when interpreting scripture".

[homersapien 11,371]

13 hours ago, AUFAN78 said:

And if they elected Hildabeast all would be well?  Laughable.

What a specious comment.

 

[homersapien 11,371]

20 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

The only Christian leaders you’re even aware of are those in the media though. Why do you draw your conclusions from them? How come you don’t actually decide for yourself whether or not mainstream Christian leaders are also in line with these who supposedly excuse Trump’s actions? What about John Piper, Matt Chandler, Francis Chan, etc? Any of the speakers from Passion Conference? Are they defending Trump’s personal flaws and excusing sin?

The truth is, you don’t want to look into it any further becuase your only concern is gathering every ounce of ammunition that will appease your ideology.

 

Well, I've got you and your friends on this forum to consider.

Are you saying ya'll aren't legitmate representatives for your religion?

 

[homersapien 11,371]

12 hours ago, AUFAN78 said:

Given the choice, I am not buying what you are selling.  

You don't have to "buy it" to make it true.

[homersapien 11,371]

16 hours ago, NolaAuTiger said:

Also, the Bible doesn’t categorize sin. We are all equally guilty, per what the Bible teaches.

That's a classic rationalization for overlooking Trump's character and behavior in order to justify supporting him.

At least that's the way an "outsider" would see it.

 

[homersapien 11,371]

4 hours ago, Grumps said:

I agree with your post. The funny thing is that you don't know any of our interests either, but you still have claimed to know how we should vote or how we should feel. What exactly makes you capable of knowing how I should live my life when none of us are capable of know how you should live yours?

Hogwash.  Do you have an example of Elle telling someone how they should live their life?

This is a political forum.  Trump is the president.  He's also the most divisive president we have had in modern times.  If you can't stand to hear why supporting Trump is wrong, or if you feel that's tantamount to having someone tell you how to life your life, you are in the wrong place.

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

24 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

Again, you're missing the point.  Its about what message is being sent to non-believers like myself.  I can tell you point blank that watching and  interacting with some Christians who excuse everything about Trump has pushed me further away from the church.  I have no interest in being a part of something that can condone such a level of hypocrisy.  Whether you like it or not, the actions of a few can reflect poorly on the whole.

I honestly don't care about how one votes.  I care that one's actions reflect his/her outward stances.  For example, telling me that Trump's admitted adulterous ways isn't a problem is a direct counter to one of the most basic laws of the church.  How am I, as a non-believer, supposed to then take that same person seriously when they try to witness to me about Christ?  I fully understand this isn't an "all Christians" thing.  But there are leaders of the church who are endorsing this behaviour despite what they teach every week from the pulpit.

Ok, so it’s the Christians that you’ve interacted with and the specific pastors you’ve heard. Gotcha

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

23 minutes ago, homersapien said:

It's self evident:  Telling someone how the should incorporate "proper exegesis and hermeneutics when interpreting scripture".

I didn’t tell him how to do it. But there is an objective way. Didn’t you know that?

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

16 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Well, I've got you and your friends on this forum to consider.

Are you saying ya'll aren't legitmate representatives for your religion?

 

Sure. But when you say “leaders” isn’t the connotation a vocational minister? Do I celebrate Trump’s sins?

[Grumps 3,704]

1 hour ago, GiveEmElle said:

I’m absolutely certain I have never told anyone how to live their lives here. If you interpret my opinions and view expressed here as me directing you how to live, well that’s your problem. But yes, I think people who voted for Trump were wrong. He has alienated our allies at the G7 and is quite frankly an ass. He isn’t a leader or even a good human being. He has no respect for rule of law and is systematically destroying democracy. And people chose that. 

If you don't find it incredibly arrogant for you to think you know what is right and what is wrong for someone else despite not knowing that person's opinions and strongly held convictions then I suppose we can't learn much from each other, can we?

[homersapien 11,371]

10 hours ago, NolaAuTiger said:

He thinks that for a Christian to support Trump, they necessarily have to excuse or even celebrate sin - which is error. 

To be more specific, I think Titan is saying public support by Christians for Trump damages the image of Christianity because many - including currrent self-defined Christians and non-Christians - see that as hypocrisy.

Whether or not they are hypocrites is somewhat beside the point.  But to a outsider,  it certainly appears as hypocrisy. 

And your rationalizations for Christians overlooking Trump's character and actions don't help your cause.

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

Just now, homersapien said:

To be more specific, I think Titan is saying public Christians support for Trump damages the image of Christianity because many - including currrent self-defined Christians and non-Christians - see that as hypocrisy.

Whether or not they are hypocrites is somewhat beside the point.  But to a outsider,  it certainly appears as hypocrisy. 

And your rationalizations for Christians overlooking Trump's character and actions don't help your cause.

My rationalizations? If that’s how you see it then that’s your fault. It’s clear that any explanation that differs from Titian’s, or one you want to hear, will NOT suffice. That’s your problem, not mine.

[homersapien 11,371]

45 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

The truth is, you don’t want to look into it any further becuase your only concern is gathering every ounce of ammunition that will appease your ideology.

 

I'm curious, since you seem to know, can you describe "my ideology" ?  

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

4 minutes ago, homersapien said:

To be more specific, I think Titan is saying public Christians support for Trump damages the image of Christianity because many - including currrent self-defined Christians and non-Christians - see that as hypocrisy.

Whether or not they are hypocrites is somewhat beside the point.  But to a outsider,  it certainly appears as hypocrisy. 

And your rationalizations for Christians overlooking Trump's character and actions don't help your cause.

And this doesn’t surprise me. “Hypocrisy” is a label constantly thrown at Christians for virtually everything under the sun. It’s nothing new, though it operates from a false notion that Christians are supposed to be flawless people.

[Grumps 3,704]

Any of you looking to Christians to figure out what Christianity is about are never going to understand. Only God Himself can make you understand. If you all will ask God to reveal Himself to you then you are FAR more likely to understand who He is and what Christianity is. It seems disingenuous for you to determine who God is or isn't based on what Franklin Graham or any other human says.

[homersapien 11,371]

2 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

My rationalizations? If that’s how you see it then that’s your fault. It’s clear that any explanation that differs from Titian’s, or one you want to hear, will NOT suffice. That’s your problem, not mine.

I don't see it as a problem, more like a virtue.  

But if your point is not all Christians accept and approve of Trump, I will readily concede that as fact.  In fact, I would hope that more reject Trump than accept him. 

But the topic of this thread is the "PR effect" Christians - such as yourself - who publicize their support of Trump, regardless of their rationalizations for doing so, have on the image of Christianity and what it really stands for.

 

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

2 minutes ago, Grumps said:

Any of you looking to Christians to figure out what Christianity is about are never going to understand. Only God Himself can make you understand. If you all will ask God to reveal Himself to you then you are FAR more likely to understand who He is and what Christianity is. It seems disingenuous for you to determine who God is or isn't based on what Franklin Graham or any other human says.

Honest questions if this is how you view it.  Why are there pastors/priests in the first place?  Why do others choose to witness if what they say should have no bearing on me?