Anti Vaxxer Honor Roll

[TitanTiger 20,530]

6 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

I don’t know what they are thinking, but they have the right to their opinion.

No, they don't - not if their opinion is that the vaccines are riskier than COVID, because that is not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact and data.

 

6 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

I would imagine their beliefs about the harm the vaccine may do, or their religious beliefs, etc far outweigh their concern about Covid.  It is abundantly clear that Biden is not going to get the compliance he would like no matter what mandates are imposes.

Their beliefs about what the harm the vaccine may do are based in bull**** and we don't have any obligation to give them any deference anymore than we're obligated to indulge people who think it's safer to go through a car accident without a seat belt based on a paltry few instances where someone was trapped in a burning car and couldn't unbuckle it.  The data tells us that far, far more people get killed or permanently and seriously injured being thrown from a car or thrashing around inside of it unbuckled than the once in a blue moon times the seatbelt impedes them from escaping.

As far as their religious beliefs, that depends.  There is no tenet of Scripture that would tell Christians carte blanche not to be vaccinated.  But we can discuss genuine conflicts of conscience and belief and perhaps find a compromise there.  I have no respect for people whose real objection is believing bull**** but uses a veneer of religiosity as an excuse.

What Biden will or won't get we'll see.  He's using the powers that his office allows to get as many people to get the vaccine as he can, after months and months of trying to reason with and persuade people.  If they don't like it, the want ads are your oyster.

 

6 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

Dr Fauci, in a NIH press conference yesterday, has finally admitted it is highly unlikely we are going to eradicate Covid.  This seems a departure from the doctrine he has maintained.  He also said there was only one virus that has been eliminated and that was small pox.  Around the 12:00 mark.

He still is pushing vaccination as a way to control, but not to eliminate/eradicate.  

I still don’t get this.  If you are vaccinated and therefore protected, why do you care if others are not?   Biden has segregated Americans by their vaccination status.  Not a good marketing strategy.

Yes, because too many people decided to be dumbasses, we've gotten to a point where variants will probably prevent complete eradication.  But what we can do is get this down to where it's manageable - where it doesn't spread like wildfire through the population and overwhelm our health care systems.  Where the vast majority with their heads screwed on straight get vaccinated so that the few dummies playing Russian roulette we have the resources to care for - paired with some treatments that improve outcomes for even them.

But we care because the data tells any sane person we should.  The more who are vaccinated, the fewer people who ever get COVID, the less it spreads, the less opportunity for variants to continue to develop rapidly, the fewer people who die, etc.  Because none of us are all on our own here.  Our choices affect everyone else.  How does this not compute?

 

6 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

Once again, I am vaccinated and think it would be a good idea for everyone to get vaccinated. I do, however, believe it is a personal choice whether you elect to be vaccinated or not.  I am protected, its up to you to protect yourself.

Our healthcare industry is well respected, so much so that people will live an unhealthy lifestyle and rely on the doctors to heal what is the result of that unhealthy lifestyle.  This is no different.

Well, at no point that I can remember were ICUs filled to beyond capacity because people got fat.  Or because of cancer.  Or because of the flu.  This WAS different.  To act like it isn't is either lying to yourself, to me, or both.

[homersapien 11,464]

On 10/13/2021 at 9:57 PM, Shoney'sPonyBoy said:

I didn't say liberals make the argument that anything is perfect (speaking of straw men).  I said they will not admit flaws.

Not being able to see (admit) flaws in something is the logical equivalent of seeing it as perfect. ("But then, you know that".)

I said That's Different© is their favorite phrase and they 100% of the time will excuse the behavior of Democrats.  

I don't know what the rest of anything you said has to do with anything I have said, but I can answer the question, or at least give you my theory on it.  At least that puts us on an equal basis. 

I think there are two reasons:  Number one, conservative thought has been gaslighted for so long by the Big Three mainstream thought influencers (the entertainment industry, the media, and universities) that conservatives don't trust mainstream sources anymore. You left out the Republican party.

Number two, people who lean conservative do so in the first pace because they naturally gravitate toward a viewpoint of personal responsibility and individuality.  They don't expect anyone else to take care of them nor do they feel obligated to take care of other capable adults. I think people who lean conservative have a genetic disposition to do so, which is often accentuated by their parents.  As for not believing or rejecting the idea of not being taken care of", that's a hypocritical position. Just look at all the anti-vaxxers who wound up in the ICU on ventilators.

One can proclaim their self sufficiency all they want but unless they are a hunter-gatherer in a wilderness area it's nonsense. "No man is an island" has been literally and sociologically true for thousands of years.

And they have become very weary of liberals gaslighting that viewpoint, as you very obviously intentionally did above with your faux question. What faux question?  I expect a reasoned answer on all questions unless they are obviously rhetorical.

So there's not only a distrust of mainstream sources but a boiling resentment as well. That's an understatement.  I'd also point out it's completely irrational to distrust "mainstream" sources if the alternative is wacko partisan sources.  (See, I can be unassailably vague as well.)

I could get into details on that, but I essentially think that's it in a nutshell.  Thanks for omitting the details, which - if typical - I can certainly forgo.

 

Edited October 15, 2021 by homersapien

[I_M4_AU 8,012]

13 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

He's using the powers that his office allows to get as many people to get the vaccine as he can, after months and months of trying to reason with and persuade people.  If they don't like it, the want ads are your oyster.

Those powers maybe contested in court.  Some one will have to be hurt before those powers can be challenged. With the threat of an OSHA fine of $14,000 (soon to be $70,000) who would hire an unvaccinated worker?  All the mandates are a threat by Biden, except government employees and government contractors, as OSHA has not come down with their guidance.  To put this under OSHA is a stretch at best, but Biden.

30 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

This WAS different.  To act like it isn't is either lying to yourself, to me, or both.

It would have been more accurate to say “in their minds it is no different”, but that would be a supposition on my part. 

[TitanTiger 20,530]

Just now, I_M4_AU said:

Those powers maybe contested in court.  Some one will have to be hurt before those powers can be challenged. With the threat of an OSHA fine of $14,000 (soon to be $70,000) who would hire an unvaccinated worker?  All the mandates are a threat by Biden, except government employees and government contractors, as OSHA has not come down with their guidance.  To put this under OSHA is a stretch at best, but Biden.

Maybe, maybe not.  Either way, I don't blame him for finally resorting to whatever means he has at his disposal to get people to do the sensible thing.

 

Just now, I_M4_AU said:

It would have been more accurate to say “in their minds it is no different”, but that would be a supposition on my part. 

But again, "in their minds" is to give credence to people believing bull**** and putting that bull**** on the same level as fact.  At some point you have to wake the **** up and realize that the whole world isn't pulling a massive con on you.  

[homersapien 11,464]

On 10/8/2021 at 4:52 PM, I_M4_AU said:

1) I can understand the anti-vaxxers concerns.  Not all reasons are valid, but some are, as why would a person that has survived Covid with natural immunity required to have the vaccine.

 

 2) You’re good at these triggers. Maybe you shouldn’t be so eager to *pounce*.

3) Every time there is an emergency is the time we volunteer to give up our rights.  I’m just concerned it’s happening now.

4) Mandating vaccines is the political act here.  Biden slow walked it by stating he would not mandate vaccines as late as last Spring.  Then when the numbers were not what he anticipated he gave up and instituted the mandate via OSHA.  Now people are being laid off from a political action Biden took.  

5) Can you explain why Biden said he would like to see 97-98% of the population vaccinated before we can get back to normal?

1.  First, the vaccine will not harm a healthy person who has already had Covid. More importantly, no one is "required" to get the vaccine.  They have a choice. 

2.  What "trigger"?  I have no idea what you mean.

3.. That is sometimes true, typically in the case of literal (fighting other humans) or figurative war (fighting a virus). 

4.  Yes, just as in a war, the POTUS is responsible for certain indirect "mandates" (although in this case - just as most mandates in a war - it is not an absolute personal mandate).

5) If that's true, I can only assume that he feels that is what will be necessary to achieve "herd immunity", a key to winning this war.

 

Edited October 15, 2021 by homersapien

[homersapien 11,464]

4 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

Is there any consideration of natural immunity in the population?  

Isn’t natural immunity more robust than the vaccine we have?  

Why is it not in the calculations?  

Could it be Biden would have to test everyone for anti-bodies and that would not fit in his calculations of 97-98% vaccination rate?

 

The various experts in both the government and the private sector have addressed those questions to the extent they have answers and have made educated guesses/or recommendations when hard answers are absent. 

I don't think it will serve any purpose for me to paraphrase them.

[homersapien 11,464]

13 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

Can you remember back in February when you were going to get the vaccination asap?  Was your decision based on your highest priority of protecting yourself?  I know mine was.  Yes, that was obviously my primary reason.

After I was fully vaccinated we were told by the CDC if you were fully vaccinated you could not catch the virus and, therefore, you couldn’t spread the virus.  Not spreading the virus was secondary back then.  I’m sure had a more noble approach, but I was delayed in getting mine because of all the people that were either online or on the phone at some ungodly hour to make their appointments.  I’m pretty sure most of those people were thinking about protecting themselves.  I generally agree. (But I assume the CDC had equally emphatic epidemiological concerns as well, since that's their mission.)

If you are talking about the here and now, we have had this vaccine since December of 2020 and a lot has been determined about its efficacy.  One of the things that makes it hard to sell is that it will not protect you from Covid like we were told and you can still spread it. No vaccine offers 100% protection so that shouldn't be a surprise.  Just like the Flu vaccine, the covid vaccines protect you from a serious case, and generally make you less infectious than with a unimpeded, full blown case of covid.

 

 Although the vaccine is very effective at preventing severe cases of Covid, for some people that fact is not enough to outweigh the perceived risk.  It is their choice in a free society.  In a totalitarian society, you’re correct, the government will tell you what is best. Absolutely disagree.  Totalitarian societies will tell you whatever the oligarchy or Dear Leader feels will cement their power.

Biden has us so close to a totalitarian society that he insists on destroying people’s livelihood unless they conform to his wishes.  That is laughable

 

The airline industry is a prime example; flying around on airplanes is not a super spreader, in fact, because of the HEPA filters used on aircraft they are very safe in preventing the spread.  Yet, because all airlines are considered *government contract employees* they are mandated to have a vaccine or get fired.  This is as arbitrary as it gets.  The airline CEOs that I have heard are fine with this.

 

We have lived with this virus for a year and a half and have come up with effective mitigation strategies that will allow people that contract the virus a good chance of beating it if given early enough.  Merck is on the verge of getting a therapeutic approved to greatly reduce death from people that contract the virus. So why the big push to get people fired? You have to ask yourself; why the bullheaded approach to vaccines?  Because vaccines are still the absolute best way to counter an infectious virus than has a relatively high lethality.

 

Edited October 15, 2021 by homersapien

[homersapien 11,464]

On 10/12/2021 at 10:26 PM, wdefromtx said:

Coroner listed main cause of death as myocardial infarction and secondary/contributing factors as severe acute myocarditis caused by an adverse reaction to the vaccine. 
 

Basically, it caused severe inflammation, arrhythmia (really rapid heart rate) that caused a piece of plaque to break loose, then a clot formed and caused the heart attack. 

Sounds to me like he was not a candidate for the virus.

Did he not know about the infarction beforehand?   When was his last physical checkup?

[homersapien 11,464]

1 hour ago, wdefromtx said:

LOL, so now you don't want to believe what a doctor says about something regarding one of the vaccines. You guys are a trip. 

Can't blame a person for not wanting to get the vaccine if they are worried about the potential of this happening when the vaccine itself doesn't guarantee it will stop you from getting the virus. 

What part of risk assessment are you having a problem with???

No vaccines are 100% effective.  The risk of the vaccine is much much less that the risk of covid.

If you think you may be at risk by taking the vaccine, consult your personal physician.  But if you are still worried about risk, you'd better be prepared quarantine yourself for the duration.

Simply avoiding the vaccine because you won't accept the risk it poses compared to getting infected is totally irrational.

 

[wdefromtx 3,159]

25 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Sounds to me like he was not a candidate for the virus.

Did he not know about the infarction beforehand?   When was his last physical checkup?

He had the infarction 2 days after getting vaccine. I was told it was 6-7 months prior when he had his last yearly checkup. 

[wdefromtx 3,159]

21 minutes ago, homersapien said:

What part of risk assessment are you having a problem with???

No vaccines are 100% effective.  The risk of the vaccine is much much less that the risk of covid.

If you think you may be at risk by taking the vaccine, consult your personal physician.  But if you are still worried about risk, you'd better be prepared quarantine yourself for the duration.

Simply avoiding the vaccine because you won't accept the risk it poses compared to getting infected is totally irrational.

 

LOL, I have had more problems from the vaccine than the virus itself........

Edited October 14, 2021 by wdefromtx

[homersapien 11,464]

9 hours ago, wdefromtx said:

He had the infarction 2 days after getting vaccine. I was told it was 6-7 months prior when he had his last yearly checkup. 

I am not a physician so I don't want to belabor this, but was the infarction caused by plaque or a blood clot?  This sounds like something that was caused by a pre-existing condition.

Bottom line, who knows?  Maybe he really was one of those. 0.0......01% the vaccine killed before covid did.

Sucks for him, but it's certainly not statistically relevant to everyone else. As Pony has pointed out, virtually every medical procedure has an associated risk, just as forgoing a medical procedure does.

 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2021 by homersapien

[homersapien 11,464]

9 hours ago, wdefromtx said:

LOL, I have had more problems from the vaccine than the virus itself........

Which only proves you at least avoided a severe or fatal case of covid. (and not much else)

Edited October 15, 2021 by homersapien

[Leftfield 2,677]

2 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

Dr Fauci, in a NIH press conference yesterday, has finally admitted it is highly unlikely we are going to eradicate Covid.  This seems a departure from the doctrine he has maintained.

Fauci has never claimed that Covid was likely to be eliminated. He has said the exact opposite since very early into the pandemic.

 

2 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

After I was fully vaccinated we were told by the CDC if you were fully vaccinated you could not catch the virus and, therefore, you couldn’t spread the virus. 

Similarly, the CDC never said you couldn't catch the virus. The efficacy of all the vaccines was tested and announced well before the general public began receiving them. The CDC has maintained all along that vaccines are not 100% effective.

You also ignore the fact that the vaccines were developed before the Delta variant came about, which is why they aren't as effective against it. The Delta variant didn't emerge until the same month the Pfizer vaccine was released, and didn't get to the US for several months after that.

 

[TitanTiger 20,530]

 Before Delta came along, Pfizer and Moderna said the mix vaccines were between 93 and 95% effective at preventing COVID. No one ever claimed there was zero possibility of a breakthrough case. 

[I_M4_AU 8,012]

2 hours ago, Leftfield said:

Fauci has never claimed that Covid was likely to be eliminated. He has said the exact opposite since very early into the pandemic.

Fauci has been on every side of this pandemic since the beginning.  It’s hard to believe he has any credibility left.

 

3 hours ago, Leftfield said:

Similarly, the CDC never said you couldn't catch the virus

CDC Data Suggests Vaccinated Don’t Carry, Can’t Spread Virus

“Vaccinated people do not carry the virus — they don’t get sick,” Dr. Rochelle Walensky, director of the CDC, told MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow on Tuesday. That’s “not just in the clinical trials, but it’s also in real-world data.”

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/04/cdc-data-suggests-vaccinated-dont-carry-cant-spread-virus.html

3 hours ago, Leftfield said:

You also ignore the fact that the vaccines were developed before the Delta variant came about, which is why they aren't as effective against it

I’m not ignoring the Delta Variant at all.   I think Biden did because he didn’t get in front of it even though Fauci knew about it and warned us about it early.  Biden sat on his hands and when it was found out that THE vaccine didn’t prevent the vaccinated to get breakthrough cases and could spread the virus, he had no answer.

I remember in March on 2020 the then President was responsible for thousands of deaths because he didn’t take the Coronavirus seriously enough.  Now we have a President that didn’t take the Delta Variant serious enough and we blame the unvaccinated.  Left logic.

[I_M4_AU 8,012]

1 hour ago, TitanTiger said:

 Before Delta came along, Pfizer and Moderna said the mix vaccines were between 93 and 95% effective at preventing COVID. No one ever claimed there was zero possibility of a breakthrough case. 

“Vaccinated people do not carry the virus — they don’t get sick,” Dr. Rochelle Walensky, director of the CDC, told MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow on Tuesday. That’s “not just in the clinical trials, but it’s also in real-world data.”

Walensky was referring to a new CDC study that suggests those fully inoculated with the vaccines produced by Moderna and Pfizer don’t transmit the virus.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/04/cdc-data-suggests-vaccinated-dont-carry-cant-spread-virus.html

[Leftfield 2,677]

17 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

Fauci has been on every side of this pandemic since the beginning.  It’s hard to believe he has any credibility left.

You really do only hear what you want, don't you? First of all, you were the one that used the term "eradicate," and Fauci plainly makes a distinction between eradicate and eliminate  (which I wasn't, hence why I used the term "eliminate"). So even on the semantic level where you try to "catch" him, you fail. Good Lord, man, he says within the first 20 seconds of the video that it won't be eradicated.

Secondly, even when he said "eliminate," he says it in regards to "in some countries," which is not an unreasonable assertion, considering the small population density and remoteness of some areas. 

 

32 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

CDC Data Suggests Vaccinated Don’t Carry, Can’t Spread Virus

“Vaccinated people do not carry the virus — they don’t get sick,” Dr. Rochelle Walensky, director of the CDC, told MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow on Tuesday. That’s “not just in the clinical trials, but it’s also in real-world data.”

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/04/cdc-data-suggests-vaccinated-dont-carry-cant-spread-virus.html

I can only guess you're hoping everyone only reads the quote and not the actual article, because the article only disproves your point. Her statement was clearly a generalization, though an admittedly poor one. If you bothered to scroll down then you certainly saw this:

"Even the Centers for Disease Control hedged on Walensky’s claims. “Dr. Walensky spoke broadly during this interview,” a CDC spokesperson told the Times. “It’s possible that some people who are fully vaccinated could get Covid-19. The evidence isn’t clear whether they can spread the virus to others. We are continuing to evaluate the evidence."

....but then, why state all the facts when you're trying to back up your misleading argument, right?

 

36 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

I’m not ignoring the Delta Variant at all.   I think Biden did because he didn’t get in front of it even though Fauci knew about it and warned us about it early.  Biden sat on his hands and when it was found out that THE vaccine didn’t prevent the vaccinated to get breakthrough cases and could spread the virus, he had no answer.

I remember in March on 2020 the then President was responsible for thousands of deaths because he didn’t take the Coronavirus seriously enough.  Now we have a President that didn’t take the Delta Variant serious enough and we blame the unvaccinated.  Left logic.

Your pattern has come full circle again: Make weak points, that aren't even backed up by the evidence you present, and in acknowledgment that you're flailing about you throw out the straw man. 

 

[jj3jordan 2,061]

6 hours ago, homersapien said:

Sounds to me like he was not a candidate for the virus.

Did he not know about the infarction beforehand?   When was his last physical checkup?

The infarction occurred because of the plaque not before it. Myocardial infarction is doctor speak for a heart attack.

Why would anyone be a candidate for the virus? What are you talking about?

[I_M4_AU 8,012]

@Leftfield, you can spin anything, good on you man.  You said Fauci NEVER said it can be eliminated, I just showed you he did.

Walensky, the Director of the CDC, plainly stated if you are vaccinated you don’t get sick on Rachel Maddow’s show and that was a verbal statement with out the walk back you saw in the article.  You clearly said that the CDC never SAID you couldn’t catch the virus.  I just showed you that she did.

You said things I mentioned were not true and I proved that they were.  Maybe next time when you call me out, be more specific about your objections.

[Leftfield 2,677]

2 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

@Leftfield, you can spin anything, good on you man.  You said Fauci NEVER said it can be eliminated, I just showed you he did.

Walensky, the Director of the CDC, plainly stated if you are vaccinated you don’t get sick on Rachel Maddow’s show and that was a verbal statement with out the walk back you saw in the article.  You clearly said that the CDC never SAID you couldn’t catch the virus.  I just showed you that she did.

You said things I mentioned were not true and I proved that they were.  Maybe next time when you call me out, be more specific about your objections.

I plainly said in my post that I was not originally making a distinction between eradicated and eliminated. Had I known the context of the video you were going to post, I would have used the word eradicated, as that was the argument you were making. So in the definition you were pushing you were wrong...Fauci did not say that.

I already admitted that the quote from Walensky was a poor generalization, since taken out of the context of the CDCs actual findings, which you are consciously doing in a vain attempt to win an argument, is misleading. What she said was irresponsible, but there's also a difference between a hyperbolic statement on a political entertainment show and the official written guidance of the CDC. 

You are intellectually dishonest, and your continual spread of this misinformation in an attempt to erode confidence in those trying to help is a danger to others. 

 

[homersapien 11,464]

Worst case of confirmation bias imaginable.  I am sure that some scientist has said "we'll eliminate measles".  

So we simply cannot trust what they say when it comes to vaccines. 

 

Edited October 15, 2021 by homersapien

[I_M4_AU 8,012]

10 hours ago, Leftfield said:

I plainly said in my post that I was not originally making a distinction between eradicated and eliminated. Had I known the context of the video you were going to post, I would have used the word eradicated, as that was the argument you were making. So in the definition you were pushing you were wrong...Fauci did not say that.

I already admitted that the quote from Walensky was a poor generalization, since taken out of the context of the CDCs actual findings, which you are consciously doing in a vain attempt to win an argument, is misleading. What she said was irresponsible, but there's also a difference between a hyperbolic statement on a political entertainment show and the official written guidance of the CDC. 

You are intellectually dishonest, and your continual spread of this misinformation in an attempt to erode confidence in those trying to help is a danger to others. 

 

Thank you, may I have another?

We obviously disagree with the validity of the scientists that are anointed by Biden and the MSM as the true tellers of truths.  I do believe in the power of the vaccine, but do not believe we are being told a complete picture of how best to beat this virus for political reasons.

You are a sheep.  I hope Fauci allows you to have a Happy Thanksgiving and a great Christmas.

[homersapien 11,464]

1 hour ago, I_M4_AU said:

Thank you, may I have another?

We obviously disagree with the validity of the scientists that are anointed by Biden and the MSM as the true tellers of truths.  I do believe in the power of the vaccine, but do not believe we are being told a complete picture of how best to beat this virus for political reasons.

You are a sheep.  I hope Fauci allows you to have a Happy Thanksgiving and a great Christmas.

Uhh, Fauci was appointed by Reagan.

[I_M4_AU 8,012]

3 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Uhh, Fauci was appointed by Reagan.

He didn’t become political until recently.