Messianism: Not just for Obamaphiles anymore!

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

1 minute ago, homersapien said:

I am not looking to be "won over".  Far too late for that.

You are probably right about you being able to change my "thoughts" on Christianity,  I find that impossible to imagine for reasons that don't all originate with me.  But this discussion is about the effect certain Christians have on the image of their religion by their words and actions.

The last two sentences are specious.  I never implied that sinlessness, perfection or consistency was a factor in my observations.   Embracing the likes of Trump and holding him up as an object of Christian approval is what I am talking about.

 

Are Christians hypocrites if they support a candidate who condones abortion and/or possesses other arguably unchristian attributes?

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

3 minutes ago, Grumps said:

Why don't you ask NoLa if he thinks that Trump is a man if high character? Trump can do good things for the country even if he is a EXTREMELY flawed. It amazes me that some of you seem to think that those of us who don't think that he should be castrated and burned at the stake are celebrating him.

 

[homersapien 11,374]

29 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

He took the verse out of context. Period.

That didn't make it incorrect for the point that was being made.

You are looking for a way to ignore the validity of that point.  Just like a Pharisee might.

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

2 minutes ago, homersapien said:

That didn't make it incorrect for the point that was being made.

You are looking for a way to ignore the validity of that point.  Just like a Pharisee might.

The validity of the verse as it was used, you mean? 

Just like a Pharisee might? Now you’re not making sense, like always.

[homersapien 11,374]

33 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

For many like you, it’s nothing more than a political ploy. If Christians supported a candidate who supports abortion, I guarantee you that you wouldn’t be calling them “hypocrites” and bashing their beliefs.

You don’t fool me.

 

Rats!   You're just too clever.  

But don't tell me how I would react to any given scenario you make up.  That's diversionary. 

And don't accuse me of things I haven't said.  I haven't bashed anyone's beliefs.  And this discussion is not about me calling anyone in particular a hypocrite.  After all, I cannot look into anyone's heart.  I don't know who's really a Christian or not.

The thread is about the contradiction between Christian values and the character and actions of Trump.  You can keep rationalizing how that contradiction  doesn't exist - or doesn't matter -  but trust me, to everyone who's not in your "club"  it looks, feels and smells of hypocrisy.

To a non-believer, it appears that the only thing Christians really consider important is personal salvation in the "afterlife".  The only thing. 

And that's what led me to leave the flock in the first place. 

[GiveEmElle 1,559]

16 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

So the few crazies speak for the majority of Christianity? You and I both know such claims are out of touch with mainstream Christian denominations.

70% of white evangelicals voted for Trump. So I think that’s much closer to the majority than it is to the few.

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

10 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Rats!   You're just too clever.  

But don't tell me how I would react to any given scenario you make up.  That's diversionary. 

And don't accuse me of things I haven't said.  I haven't bashed anyone's beliefs.  And this discussion is not about me calling anyone in particular a hypocrite.  After all, I cannot look into anyone's heart.  I don't know who's really a Christian or not.

The thread is about the contradiction between Christian values and the character and actions of Trump.  You can keep rationalizing how that contradiction  doesn't exist - or doesn't matter -  but trust me, to everyone who's not in your "club"  it looks, feels and smells of hypocrisy.

To a non-believer, it appears that the only thing Christians really consider important is personal salvation in the "afterlife".  The only thing. 

And that's what led me to leave the flock in the first place. 

Are you going to address the question or not? (Sorry I should’ve used a “?” symbol”)

[homersapien 11,374]

14 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

Are Christians hypocrites if they support a candidate who condones abortion and/or possesses other arguably unchristian attributes?

I've never heard of a candidate who "condoned" abortion.  But for example, supporting a candidate who personally opposed abortion but felt it was more of an individual rights issue than a public (state) issue, no.   

Regarding other issues, it pretty much depends on what you mean by "arguably unchristian attributes".  For example, for a Christian to support a candidate who has made mistakes or commited un-Christian acts - but acknowledged it - no.   

I am not arguing a perfect case. Any real Christian is going to have to make some compromises in order to function in a modern society.  That's understandable.

But actively supporting a candidate (like Trump) who has consistently and continues to show a pattern of narcissism, racism, greed, vindictiveness, as well as a total lack of inherent human empathy?  Yes.    That is hypocrisy that is too blatant to be overlooked or rationalized.

[Grumps 3,704]

You liberals are not even trying to understand. Even you all seem to agree that Trump was more likely to support a Christian agenda that was Mrs. Clinton. So why wouldn't Christians vote for Trump more than for Mrs. Clinton?

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

9 minutes ago, GiveEmElle said:

70% of white evangelicals voted for Trump. So I think that’s much closer to the majority than it is to the few.

No they didn’t. I’ve had this discussion on here before. “Evangelical” for those purposes is determined by who checks the box. Check out this article:

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/no-the-majority-of-american-evangelicals-did-not-vote-for-trump/

[homersapien 11,374]

59 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

He took the verse out of context. Period.

Like I said....

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

3 minutes ago, homersapien said:

I've never heard of a candidate who "condoned" abortion.  But for example, supporting a candidate who personally opposed abortion but felt it was more of an individual rights issue than a public (state) issue, no.   

Regarding other issues, it pretty much depends on what you mean by "arguably unchristian attributes".  For example, for a Christian to support a candidate who has made mistakes or commited un-Christian acts - but acknowledged it - no.   

I am not arguing a perfect case. Any real Christian is going to have to make some compromises in order to function in a modern society.  That's understandable.

But actively supporting a candidate (like Trump) who has consistently and continues to show a pattern of narcissism, racism, greed, vindictiveness, as well as a total lack of inherent human empathy?  Yes.    That is hypocrisy that is too blatant to be overlooked or rationalized.

What about a candidate who supports abortion personally and “in the interest of public”? Would a Christian be a hypocrite if they supported the candidate?

i know I’m not allowed to use her name, but could a Christian support Hillary without being a hypocrite?

[homersapien 11,374]

45 minutes ago, Grumps said:

What is funny is that David Swanson could also tweet

"There are white Christians who are OK with completely disregarding the rule of law and letting people enter the country illegally...who are also enthusiastically planning summer vacations to Washington D.C. to learn about the effectiveness and the formation of our nation's government.

The levels of cognitive dissonance and hypocrisy are just astounding."

Do you see how that works? People who want to bash whites and Christians can find reasons anywhere they want. David Swanson is also a hypocrite, just like the rest of us.

 

"People who want to bash whites and Christians"?

Good grief!  

[GiveEmElle 1,559]

9 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

No they didn’t. I’ve had this discussion on here before. “Evangelical” for those purposes is determined by who checks the box. Check out this article:

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/no-the-majority-of-american-evangelicals-did-not-vote-for-trump/

 

1. Exit polls do not capture the ‘evangelical’ vote, only the ‘white evangelical’ vote.

 

Did I not say “white evangelicals”?

[homersapien 11,374]

49 minutes ago, GiveEmElle said:

You completely miss the point of this entire thread. It isn’t about Christians sinning. No one is perfect and everyone here knows that. The point is that many Christians and church leaders proclaim that Trump is a Christian, is God’s man despite the fact that almost every facet of his life goes against Christian teachings. It’s the hypocrisy that has hurt the ministry of Christianity. 

I am not sure if he misses the point or is just desperately trying to twist or spin it to something actually defensible.

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

Just now, GiveEmElle said:

 

1. Exit polls do not capture the ‘evangelical’ vote, only the ‘white evangelical’ vote.

 

Did I not say “white evangelicals”?

Yes....

but there’s more than one reason discussed in the article.....

[homersapien 11,374]

50 minutes ago, Grumps said:

Why don't you ask NoLa if he thinks that Trump is a man if high character? Trump can do good things for the country even if he is a EXTREMELY flawed.

Maybe Nola doesn't represent the Christian "leaders" this thread is about.  In fact, until he started defending the contrary position on this thread, I don't recall him ever mentioning Christianity during a discussion about Trump. 

All I know at this point, is that he supports Trump and he calls himself a Christian.  It's hard for me to ignore the hypocrisy inherent in that - or at least the cognitive dissonance - but I am not necessarily putting him in the same category of Christian "leaders" who actively associate Trump with Christian thinking.

It amazes me that some of you seem to think that those of us who don't think that he should be castrated and burned at the stake are celebrating him.

That's a really stupid, specious comment.  

 

[homersapien 11,374]

24 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

Are you going to address the question or not? (Sorry I should’ve used a “?” symbol”)

Restate the question please.

[GiveEmElle 1,559]

4 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

Yes....

but there’s more than one reason discussed in the article.....

I see that. But I also see evidence to contradict the article. I work the polls. Trump won my box 610 to Clinton’s 141. I know many of the voters in my box and most are confessed Christians.  

 

[homersapien 11,374]

32 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

What about a candidate who supports abortion personally and “in the interest of public”? Would a Christian be a hypocrite if they supported the candidate?

i know I’m not allowed to use her name, but could a Christian support Hillary without being a hypocrite?

Depends on how they feel about abortion.  Are you trying to suggest that issue alone defines whether or not one is a Christian?

Likewise, what Christian belief would dictate support - or opposition - to Hillary?

This discussion is not about a given issue or two.  It's about the character of Donald Trump.  It's about the character attributes he has demonstrated throughout his life and continues to do so.  

And seriously, do you really think Trump has a principled position on abortion, one way or the other?  

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

Just now, GiveEmElle said:

I see that. But I also see evidence to contradict the article. I work the polls. Trump won my box 610 to Clinton’s 141. I know many of the voters in my box and most are confessed Christians.  

 

It doesn’t contradict the article. And cool. I’ve volunteered for polls too. Can’t share info though, as you know. 

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

12 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Depends on how they feel about abortion.  Are you trying to suggest that issue alone defines whether or not one is a Christian?

Likewise, what Christian belief would dictate support - or opposition - to Hillary?

This discussion is not about a given issue or two.  It's about the character of Donald Trump.  It's about the character attributes he has demonstrated throughout his life and continues to do so.  

And seriously, do you really think Trump has a principled position on abortion, one way or the other?  

You’re really bad at interpretation. It’s like pulling teeth with you.

[homersapien 11,374]

19 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

You’re really bad at interpretation. It’s like pulling teeth with you.

Maybe you are really bad at formulating your questions?

That was a straightforward response to your questions.  Keep in mind you are welcome to clarify them if I misunderstood, but I assume his post means you don't care to.

At least I responded, which is more that can be said about you.

[GiveEmElle 1,559]

1 hour ago, NolaAuTiger said:

It doesn’t contradict the article. And cool. I’ve volunteered for polls too. Can’t share info though, as you know. 

By polls, I mean polling place. I’m an election official. And the results I shared are public information. They are posted on the door of the polling place, announced at the election returns center in town, and published in the news paper. 

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

15 minutes ago, GiveEmElle said:

By polls, I mean polling place. I’m an election official. And the results I shared are public information. They are posted on the door of the polling place, announced at the election returns center in town, and published in the news paper. 

I initially voted for Cruz but there was no way he’d be able to muster enough support