Why its hard to Talk about Racism

[cole256 17,084]

Yeah if the theory of racism didn't exist was true you may would be right.

[aubfaninga 16]

Yeah if the theory of racism didn't exist was true you may would be right.

Who are you talking to Cole?

[AUDub 11,184]

Yeah if the theory of racism didn't exist was true you may would be right.

Cheer up, Cole!

It's Friday! Friday! Gotta get down on Friday!

[AUDub 11,184]

Thought this was an interesting article on al.com. This used to be an actual textbook.

The men and women of Alabama – from the Greatest Generation to Baby Boomers like me – learned Alabama history from the famous old textbook "Know Alabama."

It should be called "No Wonder, Alabama." It explains a lot.

Fourth graders until the '70s learned how living on a plantation was "one of the happiest ways of life." Just imagine yourself, the 1957 edition says, on your family plantation:

"How's it coming Sam," your father asks one of the old Negroes.

"'Fine, Marse Tom, 'jes fine. We got 'most more cotton than we can pick.' Then Sam chuckles to himself and goes back to picking as fast as he can.

"One of the little Negro boys is called 'Jig' He got that name because he dances so well when the Negroes play their banjos.

"Jig comes up and says 'Let me play.'"

"And you say "All right, but you be the captive Indian."

"That will be fun," Jig says, and he goes off gladly to be the Indian, to hide and the get himself captured."

Wait a minute. Whaaat? That was a real textbook.

One version of the book does at least acknowledge that life is not always perfect on a plantation. For the master, anyway:

"No plantation had a model group of slaves, for planters had to buy whatever slaves they could get. Some slaves were good workers and very obedient. Many took pride in what they did, and loved their cabins and the plantation as much as if they actually owned them. Others were lazy, disobedient, and sometimes vicious."

And then there was that unfortunate War Between the States.

"The Southerners had a right under the law to own slaves, and the Southern states had a right under the law to leave the United States. Many Southerners did not want to leave the Union. But when Abraham Lincoln was elected president in 1860, the South felt that they had to leave the Union to keep their rights."

And this is what Alabama taught its children about the Ku Klux Klan:

"The loyal white men of Alabama saw they could not depend on the laws or the state government to protect their families. They knew they had to do something to bring back law and order, to get the government back in the hands of honest men who knew how to run it.

"They (the Klan) held their courts in the dark forests at night; they passed sentence on the criminals and they carried out the sentence. Sometimes the sentence would be to leave the state.

"After a while the Klan struck fear in the hearts of the "carpetbaggers" and other lawless men who had taken control of the state.... The Negroes who had been fooled by the false promises of the "carpetbaggers" decided to get themselves jobs and settle down to make an honest living.

"Many of the Negroes in the South remained loyal to the white Southerners. Even though they had lately been freed from slavery, even though they had no education, they knew who their friends were."

This is what Alabama taught, until after Martin Luther King Jr. (he got one mention in the 1970 book) was killed. This is what was taught to Legislators who now want to dabble in education, to encourage teachers to ignore accepted science and teach whatever they happen to believe about evolution, or climate change, or presumably alien abduction.

Education is not a priority in Alabama, and it never has been. The No. 1 priority is and always has been indoctrination.

It's not easy to examine who we really are. It is not easy to see who we really were. Historian Hardy Jackson recalls a student who came through his class at Jacksonville State after growing up learning only these, um, traditional views of history.

The student was shaken. When he finished Jackson's more honest look at history, he had the words for his professor.

"I feel like going out and shooting Ol' Yeller," he said.

The past – like any hard truth – is painful. But if we teach only what we want to believe, about history or science or anything else, the future will be worse

Check out the comments. They'd be comedy gold if the sheer stupid of much of it didn't make me weep for humanity.

[autigeremt 6,717]

Yeah....you guys have me all figured out. I express my feelings toward an issue based on my experiences and now I'm labeled anti-intellectual and someone who can't see the forest for the trees on the basis of race relations and racism.

I'm glad I have wonderful liberals like you to keep me "straight". God knows I need it after my visits with Dr. Ben and the rest of you.

[autigeremt 6,717]

I've understood it for 30 years and I considered it a lot. Why am I supposed to see it their way or your way when I have lived it my way for 43 years? I don't see color and I refute racism. And I accept that it has existed for thousands of years but I do not agree with it and I haven't advanced racism so why should I sit back and accept my color as a badge of hate?

Now there's that defensiveness I was referring to. :-\

That's not defensiveness, homer. That's my reaction to how people judge whites these days. Racist until proven otherwise because I'm white. Agree or not that is what is spewed these days.

[autigeremt 6,717]

*SNIP*

The cycle dies Cole. It's not 100%, but with each generation bit thoughts of the last waste away.

Never seems like it's moving fast enough though, does it?

Nope. Tired of the labels myself....I didn't own anyone.

No, you didn't. You did, however, have some advantages from being a member of a privileged class. So did I.

(I said the "P" word. Now the fun begins. ;D/>)

Let's see. I grew up a poor kid on a Mill Hill that had long since degraded into a remnant of itself. Only by the grace of God did I not end up a child of the state. Yeah....I'd say I owe everyone a ton by now.

I didn't say your road was easy.

I didn't choose my birth "rights" either.

You are not getting the point. No one is asking you to apologize. They are asking you to consider and understand.

I've understood it for 30 years and I considered it a lot. Why am I supposed to see it their way or your way when I have lived it my way for 43 years? I don't see color and I refute racism. And I accept that it has existed for thousands of years but I do not agree with it and I haven't advanced racism so why should I sit back and accept my color as a badge of hate?

Every time a discussion about race is brought up, especially specific incidents, and you come in and don't want to acknowledge racism you just want to say all people racist or whatever that is dismissing racism imo

You only believe whites are capable of racism (according to some of your posts in the past) so don't try and point to me as not being able to acknowledge racism. Racism exists in every culture...blacks included.

[autigeremt 6,717]

I don't know privilege, so don't lump me into that segment of society.

I contend that you do know it and have simply not given it much thought. As I said at the beginning of the thread, people are uncomfortable when asked to consider an advantage they gained through unfair means, though through no fault of their own.

I've had to bust my ass my entire life to get to where I am and the color of my skin has nothing to do with it.

I know this is going to be hard for you to accept, but there are people that have busted their asses just as hard as you, faced additional hardships and were denied your level of success based on nothing other than the color of their skin.

Do I deny unfortunate historical disadvantages for many in the world? No.

You are aware we are only a half century past Jim Crow, right? Why is it so hard for you to acknowledge that many of these disadvantages still linger?

Lest you forget I'm 1/3 Cherokee Indian. My great grandfather hopped trains to escape the Trail of Tears.

Good for you. I'm a quarter Creek. You know what that makes me? White.

However, I do not believe color is the driver of inequality.

Not exclusively. It is a driver, not exclusively the driver.

...I've seen a lot of things in my life....things you have no idea of. You can read about them but I've been there and I base my perspective on my reality....

So have I and so do I. A large portion of my life was spent in some of the poorer, higher crime (read: ghetto) areas of Birmingham.

...Not one written about from the cushy seat of a Harvard desk chair or the desk of a Columbia professors esteemed vernacular....or that of a liberals arsenal to advance their own idea of America....

We can now check anti-intellectualism off the list.

yeah...you have all the answers (NOT)! This is a trait that you have that warms a mans soul. What a winner.

[AUDub 11,184]

Yeah....you guys have me all figured out. I express my feelings toward an issue based on my experiences and now I'm labeled anti-intellectual and someone who can't see the forest for the trees on the basis of race relations and racism.

I'm glad I have wonderful liberals like you to keep me "straight". God knows I need it after my visits with Dr. Ben and the rest of you.

I'll be out on the veranda, since I see you're already on the cross.

The world is much wider than your experiences, EMT. The Harvard/Columbia line was unnecessary and a tacit expression of anti-intellectualism.

[AUDub 11,184]

You only believe whites are capable of racism (according to some of your posts in the past) so don't try and point to me as not being able to acknowledge racism. Racism exists in every culture...blacks included.

His definition is "Racism=Prejudice+Power"

[AUDub 11,184]

I've understood it for 30 years and I considered it a lot. Why am I supposed to see it their way or your way when I have lived it my way for 43 years? I don't see color and I refute racism. And I accept that it has existed for thousands of years but I do not agree with it and I haven't advanced racism so why should I sit back and accept my color as a badge of hate?

Now there's that defensiveness I was referring to.

That's not defensiveness, homer. That's my reaction to how people judge whites these days. Racist until proven otherwise because I'm white. Agree or not that is what is spewed these days.

Sounds like you suffer from a persecution complex.

[AUDub 11,184]

I don't know privilege, so don't lump me into that segment of society.

I contend that you do know it and have simply not given it much thought. As I said at the beginning of the thread, people are uncomfortable when asked to consider an advantage they gained through unfair means, though through no fault of their own.

I've had to bust my ass my entire life to get to where I am and the color of my skin has nothing to do with it.

I know this is going to be hard for you to accept, but there are people that have busted their asses just as hard as you, faced additional hardships and were denied your level of success based on nothing other than the color of their skin.

Do I deny unfortunate historical disadvantages for many in the world? No.

You are aware we are only a half century past Jim Crow, right? Why is it so hard for you to acknowledge that many of these disadvantages still linger?

Lest you forget I'm 1/3 Cherokee Indian. My great grandfather hopped trains to escape the Trail of Tears.

Good for you. I'm a quarter Creek. You know what that makes me? White.

However, I do not believe color is the driver of inequality.

Not exclusively. It is a driver, not exclusively the driver.

...I've seen a lot of things in my life....things you have no idea of. You can read about them but I've been there and I base my perspective on my reality....

So have I and so do I. A large portion of my life was spent in some of the poorer, higher crime (read: ghetto) areas of Birmingham.

...Not one written about from the cushy seat of a Harvard desk chair or the desk of a Columbia professors esteemed vernacular....or that of a liberals arsenal to advance their own idea of America....

We can now check anti-intellectualism off the list.

yeah...you have all the answers (NOT)! This is a trait that you have that warms a mans soul. What a winner.

So if you're just going to get all strident and emotive and start flinging insults anytime anyone tries to have a conversation on the matter with you, perhaps it's time you get out of the kitchen since you can't stand the heat.

[autigeremt 6,717]

[autigeremt 6,717]

I've understood it for 30 years and I considered it a lot. Why am I supposed to see it their way or your way when I have lived it my way for 43 years? I don't see color and I refute racism. And I accept that it has existed for thousands of years but I do not agree with it and I haven't advanced racism so why should I sit back and accept my color as a badge of hate?

Now there's that defensiveness I was referring to.

That's not defensiveness, homer. That's my reaction to how people judge whites these days. Racist until proven otherwise because I'm white. Agree or not that is what is spewed these days.

Sounds like you suffer from a persecution complex.

Dr. Ben does it again! (Hey...sounds catchy)

[autigeremt 6,717]

Yeah....you guys have me all figured out. I express my feelings toward an issue based on my experiences and now I'm labeled anti-intellectual and someone who can't see the forest for the trees on the basis of race relations and racism.

I'm glad I have wonderful liberals like you to keep me "straight". God knows I need it after my visits with Dr. Ben and the rest of you.

I'll be out on the veranda, since I see you're already on the cross.

The world is much wider than your experiences, EMT. The Harvard/Columbia line was unnecessary and a tacit expression of anti-intellectualism.

Talk about being "touchy". Dr. Ben is all over it today. Enjoy your drink on the veranda. I'll be on the cross.

[autigeremt 6,717]

You only believe whites are capable of racism (according to some of your posts in the past) so don't try and point to me as not being able to acknowledge racism. Racism exists in every culture...blacks included.

His definition is "Racism=Prejudice+Power"

It's a good definition, and it exists in every culture.

[AUDub 11,184]

It's a good definition, and it exists in every culture.

It really depends on your definition. Can black folks be racist? I believe so. But, in our society, if you define racism as a system of group privilege by those who have a disproportionate share of society’s power, prestige, property, and privilege, then the answer is no.

[AUDub 11,184]

I've understood it for 30 years and I considered it a lot. Why am I supposed to see it their way or your way when I have lived it my way for 43 years? I don't see color and I refute racism. And I accept that it has existed for thousands of years but I do not agree with it and I haven't advanced racism so why should I sit back and accept my color as a badge of hate?

Now there's that defensiveness I was referring to.

That's not defensiveness, homer. That's my reaction to how people judge whites these days. Racist until proven otherwise because I'm white. Agree or not that is what is spewed these days.

Sounds like you suffer from a persecution complex.

Dr. Ben does it again! (Hey...sounds catchy)

Got my M.D. from BSU. :-\

[autigeremt 6,717]

It's a good definition, and it exists in every culture.

It really depends on your definition. Can black folks be racist? I believe so. But, in our society, if you define racism as a system of group privilege by those who have a disproportionate share of society’s power, prestige, property, and privilege, then the answer is no.

So the definition is a moving target based on historical events (in this case the European conquest of North America and the West Indies)? And only in the US or can we say globally?

Signed Mr. Weasel

[autigeremt 6,717]

I've understood it for 30 years and I considered it a lot. Why am I supposed to see it their way or your way when I have lived it my way for 43 years? I don't see color and I refute racism. And I accept that it has existed for thousands of years but I do not agree with it and I haven't advanced racism so why should I sit back and accept my color as a badge of hate?

Now there's that defensiveness I was referring to.

That's not defensiveness, homer. That's my reaction to how people judge whites these days. Racist until proven otherwise because I'm white. Agree or not that is what is spewed these days.

Sounds like you suffer from a persecution complex.

Dr. Ben does it again! (Hey...sounds catchy)

Got my M.D. from BSU. :-\

Great school! Just south of Bareback....correct?

[AUDub 11,184]

So the definition is a moving target based on historical events (in this case the European conquest of North America and the West Indies)? And only in the US or can we say globally?

Signed Mr. Weasel

In another time and context, it could just as easily be another ethnic group benefiting from a privileged position.

Signed,

Doctor bigbens42 B.S.

[autigeremt 6,717]

So the definition is a moving target based on historical events (in this case the European conquest of North America and the West Indies)? And only in the US or can we say globally?

Signed Mr. Weasel

In another time and context, it could just as easily be another ethnic group benefiting from a privileged position.

Signed,

Doctor bigbens42 B.S.

And THIS is what I have seen in several countries along the way. Furthermore I have seen it here in the U.S. and here in Alabama between blacks, whites, Asians...a lot of people. I conclude this wonderful jaunt through the wilderness to say that "I" feel that racism=power+prejudice+money and it exists globally. It's not just a US thing or a southern thing. If we are to call out racism we must do it in unison against all forms of it.

[icanthearyou 4,463]

So the definition is a moving target based on historical events (in this case the European conquest of North America and the West Indies)? And only in the US or can we say globally?

Signed Mr. Weasel

In another time and context, it could just as easily be another ethnic group benefiting from a privileged position.

Signed,

Doctor bigbens42 B.S.

And THIS is what I have seen in several countries along the way. Furthermore I have seen it here in the U.S. and here in Alabama between blacks, whites, Asians...a lot of people. I conclude this wonderful jaunt through the wilderness to say that "I" feel that racism=power+prejudice+money and it exists globally. It's not just a US thing or a southern thing. If we are to call out racism we must do it in unison against all forms of it.

Perhaps, rather than attempting to change the whole world, it would be more effective, and realistic, to work on our own part of it? If we are successful, then we could move on to "saving the world".

[autigeremt 6,717]

So the definition is a moving target based on historical events (in this case the European conquest of North America and the West Indies)? And only in the US or can we say globally?

Signed Mr. Weasel

In another time and context, it could just as easily be another ethnic group benefiting from a privileged position.

Signed,

Doctor bigbens42 B.S.

And THIS is what I have seen in several countries along the way. Furthermore I have seen it here in the U.S. and here in Alabama between blacks, whites, Asians...a lot of people. I conclude this wonderful jaunt through the wilderness to say that "I" feel that racism=power+prejudice+money and it exists globally. It's not just a US thing or a southern thing. If we are to call out racism we must do it in unison against all forms of it.

Perhaps, rather than attempting to change the whole world, it would be more effective, and realistic, to work on our own part of it? If we are successful, then we could move on to "saving the world".

Only if we can accept the fact that all of us have a part to play in it and that all of us are equally responsible for making it work. There are some who feel it should only be one group or another (depending on where you come from).

[icanthearyou 4,463]

So the definition is a moving target based on historical events (in this case the European conquest of North America and the West Indies)? And only in the US or can we say globally?

Signed Mr. Weasel

In another time and context, it could just as easily be another ethnic group benefiting from a privileged position.

Signed,

Doctor bigbens42 B.S.

And THIS is what I have seen in several countries along the way. Furthermore I have seen it here in the U.S. and here in Alabama between blacks, whites, Asians...a lot of people. I conclude this wonderful jaunt through the wilderness to say that "I" feel that racism=power+prejudice+money and it exists globally. It's not just a US thing or a southern thing. If we are to call out racism we must do it in unison against all forms of it.

Perhaps, rather than attempting to change the whole world, it would be more effective, and realistic, to work on our own part of it? If we are successful, then we could move on to "saving the world".

Only if we can accept the fact that all of us have a part to play in it and that all of us are equally responsible for making it work. There are some who feel it should only be one group or another (depending on where you come from).

I think you are on to something. However, I think that reflects how the real problem has been politicized. Like many problems, the answers and solutions, are probably found in practical discussion, not political rhetoric

I do understand your perspective now. Thank you.