So if we moved on from Ellis J... (Edit we did)

[TitanTiger 20,499]

Some of this is reminiscent of the back and forth we had over Tony Barbee and the basketball program. I don't mean his last year. I am going back to probably the two previous years. We had defenders wanting to give him more time and others saying his time had run out. I mean how long do you give a man before making the change? If we let CEJ stay and next year is a repeat of this year then there is another wasted year. Sometimes the stats don't add up. CEJ is great at halftime adjustments. Hey that's great except for the fact that the game has a first half too. The first half of a game is typically a disaster. I don't necessarily think being down on the field would make a giant difference. RG is down on the field and he and the other sideline position coaches can be getting their players taken care of. RG is essentially the assistant DC if he doesn't actually have that title. Fundamentals are lacking across the board in the linebackers and secondary. I would have expected some definite improvement from one year to the next. If we aren't getting top defensive recruits that just compounds the problem. Something is going to have to change. Now whether any coaches get moved out or around, I don't know. I just can't see another year making a difference for the positive.

If there a Bruce Pearl-level DC just waiting in the wings to give guaranteed improvement? Because we're on our 3rd DC in four years already. What makes you think the 4th time will be the charm?

I don't know Titan. I am not familiar with the people that are out there. It doesn't take a genius DC to make this defense adequate. I'm guessing CEJ gets another year. Ok I'm willing to go along with that. What then. How long do you give a man before finally pulling the plug 5 years 6 years 10 years? So unless there is a genius out there we never make the change. got it.

I'd say 3 years is reasonable.

But again, you can't just make change for the sake of change. You have to look at who's out there. I keep hearing names like Muschamp or Manny Diaz. But they have their questions too. For one, even if Muschamp gets fired, it's fairly well known that he and Jay Jacobs aren't big buddies. I doubt he'd even come here. He'll have plenty of other suitors for a DC position if he wants it. Manny Diaz had some good defenses at Miss. State, but was hot garbage at Texas. He's done pretty good at La Tech but its hard to tell there. They don't play very many good teams and they ones they have piled up the points (OU and AU).

Could we throw enough money at Chavis (LSU DC) to get him here? Is LSU going to be outbid for him? How likely is that scenario really?

[TitanTiger 20,499]

Some of this is reminiscent of the back and forth we had over Tony Barbee and the basketball program. I don't mean his last year. I am going back to probably the two previous years. We had defenders wanting to give him more time and others saying his time had run out. I mean how long do you give a man before making the change? If we let CEJ stay and next year is a repeat of this year then there is another wasted year. Sometimes the stats don't add up. CEJ is great at halftime adjustments. Hey that's great except for the fact that the game has a first half too. The first half of a game is typically a disaster. I don't necessarily think being down on the field would make a giant difference. RG is down on the field and he and the other sideline position coaches can be getting their players taken care of. RG is essentially the assistant DC if he doesn't actually have that title. Fundamentals are lacking across the board in the linebackers and secondary. I would have expected some definite improvement from one year to the next. If we aren't getting top defensive recruits that just compounds the problem. Something is going to have to change. Now whether any coaches get moved out or around, I don't know. I just can't see another year making a difference for the positive.

If there a Bruce Pearl-level DC just waiting in the wings to give guaranteed improvement? Because we're on our 3rd DC in four years already. What makes you think the 4th time will be the charm?

I don't know Titan. I am not familiar with the people that are out there. It doesn't take a genius DC to make this defense adequate. I'm guessing CEJ gets another year. Ok I'm willing to go along with that. What then. How long do you give a man before finally pulling the plug 5 years 6 years 10 years? So unless there is a genius out there we never make the change. got it.

la Monroe's d-coordinator did pretty good against aTm. I know some will say aTm looked vanilla on offense, but u also have to note aTm and everybody that can pass the ball saw what ole ball coach did to cej and his defense. Just a simple pattern to follow right there

You can't look at that game and decide to go after that DC. Aside from the vanilla game plan it was the QBs first start for A&M.

[meh130 1,043]

This new style of play has left EJ in the dust cause he does not know how to stop it or slow it down. BTW, Ellis made that true-freshman QB look like a senior who's in the running for the 2014 Heisman.

I disagree. CEJ and his 4-2-5 were developed specifically for this style of play. Our problem is personnel. We do not have the DTs who can shed blocks and pressure the QB, we do not have DEs with speed and moves to control and pressure the edge, and we do not have DBs who can play the man coverage CEJ loves to play.

CEJ's 4-2-5 depends on disruptive DL play, and solid man coverage skills in the DBs. We have neither, but the lack of pass rush is what is so visible this year.

By the way, Ole Miss runs a 4-2-5 defense, and it is a Top-10 defense.

[cooltigger21 0]

Some of this is reminiscent of the back and forth we had over Tony Barbee and the basketball program. I don't mean his last year. I am going back to probably the two previous years. We had defenders wanting to give him more time and others saying his time had run out. I mean how long do you give a man before making the change? If we let CEJ stay and next year is a repeat of this year then there is another wasted year. Sometimes the stats don't add up. CEJ is great at halftime adjustments. Hey that's great except for the fact that the game has a first half too. The first half of a game is typically a disaster. I don't necessarily think being down on the field would make a giant difference. RG is down on the field and he and the other sideline position coaches can be getting their players taken care of. RG is essentially the assistant DC if he doesn't actually have that title. Fundamentals are lacking across the board in the linebackers and secondary. I would have expected some definite improvement from one year to the next. If we aren't getting top defensive recruits that just compounds the problem. Something is going to have to change. Now whether any coaches get moved out or around, I don't know. I just can't see another year making a difference for the positive.

If there a Bruce Pearl-level DC just waiting in the wings to give guaranteed improvement? Because we're on our 3rd DC in four years already. What makes you think the 4th time will be the charm?

I don't know Titan. I am not familiar with the people that are out there. It doesn't take a genius DC to make this defense adequate. I'm guessing CEJ gets another year. Ok I'm willing to go along with that. What then. How long do you give a man before finally pulling the plug 5 years 6 years 10 years? So unless there is a genius out there we never make the change. got it.

I'd say 3 years is reasonable.

But again, you can't just make change for the sake of change. You have to look at who's out there. I keep hearing names like Muschamp or Manny Diaz. But they have their questions too. For one, even if Muschamp gets fired, it's fairly well known that he and Jay Jacobs aren't big buddies. I doubt he'd even come here. He'll have plenty of other suitors for a DC position if he wants it. Manny Diaz had some good defenses at Miss. State, but was hot garbage at Texas. He's done pretty good at La Tech but its hard to tell there. They don't play very many good teams and they ones they have piled up the points (OU and AU).

Could we throw enough money at Chavis (LSU DC) to get him here? Is LSU going to be outbid for him? How likely is that scenario really?

The one person I could see is the DC at UF if Muschamp gets fired. We are likely to be facing the same scenario as to who we could hire even next year so that really is a wash as far as I'm concerned. This season is lost defensively. If you can't tackle by now you aren't going to. This was supposed to be fixed during spring practice. Obviously it wasn't. I figure Johnson will get another year. He gets one more spring to try to teach fundamental football. I don't see it getting any better. I would love to be wrong but I don't anticipate it.

[AuburnNTexas 7,151]

Dumb question but what coaches have shown the ability to slow down or shutdown spread offenses. The next issue is the type of athlete you recruit to stop the spread is not the same as who you recruit to stop Power pro teams. Since SEC still has the LSU's and Bama's it puts you in a quandary. If we were to change it would have to be a DC who besides being a great coach must be a great recruiter on D side of the ball or who can bring great recruiters with him.

[AURealist 2,185]

Remember that big defensive recruiting issue AU had last year? AU really wanted a kid who had what it took to play at CEJ's Star position?

Yes, Rashaan Evans was a 210 lb soaking wet high school outside linebacker who wanted to be a pass-rushing OLB in college. Bama saw him as way too small to be a pass rushing Jack LB candidate, and instead told him he would be a pass coverage SAM LB candidate in their defense. We saw him as a pass coverage Star candidate. If he ever grows enough to be a Jack LB at Bama, or a pass rushing OLB in the NFL is yet to be seen. Meanwhile, Corey Lemonier and Dee Ford have shown AU can put pass rushing 3-4 OLBs into the NFL--even when they start as 4-3 DEs.

Oh, and in case nobody noticed, Justin Garrett moved back to WLB from the Star. Because we know once some kid in high school is placed in a playing position it never, ever, changes and they are stuck there through their senior year.

Professional football teams do not run defensive schemes out of a 4-2-5 alignment.

I could be wrong.

Seriously. Few on this board know what a "4-2-5" defense is, or how it is different from other nickel defenses. A 4-2-5 is nothing more than a 4-3 with the Sam LB replaced with an additional strong safety. This can be a situational defense, or a base defense. Traditionally, in the NFL, situational nickel packages add a cornerback, not a safety. The problem is CBs are first and foremost pass defenders. Safeties, especially strong safeties have more run support duties. The NFL, like college, has moved to more and more three wide receiver sets and shotgun formations on first down and on second and medium and third and medium. The 3WR shotgun is the new, base offense for many NFL teams. To defend it, you need an additional DB, but you cannot sacrifice run support, especially with a TE and RB in the formation, and you cannot call a time out when the offense breaks huddle and the QB is under center to bring in an LB, or if the QB lines up in the shotgun, to bring in a DB. The solution is to go to a nickel set with an additional strong safety--a 4-2-5. It is a situational defense, but it is not a traditional nickel package.

Here is more:

Big nickel package emerging as NFL's hottest defensive trend

Yes, a prospective HS LB being forecast as a strong safety will disappoint the player. But you know what? That happens a lot. Do you remember the era of the undersized LB at Auburn? Some of those college LBs were projected as NFL safeties.

Now with NFL teams wanting more depth at strong safety to run Big Nickel packages, I don't see a drawback by having to strong safeties on the field at the same time.

If a kid wants to go pro, why would he want to spend four years learning and playing a high school defense?

Please stop with the "High School Defense" stuff. The 4-2-5 (and the similar 3-3-5) did not originate in high school. Gary Patterson and Dennis Franchione invented the 4-2-5 in 1988 at Pittsburgh State, and Patterson and Dick Bumpass further refined it at Utah State in the early 1990s. I am not sure when CEJ adopted it, but he is also seen as one of the originators of the defense. Charlie Strong, while DC at USCe, created the 3-3-5, again removing an LB and replacing him with an SS, but playing the remaining LBs stacked behind the DL. Strong has since abandoned the 3-3-5 as a base defense, but he uses it as an alternate. Similarly, most 4-3 teams now have an alternate 4-2-5 package--LSU and Mizzou come to mind. Even Bama has a 4-2-5 package. They ran it against us in 2010, and I read the Bama defense has been in a 4-2-5 personnel set and alignment more snaps than any other set this year. So what good is it to be an LB when you sit on the bench because the second string SS is out there on the field in a Big Nickel package 60% of the snaps?

Could we have done a better job recruiting Rashaan Evans? Probably. We should have told him he could play as a Star as a Freshman, as as he added weight, we could move him to WLB as a Sophomore. We could have told him with his edge speed we might blitz more with him as a WLB. We could have also said if he proved to be our best edge rusher, we could move him to DE, and point to Lemonier and Ford as AU pass rushers who were drafted into the NFL. We could have pointed out if his genetics did not allow him to grow big enough to be an NFL pass-rushing OLB, he would get the kind of experience at AU which would lead him to be drafted as a Strong Safety in the NFL. Or, the kid may just have wanted to get away from mom and dad, and go a few hours across the state.

Thanks-you for the info! I had responded to one of your posts earlier asking you to explain some of this, but lost that thread.

My knowledge on the subject is clearly not what I'd like it to be or it needs to be to be discussing this in depth. I did know that it is run as a 'package' in certain situations in the pros and that it wasn't developed in high schools. However, it is getting more popular in high schools because it's good against HS offenses.

The original gist of my post was in answer to possible reasons AU may have in recruiting for the defense and why some kids may choose other programs over Auburn's. It's about the salesmanship, not necessarily the facts. I mentioned RE simply as an example of someone who might not have heard what he wanted from AU and been persuaded by that kind of argument. If all the prospects are up on current football defense knowledge and history, then we have no problem.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

Dumb question but what coaches have shown the ability to slow down or shutdown spread offenses. The next issue is the type of athlete you recruit to stop the spread is not the same as who you recruit to stop Power pro teams. Since SEC still has the LSU's and Bama's it puts you in a quandary. If we were to change it would have to be a DC who besides being a great coach must be a great recruiter on D side of the ball or who can bring great recruiters with him.

The only one I can think of that's had a good bit of success was Derek Mason at Stanford (not the Vandy head coach) and John Chavis at LSU. Of course, we shredded LSU's defense this year, so there's that.

[cole256 17,084]

Our defense could give up 120 and it would be okay man lol....let's just keep what we got and hope for the best....something has to change though either players or coaches, one or the other is not good at all...

[Dual-Threat Rigby 8,674]

I think what it may show is that Malzahn doesn't believe CEJ suddenly forgot how to coach defense because of one bad head coaching year at Southern Miss. I tend to be in that same boat.

Maybe he just forgot how to teach tackling and develop depth at the defensive line?

[cooltigger21 0]

This new style of play has left EJ in the dust cause he does not know how to stop it or slow it down. BTW, Ellis made that true-freshman QB look like a senior who's in the running for the 2014 Heisman.

I disagree. CEJ and his 4-2-5 were developed specifically for this style of play. Our problem is personnel. We do not have the DTs who can shed blocks and pressure the QB, we do not have DEs with speed and moves to control and pressure the edge, and we do not have DBs who can play the man coverage CEJ loves to play.

CEJ's 4-2-5 depends on disruptive DL play, and solid man coverage skills in the DBs. We have neither, but the lack of pass rush is what is so visible this year.

By the way, Ole Miss runs a 4-2-5 defense, and it is a Top-10 defense.

If this depends on disruptive DL play then we are in trouble because we haven't done well in recruiting those kinds of players here. We didn't get them last year and so far this year it isn't looking real promising either. So there's two years worth of recruiting classes that don't have the type of player needed for this defense. That ain't good.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

This new style of play has left EJ in the dust cause he does not know how to stop it or slow it down. BTW, Ellis made that true-freshman QB look like a senior who's in the running for the 2014 Heisman.

I disagree. CEJ and his 4-2-5 were developed specifically for this style of play. Our problem is personnel. We do not have the DTs who can shed blocks and pressure the QB, we do not have DEs with speed and moves to control and pressure the edge, and we do not have DBs who can play the man coverage CEJ loves to play.

CEJ's 4-2-5 depends on disruptive DL play, and solid man coverage skills in the DBs. We have neither, but the lack of pass rush is what is so visible this year.

By the way, Ole Miss runs a 4-2-5 defense, and it is a Top-10 defense.

If this depends on disruptive DL play then we are in trouble because we haven't done well in recruiting those kinds of players here. We didn't get them last year and so far this year it isn't looking real promising either. So there's two years worth of recruiting classes that don't have the type of player needed for this defense. That ain't good.

And if we can't start getting more of them, it won't matter what type of defense we run.

[Dual-Threat Rigby 8,674]

Dumb question but what coaches have shown the ability to slow down or shutdown spread offenses. The next issue is the type of athlete you recruit to stop the spread is not the same as who you recruit to stop Power pro teams. Since SEC still has the LSU's and Bama's it puts you in a quandary. If we were to change it would have to be a DC who besides being a great coach must be a great recruiter on D side of the ball or who can bring great recruiters with him.

The athletes we have now are fast enough to keep up with spread teams, they just cant tackle or defend, and then these same athletes are great against pro style teams. So just some taller guys than we have now, and maybe better at tackling.

[TigerfanKM 37]

Will Muschamp after the Gators fire him for losing to FSU!!

War Eagle!!

[TitanTiger 20,499]

Will Muschamp after the Gators fire him for losing to FSU!!

War Eagle!!

Highly doubtful he'd come back. He doesn't like Jacobs from his last stint here. And Muschamp will have plenty of interests and options other than us if he's willing to be a DC again next season.

[TigerfanKM 37]

I bet he would come back if we showed him the $$$$$$$.....

[TitanTiger 20,499]

I bet he would come back if we showed him the $$$$$$$.....

You assume that money is what matters most to him. He won't be hurting for money anyway since he'll be able to live off the buyout/remainder of his head coaching deal. Several places would pay him just as much as we would minus the JJ headaches.

[cooltigger21 0]

Will Muschamp after the Gators fire him for losing to FSU!!

War Eagle!!

Highly doubtful he'd come back. He doesn't like Jacobs from his last stint here. And Muschamp will have plenty of interests and options other than us if he's willing to be a DC again next season.

I really don't think he'd fit in with Gus to be honest. I don't much care for retreads. It would be best for all for CEJ to figure out how to fix the problems. I don't want to have to make the change. As you say it's difficult on the players to learn a new system. We saw what happened to Jason Campbell here and during his time in the NFL. He will get his chance I figure so he better get it done.

[McLoofus 35,182]

It would be best for all for CEJ to figure out how to fix the problems. I don't want to have to make the change. As you say it's difficult on the players to learn a new system. We saw what happened to Jason Campbell here and during his time in the NFL. He will get his chance I figure so he better get it done.

I think I'm with you, cooltigger21.

[icanthearyou 4,463]

Will Muschamp after the Gators fire him for losing to FSU!!

War Eagle!!

Highly doubtful he'd come back. He doesn't like Jacobs from his last stint here. And Muschamp will have plenty of interests and options other than us if he's willing to be a DC again next season.

Strange, this seems to be a reoccurring theme.

[McLoofus 35,182]

Will Muschamp after the Gators fire him for losing to FSU!!

War Eagle!!

Highly doubtful he'd come back. He doesn't like Jacobs from his last stint here. And Muschamp will have plenty of interests and options other than us if he's willing to be a DC again next season.

Strange, this seems to be a reoccurring theme.

It wasn't with Gus or Chizik, and we went to 2 national title games in 4 years with those guys.

[cooltigger21 0]

Will Muschamp after the Gators fire him for losing to FSU!!

War Eagle!!

Highly doubtful he'd come back. He doesn't like Jacobs from his last stint here. And Muschamp will have plenty of interests and options other than us if he's willing to be a DC again next season.

Strange, this seems to be a reoccurring theme.

It wasn't with Gus or Chizik, and we went to 2 national title games in 4 years with those guys.

Both of them came back to be the head coach. That is a totally different thing. They also didn't have the mistrust of JJ that boom does.

[icanthearyou 4,463]

Will Muschamp after the Gators fire him for losing to FSU!!

War Eagle!!

Highly doubtful he'd come back. He doesn't like Jacobs from his last stint here. And Muschamp will have plenty of interests and options other than us if he's willing to be a DC again next season.

Strange, this seems to be a reoccurring theme.

It wasn't with Gus or Chizik, and we went to 2 national title games in 4 years with those guys.

I seem to remember that discussion with both. "Chizik got the job because he is controllable", "Gus won't come back unless he has full control".

[TitanTiger 20,499]

With Muschamp it wasn't about control one way or the other. I don't remember the specifics but it wasn't about control.

[cooltigger21 0]

If I remember it was about his contract and a few other things. Never knew what specifically. Whatever it was he just doesn't trust JJ at all. There are some hard feelings there.

[AU64 10,122]

If I remember it was about his contract and a few other things. Never knew what specifically. Whatever it was he just doesn't trust JJ at all. There are some hard feelings there.

Hey that's life...and maybe JJ thinks Boom was a prima donna making unreasonable requests....who knows? .....but seems that if JJ and WM had gotten along better then Boom might be at AU instead of UF...and Gus would be at Arky? Playing the "what if" game doesn't get anyone very far....and sometimes people don't know when they are well off.