The Numbers

[AuburnGrad09 0]

We will most likely sign 4 more in this class (to bring our total up to 27, leaving one spot for Coleman, if needed).

Those 4 will likely go down to:

1) Florence (Whitehead if we miss)

2) Wright (Fanning if we miss)

3) CK (Richardson if we miss)

4) Fanning, Whitehead, Richardson or another (surprise) recruit

There is also the possibility that we lose one or two current commits and they would be replaced with one of the above at #4

[TigerProwl24 0]

We had 32 commitments last year though..

Because we had 5 count back to the previous class.  We only used 20 spots for the 2009 class, allowing us to use the remaining spots for the 2010 class.  We had 27 that would count for 2010, but Coleman got sick and Richardson didn't qualify, leaving us with 25 LOI's to take up all 25 initial counters we had for 2010.

If we sign more than 25 for 2011, that means some will either greyshirt or be nonqualifiers.  If Shon Coleman's medical hardship deal has been granted, then he will be an initial counter in the 2012 class.

..and yet we were still under the 85 limit. This years class will almost get us completely caught up with the numbers. Next year will be the first year that Chizik and his staff will run into oversigning. Considering we've been having to play catch up in our overall numbers, it is truly amazing the job this staff has done with the talent we've had. We haven't been near as deep as some of our rivals.

[ellitor 33,284]

nm

[ellitor 33,284]

We've got ourselves in a tough predicament then..

no we do not. as long as we are at or under 85 we are good.

[logan adams 333]

Since I asked, yeah I missed that.

[DyeCampAlum 335]

So we are now supporting over signing when Auburn does it?

25 is relevant.  If you sign 27 and can't bring them all in, you've oversigned.

:puttingfaceinpalms:  Guys, Really?!  As much as this topic has been beaten to death lately, we still don't even have a grasp of what oversigning actually is? Come on guys...  The NCAA allows you to sign 28 in any given year and give out 25 schollys. That is standard procedure because of kids that won't qualify and that gives schools some wiggle room for kids that won't qualify. When you can give out 25 schollys and still be under the 85 limit, it ISN'T oversigning. That is where we are. It is oversigning when you sign more players in a class, than you have room for in the overall 85 scholly limit. 

Trying to be friendly here.  I try to be a positive presence here, and I appreciate your posts.  This one, though, came across to me as condescending – plus, I disagree.  Oversigning is signing more people than you can bring in.  Obviously, that can happen when you get over 85.  But it can also happen with the 25 rule.  If you sign 27, and all of them qualify, you’ve oversigned.  How is that not the case?

[ellitor 33,284]

So we are now supporting over signing when Auburn does it?

25 is relevant.  If you sign 27 and can't bring them all in, you've oversigned.

:puttingfaceinpalms:  Guys, Really?!  As much as this topic has been beaten to death lately, we still don't even have a grasp of what oversigning actually is? Come on guys...  The NCAA allows you to sign 28 in any given year and give out 25 schollys. That is standard procedure because of kids that won't qualify and that gives schools some wiggle room for kids that won't qualify. When you can give out 25 schollys and still be under the 85 limit, it ISN'T oversigning. That is where we are. It is oversigning when you sign more players in a class, than you have room for in the overall 85 scholly limit. 

Trying to be friendly here.  I try to be a positive presence here, and I appreciate your posts.  This one, though, came across to me as condescending – plus, I disagree.  Oversigning is signing more people than you can bring in.  Obviously, that can happen when you get over 85.  But it can also happen with the 25 rule.  If you sign 27, and all of them qualify, you’ve oversigned.  How is that not the case?

I apologize for the way Prowl's post came across but he is right. We have beaten this issue to death the past 5 days and we are just going around in circles. And when we are not at the 85 number like we are then there is nothing wrong with getting one or 2 extra, especially if a player or 2 is willing to take a grayshirt then get on scholly next January. When you are not at 85 it would be foolish to not account for normall attition to take place over the football season and get as many players as you can within the rules as long as you are at or under 85.

[TigerProwl24 0]

So we are now supporting over signing when Auburn does it?

25 is relevant.  If you sign 27 and can't bring them all in, you've oversigned.

:puttingfaceinpalms:  Guys, Really?!  As much as this topic has been beaten to death lately, we still don't even have a grasp of what oversigning actually is? Come on guys...  The NCAA allows you to sign 28 in any given year and give out 25 schollys. That is standard procedure because of kids that won't qualify and that gives schools some wiggle room for kids that won't qualify. When you can give out 25 schollys and still be under the 85 limit, it ISN'T oversigning. That is where we are. It is oversigning when you sign more players in a class, than you have room for in the overall 85 scholly limit. 

Trying to be friendly here.  I try to be a positive presence here, and I appreciate your posts.  This one, though, came across to me as condescending – plus, I disagree.  Oversigning is signing more people than you can bring in.  Obviously, that can happen when you get over 85.  But it can also happen with the 25 rule.  If you sign 27, and all of them qualify, you’ve oversigned.  How is that not the case?

I apologize DyeCamp, I wasn't trying to come off condescending. You are a positive presence here and I appreciate your posts as well. I like you man and I wasn't trying to be rude or smart, it's just that we've beaten this topic to absolute death. I'm tired of reading about it but I can't help myself from posting about it because some still don't grasp it. I may not do it in the right manner(the reason I apologize) but I'm really just trying to be informative, its just frustrating to talk about it over and over.

Like I explained in the previous post, the NCAA allows you to sign up to 28. You can only give out 25 schollies. Bottom line. If we were to sign 27, you can bet that we'll have at least 2 that won't qualify and will be a sign and place type of situation.

[87aubie 0]

JMO, but I think there is a huge difference between anticipating normal (based on averages) qualification and attrition losses vs a demonstrated pattern of having too many players and having to find creative (marginally ethical) ways of getting within legal limits.  I think the former is what we are discussing with regards to the AU staff and the latter being the issue somewhere west of Vance.

[Lint 0]

So Coleman will definitely count towards 2012?

And I don't think discussing the issue is a big deal. maybe it's been covered a lot the past 5 days.  So what?  A lot of people don't spend all day every day on here..

[DyeCampAlum 335]

Thanks for the thoughtful replies, guys.  First, I haven't read this conversation -- I've been in Thailand for 23 days and just got home last night.  So maybe you've been pounding this stuff for awhile, but not every poster will know that.

Second, though, you can debate the definition of oversigning.  But IMO if you sign more than you can bring in, you've oversigned.  (Is "oversigning" technically defined anywhere?  Is it in the OED?)  So can we agree that (a) we trust our coaches to know what's up with the class and to treat kids fairly and ( that it's not cool to offer a kid a scholly but then not be able to follow through for the fall?

[ellitor 33,284]

So we are now supporting over signing when Auburn does it?

25 is relevant.  If you sign 27 and can't bring them all in, you've oversigned.

:puttingfaceinpalms:  Guys, Really?!  As much as this topic has been beaten to death lately, we still don't even have a grasp of what oversigning actually is? Come on guys...  The NCAA allows you to sign 28 in any given year and give out 25 schollys. That is standard procedure because of kids that won't qualify and that gives schools some wiggle room for kids that won't qualify. When you can give out 25 schollys and still be under the 85 limit, it ISN'T oversigning. That is where we are. It is oversigning when you sign more players in a class, than you have room for in the overall 85 scholly limit. 

Trying to be friendly here.  I try to be a positive presence here, and I appreciate your posts.  This one, though, came across to me as condescending – plus, I disagree.  Oversigning is signing more people than you can bring in.  Obviously, that can happen when you get over 85.  But it can also happen with the 25 rule.  If you sign 27, and all of them qualify, you’ve oversigned.  How is that not the case?

I apologize DyeCamp, I wasn't trying to come off condescending. You are a positive presence here and I appreciate your posts as well. I like you man and I wasn't trying to be rude or smart, it's just that we've beaten this topic to absolute death. I'm tired of reading about it but I can't help myself from posting about it because some still don't grasp it. I may not do it in the right manner(the reason I apologize) but I'm really just trying to be informative, its just frustrating to talk about it over and over.

Like I explained in the previous post, the NCAA allows you to sign up to 28. You can only give out 25 schollies. Bottom line. If we were to sign 27, you can bet that we'll have at least 2 that won't qualify and will be a sign and place type of situation.

or grayshirt

[ellitor 33,284]

So Coleman will definitely count towards 2012?

And I don't think discussing the issue is a big deal. maybe it's been covered a lot the past 5 days.  So what?  A lot of people don't spend all day every day on here..

We do not know. Only the coaches may know at this point.

[ellitor 33,284]

Thanks for the thoughtful replies, guys.  First, I haven't read this conversation -- I've been in Thailand for 23 days and just got home last night.  So maybe you've been pounding this stuff for awhile, but not every poster will know that.

Second, though, you can debate the definition of oversigning.  But IMO if you sign more than you can bring in, you've oversigned.  (Is "oversigning" technically defined anywhere?  Is it in the OED?)  So can we agree that (a) we trust our coaches to know what's up with the class and to treat kids fairly and ( that it's not cool to offer a kid a scholly but then not be able to follow through for the fall?

A. yes and B. We are not like an unnamed team. Our coaches do not do that....I do not think you meant it this way Dye but the reason it was a bit frustrating for me at first was the way you worded your posts it came across that you were implying that we were immorally handling our situation like an unnamed school, or the it was wrong to oversign for any reason. I have no problems with oversigning gy a few at all as long as the coaches are straight up with the recruits.

[TigerProwl24 0]

Thanks for the thoughtful replies, guys.  First, I haven't read this conversation -- I've been in Thailand for 23 days and just got home last night.  So maybe you've been pounding this stuff for awhile, but not every poster will know that.

Second, though, you can debate the definition of oversigning.  But IMO if you sign more than you can bring in, you've oversigned.  (Is "oversigning" technically defined anywhere?  Is it in the OED?)  So can we agree that (a) we trust our coaches to know what's up with the class and to treat kids fairly and ( that it's not cool to offer a kid a scholly but then not be able to follow through for the fall?

Sorry Dye, this subject has been beat into submission. Like Lint said, Ellitor and I should consider not everybody is on here as much as we are. Hey Dye, are you former USAF? Its interesting you just came back from Thailand. Glad you made it back home safe. The american dollar stretches mighty far over there.

[tsande07 271]

Thanks for the thoughtful replies, guys.  First, I haven't read this conversation -- I've been in Thailand for 23 days and just got home last night.  So maybe you've been pounding this stuff for awhile, but not every poster will know that.

Second, though, you can debate the definition of oversigning.  But IMO if you sign more than you can bring in, you've oversigned.  (Is "oversigning" technically defined anywhere?  Is it in the OED?)  So can we agree that (a) we trust our coaches to know what's up with the class and to treat kids fairly and ( that it's not cool to offer a kid a scholly but then not be able to follow through for the fall?

Yeah, we've had a couple of threads on this.  Unfortunately, the term is use loosely for both activities:

1.  Signing beyond your 25-a-year limit

2.  Signing more than can fit in your 85 total limit

Of the two, I believe #1 can be done responsibly, as long as you are have planned appropriately for sign-and-place kids or if you have a recruit that really wants to come and is willing to accept a greyshirt.

#2 is a place that some really bad things can happen, if you have an irresponsible coaching staff.  Unfortunately, because of the unknowns associated with natural attrition, coaching staffs are in a bad position where they do not always know how many recruits they should plan on taking the next year.  The NCAA could solve #2 overnight by either increasing the 85 limit to ~100 or decreasing the 25 limit to 22-23, but they haven't really seemed to take notice of the issue yet, possible because it's worse in the SEC than elsewhere.

[TigerProwl24 0]

Like I explained in the previous post, the NCAA allows you to sign up to 28. You can only give out 25 schollies. Bottom line. If we were to sign 27, you can bet that we'll have at least 2 that won't qualify and will be a sign and place type of situation.

or grayshirt

I don't see us handing out any greyshirts this year. We need all the room we can have for next years class.

[DyeCampAlum 335]

Frankly, I think the NCAA should just say 25 and deal with it.  That wouldn't keep the other place from suddenly discovering that kids have medical disabilities, but it would prevent the rare cases like LSU's, where a kid literally got cut.  That way, schools would look very carefully at whether recruits would actually arrive.

I was in Thailand, leading a group of theological students on a study tour.  Never been USAF or any other military, though I know folk who were stationed there.

[AUoutsider 0]

I always show up for the oversigning discussions....

I think Auburn could actually have 31 in this signing class because 3 players are already enrolled and therefore aren't going to be signing a Letter of Intent, and therefore don't count against the 28 signing limit.  This is true even if the early enrollers don't count back to 2010.

Regardless, Auburn still only has 25 scholarships to give out, so if they pushed the rules to their limit and had a class of 31, 6 would have to not-qualify/greyshirt.  That's a lot of attrition.

This might explain why Auburn is working with a couple of sign-and-place guys right now.  They have room on NSD for them and they figure why not have the inside track on some great juco talent a couple of years from now.

[tiger241345162816 0]

FTR, the NCAA's rule is that you can only enroll 25 per class each year.  I don't think the NCAA limits how many LOIs you can take.  The limit of getting up to 28 LOIs is an SEC rule, thanks in large part to the 38 (I think) LOIs Huston Nutt took a few years ago. 

[ellitor 33,284]

FTR, the NCAA's rule is that you can only enroll 25 per class each year.  I don't think the NCAA limits how many LOIs you can take.  The limit of getting up to 28 LOIs is an SEC rule, thanks in large part to the 38 (I think) LOIs Huston Nutt took a few years ago. 

The NCAA passed the SEC 28 rule this summer. It was in a thread a couple months ago and came straight from the NCAA website.

[tiger241345162816 0]

[ellitor 33,284]

I always show up for the oversigning discussions....

I think Auburn could actually have 31 in this signing class because 3 players are already enrolled and therefore aren't going to be signing a Letter of Intent, and therefore don't count against the 28 signing limit.  This is true even if the early enrollers don't count back to 2010.

Regardless, Auburn still only has 25 scholarships to give out, so if they pushed the rules to their limit and had a class of 31, 6 would have to not-qualify/greyshirt.  That's a lot of attrition.

This might explain why Auburn is working with a couple of sign-and-place guys right now.  They have room on NSD for them and they figure why not have the inside track on some great juco talent a couple of years from now.

This is incorrect. Every new football player on scholarship has to count to the current, or previous signing class if there is room, whether he signs a LOI or not. Therefore the 3 new enrollies will count to the 2011 class and the max is still 28.

[auclong 1]

I always show up for the oversigning discussions....

I think Auburn could actually have 31 in this signing class because 3 players are already enrolled and therefore aren't going to be signing a Letter of Intent, and therefore don't count against the 28 signing limit.  This is true even if the early enrollers don't count back to 2010.

Regardless, Auburn still only has 25 scholarships to give out, so if they pushed the rules to their limit and had a class of 31, 6 would have to not-qualify/greyshirt.  That's a lot of attrition.

This might explain why Auburn is working with a couple of sign-and-place guys right now.  They have room on NSD for them and they figure why not have the inside track on some great juco talent a couple of years from now.

Wrong. Those three will sign a LOI on Feb. 2nd like all the other new recruits. I doubt when we get to the 85 limit after this year we won`t have any JUCO signees unless they are a sign and place. We have room for 25 including the 3 already enrolled.

[auburn4ever 1,266]

It's going to be close.