The case for reparations

[TitanTiger 20,708]

http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/05/the-case-for-reparations/361631/

I can't even begin to summarize or pick a section to tease here. Some will read the title, get maybe a fourth of the way in or skip to the end and dismiss it out of hand. I would encourage you to take the time to read the entire thing.

[AUDub 11,426]

Interesting article. I'm about halfway through it. Mr. Ross's housing situation in Chicago reminds me of Upton Sinclair's The Jungle.

[jasonwde 0]

always wanting a handout...

[TitanTiger 20,708]

always wanting a handout...

Who is always wanting a handout?

[AUDub 11,426]

always wanting a handout...

Who is always wanting a handout?

This should be good

[japantiger 4,077]

http://www.theatlant...rations/361631/

I can't even begin to summarize or pick a section to tease here. Some will read the title, get maybe a fourth of the way in or skip to the end and dismiss it out of hand. I would encourage you to take the time to read the entire thing.

Nope...not wasting the energy to read a 4th of it. If you look in Wikipedia, this article is listed under the definition of "bull****".

[TitanTiger 20,708]

Ok, this is going to be the rule for this thread: If you aren't going to take the time to read it and discuss intelligently, your comments going forward will be deleted. Only exception is if I directly engage your post.

Fair warning.

[japantiger 4,077]

Ok, this is going to be the rule for this thread: If you aren't going to take the time to read it and discuss intelligently, your comments going forward will be deleted. Only exception is if I directly engage your post.

Fair warning.

I did discuss it intelligently. Definition of reparation is as outlined below (per Merriam Webster).

reparations : money that a country or group that loses a war pays because of the damage, injury, deaths, etc., it has caused

: something that is done or given as a way of correcting a mistake that you have made or a bad situation that you have caused

Given the definition of the word; nothing in this article fits the definition. Why waste time addressing a non-sequitor? If the author wants to discuss the merits of assessing inter-generational damages against people based on purely on race; then let's have that discussion. I think there are adequate protections in the constitution that prevent me being assessed damages without due process or in violation of the unusual punishments articles in the constitution...I would imagine this would also would not withstand supreme court challenge as just about any recent supreme court ruling that says the way to end discrimination based on race is to stop discriminating based on race. But, I think just calling bull**** was a more concise way to point out what should have been obvious.

[jasonwde 0]

always wanting a handout...

Who is always wanting a handout?

poors and blacks

[AU_Tiger_88 417]

"If the author wants to discuss the merits of assessing inter-generational damages against people based on purely on race; then let's have that discussion. " Agree with this statement. Was what happened to those folks identified in the article bad? Yes very much so and it makes me angry that the "law" allowed it to happen. I wasn't a part of it nor was my family....do I need to pay for what others have done? No Way... am I anyway guilty because of my skin color? No... I say if you want to pay folks because of injustice, then go after the perps... I grew up poor, some of my folks were share croppers... they were cheated too just like the article states so by the thought of the author then maybe I might be entitled to some money... there are criminals out there everyday that take advantage of people. Does that excuse what happened? No... There are many problems within our society and all around the world.

[TitanTiger 20,708]

always wanting a handout...

Who is always wanting a handout?

poors and blacks

I figured that's where you were going. Racism isn't going to be a good play for you here. I'll leave this up as a warning to others but go down this road again making racist, homosexual or other stereotype remarks and you will be permanently banned.

[TitanTiger 20,708]

Ok, this is going to be the rule for this thread: If you aren't going to take the time to read it and discuss intelligently, your comments going forward will be deleted. Only exception is if I directly engage your post.

Fair warning.

I did discuss it intelligently. Definition of reparation is as outlined below (per Merriam Webster).

reparations : money that a country or group that loses a war pays because of the damage, injury, deaths, etc., it has caused

: something that is done or given as a way of correcting a mistake that you have made or a bad situation that you have caused

Given the definition of the word; nothing in this article fits the definition. Why waste time addressing a non-sequitor? If the author wants to discuss the merits of assessing inter-generational damages against people based on purely on race; then let's have that discussion. I think there are adequate protections in the constitution that prevent me being assessed damages without due process or in violation of the unusual punishments articles in the constitution...I would imagine this would also would not withstand supreme court challenge as just about any recent supreme court ruling that says the way to end discrimination based on race is to stop discriminating based on race. But, I think just calling bull**** was a more concise way to point out what should have been obvious.

By definition, if you didn't read the article and call it "bull****" out of hand, you're not discussing this article intelligently. Future comments that come from this same lack of engagement will be deleted.

[telling tiger 156]

While I generally try to avoid this forum like the plague it mostly is, the article makes some excellent points....in mortgage banking in particular...AF/AMs tried to play the American dream game in the proscribed dominant culture way and were at times often denied access to that due to many circumstances of dubious value and per chance a few of actual value.

The article can be discussed without feeling as if one must endorse reparations, unless, of course, you are 8 years old.

[TitanTiger 20,708]

I reiterate, this thread will be for people who wish to intelligently and knowledgeably discuss the article. If you don't want to read the article, that's fine. No one is forcing you to. But you won't be participating in this discussion. If you do read it and decide not to bring intelligent, mature comments to the thread, those will be deleted also.

[TitanTiger 20,708]

While I generally try to avoid this forum like the plague it mostly is, the article makes some excellent points....in mortgage banking in particular...AF/AMs tried to play the American dream game in the proscribed dominant culture way and were at times often denied access to that due to many circumstances of dubious value and per chance a few of actual value.

The article can be discussed without feeling as if one must endorse reparations, unless, of course, you are 8 years old.

Exactly.

I was struck by just how pervasive the issues were. I tried to imagine what my family and others like me would look like if for 250+ of the last 300 years, my ancestors had been systematically undermined, robbed, excluded from even being able to move up in society. How does that impact a group under such oppression? How does the inability to create and pass on wealth from generation to generation impact people now?

[autigeremt 6,970]

While I generally try to avoid this forum like the plague it mostly is, the article makes some excellent points....in mortgage banking in particular...AF/AMs tried to play the American dream game in the proscribed dominant culture way and were at times often denied access to that due to many circumstances of dubious value and per chance a few of actual value.

The article can be discussed without feeling as if one must endorse reparations, unless, of course, you are 8 years old.

Exactly.

I was struck by just how pervasive the issues were. I tried to imagine what my family and others like me would look like if for 250+ of the last 300 years, my ancestors had been systematically undermined, robbed, excluded from even being able to move up in society. How does that impact a group under such oppression? How does the inability to create and pass on wealth from generation to generation impact people now?

Dr. Carson would beg to differ. Until people look in the mirror and understand that none of us predetermine our origin in this world will we ever get beyond this divisive talk of one group owing another for something people did many years ago. Using this argument, every other ethnic group deserves "reparations" from another when you study the history of blacks, Irish, Jews, native Americans, etc.

BTW, silencing ones free speech on the forum is pretty stupid considering this is a free and open forum and website. But you have the power, so wield it as you wish.

[TitanTiger 20,708]

While I generally try to avoid this forum like the plague it mostly is, the article makes some excellent points....in mortgage banking in particular...AF/AMs tried to play the American dream game in the proscribed dominant culture way and were at times often denied access to that due to many circumstances of dubious value and per chance a few of actual value.

The article can be discussed without feeling as if one must endorse reparations, unless, of course, you are 8 years old.

Exactly.

I was struck by just how pervasive the issues were. I tried to imagine what my family and others like me would look like if for 250+ of the last 300 years, my ancestors had been systematically undermined, robbed, excluded from even being able to move up in society. How does that impact a group under such oppression? How does the inability to create and pass on wealth from generation to generation impact people now?

Dr. Carson would beg to differ. Until people look in the mirror and understand that none of us predetermine our origin in this world will we ever get beyond this divisive talk of one group owing another for something people did many years ago. Using this argument, every other ethnic group deserves "reparations" from another when you study the history of blacks, Irish, Jews, native Americans, etc.

BTW, silencing ones free speech on the forum is pretty stupid considering this is a free and open forum and website. But you have the power, so wield it as you wish.

First, the fact that there exists some who made it despite the obstacles does not automatically negate the point.

Second, I'm not silencing free speech on the forum. I am tightly moderating one thread to allow for some sane mature discussion for once. 99% of the threads here can't have intelligent discussion because some have nothing to offer but silly one-liners. I simply want people who will take the time to read the article and offer some intelligent thoughts on it without it devolving into that same old knee-jerk slap fight.

Those who can't be bothered with such things are welcome to bloviate in their normal fashion uninhibited...somewhere else for once.

[telling tiger 156]

I appreciate Titan doing it, for a change, actual issues will be discussed instead of the usual non-stop ideological whining of the same 4 or 5 posters..

As a rule, this forum wouldn't make a good speed bump.

[icanthearyou 4,468]

always wanting a handout...

Who is always wanting a handout?

poors and blacks

Roll Tied!

[icanthearyou 4,468]

If you do not believe these sort of things are still happening, you might want to look into the story of Sapelo Island, GA. There is a small community there, settled by former slaves after the Civil War. Last year, a developer with an eye on the island, bought a half acre of land and paid dearly for it. The developer then successfully lobbied the county to assess all of the land on the Island incorporating his recent purchase. The result is, that the poor who have lived there for generations can no longer afford their property taxes. Interestingly, the county provides them with almost no services. They do not have a school, no police or fire protection, no trash service. They do have one paved road.

The residents are trying to fight back. However, they do not have the money or legal expertise to do so effectively. Should they simply sell out to the developer? Should they fight and risk losing their homes and property to tax liens? Is this fair? Is it simply how capitalism works?

[homersapien 11,812]

While I generally try to avoid this forum like the plague it mostly is, the article makes some excellent points....in mortgage banking in particular...AF/AMs tried to play the American dream game in the proscribed dominant culture way and were at times often denied access to that due to many circumstances of dubious value and per chance a few of actual value.

The article can be discussed without feeling as if one must endorse reparations, unless, of course, you are 8 years old.

Exactly.

I was struck by just how pervasive the issues were. I tried to imagine what my family and others like me would look like if for 250+ of the last 300 years, my ancestors had been systematically undermined, robbed, excluded from even being able to move up in society. How does that impact a group under such oppression? How does the inability to create and pass on wealth from generation to generation impact people now?

I agree completely.

I made the same point to my family at Thanksgiving. Only in our case I was reflecting the other side of the issue - the inherent privilege of being white.

My father grew up in very poor circumstances in the 30's and 40's. He and his father worked as itinerant saw mill operators. He remembers waking up some mornings with snow on his bed. He joined the Army before graduating high school and later got his GED by sending the paperwork to a girlfriend to do.

He was hired by the telephone company after leaving the army and took advantage of every opportunity to learn and advance. Long story short, he worked his way up through management (no longer possible without a college degree) and eventually sent all four kids to college.

While this is mostly a story about someone who was hard working and determined to improve their lot in life, there is not a single opportunity he took advantage of on the way up that would have been available to him had he not been white. No living white person should kid themselves and assume they would be where they are today had they been born black. Poverty itself is a handicapper, but being poor and black throughout our history has been a double whammy.

I am not suggesting reparations are appropriate, but there is certainly room for affirmative action as long as need (wealth) and history is considered at the same time.

I do think there is a general insensitivity or maybe just ignorance, about how race has affected the potential of people in this country. One of my favorite stories is how black WWII veterans were forced to evacuate their nice Pullman cars in the south to move to segregated cars only to have German POW's take their place. I am still amazed we didn't avoid a racial war in the 60's. Martin Luther King is one of our greatest American hero's for that reason alone.

Frankly, I don't think racism will disappear in this country until there is some critical number of multi-racial families.

[TitanTiger 20,708]

Question: If we were to come to a place where we felt some sort of reparations were appropriate...what form should they take?

I know some who would literally cut a check to every African American. Sort of the modern day version of the "40 Acres and a Mule" that never materialized. I don't think that would have any real, lasting impact. I think a lot of that money would simply get blown and wouldn't be used to set create wealth that would last and be passed on.

And then there are the ideas regarding concentrated job training and education stuff targeted at the black community. To be honest I haven't even investigated or given a lot of thought to what might actually work. I just don't think throwing checks from the government is it.

[Tigermike 3,426]

Are there not education and job training programs already? The big problem is that large proportions of low income famlies are dropping out. Many of those dropouts were raised by dropouts. How would reparations help that? How would more tax dollars help that?

[AUDub 11,426]

An excellent follow up from the author of the cover story.

[homersapien 11,812]

Question: If we were to come to a place where we felt some sort of reparations were appropriate...what form should they take?

I know some who would literally cut a check to every African American. Sort of the modern day version of the "40 Acres and a Mule" that never materialized. I don't think that would have any real, lasting impact. I think a lot of that money would simply get blown and wouldn't be used to set create wealth that would last and be passed on.

And then there are the ideas regarding concentrated job training and education stuff targeted at the black community. To be honest I haven't even investigated or given a lot of thought to what might actually work. I just don't think throwing checks from the government is it.

I would support something like providing any qualified black kid secondary education benefits as long as they qualified (capable and willing to do the academic work and need the financial assistance). That seems like a win/win for everyone.

But in terms of improving the general financial health of the black community, the first problem that has to be addressed - or at least addressed simultaneously, is the birth rate of young single girls.