Free Speech On Campus

[TexasTiger 12,947]

This is one the better and more balanced  essays I’ve read on the topic, prompted by recent incidents at prestigious law schools. 
 

https://davidlat.substack.com/p/is-free-speech-in-american-law-schools?s=r

The issue is more complex and nuanced than many think, but our very democracy depends on us getting it right. For students who disrupt scheduled events, versus mutual shouting matches between opposing sides in a public square, there needs to be real world accountability. Read to the end to see an example of that.

[AU9377 4,960]

This is an incredibly important paragraph, in my opinion.

When these law students become lawyers, and many of them have to go to court or a negotiating table, they will have to listen to the other side—whether they like it or not, and no matter how “offensive,” “triggering,” or “violent” they find the views of the other side to be. Shouting down opposing counsel, then claiming that you’re just engaging in your own form of “free speech” or “zealous advocacy,” will not fly in the world beyond Yale Law School.

[TexasTiger 12,947]

20 minutes ago, AU9377 said:

This is an incredibly important paragraph, in my opinion.

When these law students become lawyers, and many of them have to go to court or a negotiating table, they will have to listen to the other side—whether they like it or not, and no matter how “offensive,” “triggering,” or “violent” they find the views of the other side to be. Shouting down opposing counsel, then claiming that you’re just engaging in your own form of “free speech” or “zealous advocacy,” will not fly in the world beyond Yale Law School.

Indeed. If judges stop offering clerkships and firms stop hiring graduates, that may get their attention. 

[AU9377 4,960]

59 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Indeed. If judges stop offering clerkships and firms stop hiring graduates, that may get their attention. 

Larger firms remind me of nicely dressed Chinese sweat shops, generating countless hours of, more often than not, unnecessary work, resulting in thousands of billable hours performing tasks that any secretary can perform.  I will readily admit, it is a nice pay day all the way around and I judge nobody that plays that game.  The fact that it is a game is the only frustrating part to me.

[TexasTiger 12,947]

13 minutes ago, AU9377 said:

Larger firms remind me of nicely dressed Chinese sweat shops, generating countless hours of, more often than not, unnecessary work, resulting in thousands of billable hours performing tasks that any secretary can perform.  I will readily admit, it is a nice pay day all the way around and I judge nobody that plays that game.  The fact that it is a game is the only frustrating part to me.

I’m not sure about any secretary, but they do tend to bill 70+ hours a week in the biggest firms and I suspect a good paralegal could do quite a bit.

[SLAG-91 1,483]

Article is indeed on point. We're failing at the basics of debate in a lot of ways, right down to the molecular level of common courtesy, especially in a controlled environment designed for the sharing of opinions. 

 

[AU9377 4,960]

20 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

I’m not sure about any secretary, but they do tend to bill 70+ hours a week in the biggest firms and I suspect a good paralegal could do quite a bit.

That was just my personal experience.  I was billing 60 hours/week to read boxes of irrelevant emails and memos while representing a massive U.S. retailer.  There were 9 of us doing the same thing and being billed at $240/hr.  We did this every day, usually all day, for over 6 months.  I was being paid well, but not that well.  I'm still not sure who looked worse, the firm that enjoyed milking it for all it was worth or the company that blindly paid the bills.

[SaltyTiger 7,816]

22 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

Indeed. If judges stop offering clerkships and firms stop hiring graduates, that may get their attention. 

Good for some maybe to consider those consequences. Most grow to realize how foolish some things they did as students were.

[icanthearyou 4,463]

On 3/17/2022 at 12:23 PM, TexasTiger said:

Indeed. If judges stop offering clerkships and firms stop hiring graduates, that may get their attention. 

I think that is incredibly naive.  This particular profession is the heart of politics, the heart of power.  They know exactly what they are doing.  The orchestrated infighting helps them thrive.  It is what makes them important, relevant. 

I disagree with the author.  This is not about the students.  This is about our culture/character, at the very top.  Free speech isn't even the primary issue.

 

Edited March 19, 2022 by icanthearyou

[DKW 86 7,426]

I am reminded that Concerned Parents were demonstrating their Free Speech with School Boards and the NSBA Leader completely over-reacted and wrote a letter, with the help of the Biden Administration, calling for the FBI to intervene with these "Domestic Terrorists." In America, it almost 100% depends on your POV and nothing else. On this forum, we have multiple Whataboutisms and Strawmen daily, yet it only seems to get called on for one point of view. 

The point of view with all this is that the people acting like "The Cool Kids" today will certainly not be in the The Cool Kid's Club" a very few years from now. Shouting down anyone is just showing your immaturity. I live for the day when America wakes back up to the "I hate what you say but will defend to the death your right to say it." We have been so much failures at teaching that to our children.

Edited March 19, 2022 by DKW 86

[bigbird 60,556]

4 minutes ago, DKW 86 said:

On this forum, we have multiple Whataboutisms and Strawmen daily, yet it only seems to get called on for one point of view. 

 

[DKW 86 7,426]

Ride it till the end... 6:15 and on.

 

Edited March 19, 2022 by DKW 86

[icanthearyou 4,463]

13 minutes ago, DKW 86 said:

I am reminded that Concerned Parents were demonstrating their Free Speech with School Boards and the NSBA Leader completely over-reacted and wrote a letter, with the help of the Biden Administration, calling for the FBI to intervene with these "Domestic Terrorists." In America, it almost 100% depends on your POV and nothing else. On this forum, we have multiple Whataboutisms and Strawmen daily, yet it only seems to get called on for one point of view. 

The point of view with all this is that the people acting like "The Cool Kids" today will certainly not be in the The Cool Kid's Club" a very few years from now. Shouting down anyone is just showing your immaturity. I live for the day when America wakes back up to the "I hate what you say but will defend to the death your right to say it." We have been so much failures at teaching that to our children.

Who are the "cool kids"?  I do not understand the reference.  Are those the people shouting down and threatening school board members?  Are they the activist who shout down those who spread hate speech?

[icanthearyou 4,463]

11 minutes ago, bigbird said:

 

What does that mean?

[icanthearyou 4,463]

As long as we look for our answers in the partisan political narratives, we will decline as a free, just society.

[DKW 86 7,426]

12 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

Who are the "cool kids"?  I do not understand the reference.  Are those the people shouting down and threatening school board members?  Are they the activist who shout down those who spread hate speech?

And the point missed you completely. The Cool Kids are the ones that THINK they are so Cool that they get to define who gets to speak at all. They are the whiny sniveling twats that get offended at EVERYTHING. They ruin movies and standup comedy. THEY BRAND EVERY SINGLE WORD AS HATE SPEECH and then demand that THEY get to moderate it. They Look Like Nazis, and Act Like Nazis and then CALL EVERYONE ELSE NAZIS. 

Edited March 19, 2022 by DKW 86

[jj3jordan 2,053]

ICHY misses points often, blames poster.

[TexasTiger 12,947]

1 hour ago, icanthearyou said:

I think that is incredibly naive.  This particular profession is the heart of politics, the heart of power.  They know exactly what they are doing.  The orchestrated infighting helps them thrive.  It is what makes them important, relevant. 

I disagree with the author.  This is not about the students.  This is about our culture/character, at the very top.  Free speech isn't even the primary issue.

 

Many students think civil disobedience means you protest whatever you want but receiving consequences is unfair. That’s not the concept. Over half the student body signed a document and gave it little thought. They’re at Yale. They believe they’ve punched their ticket. But if certain firms stopped interviewing there and fewer judges offered clerkships, that would get many students attention. It might not impact the 100 or so who actually protested, but many others would start question the behavior more. Right now, there’s no incentive to even care about it.

[bigbird 60,556]

38 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

What does that mean?

"He ain't lying" means that he is telling the truth.

[TexasTiger 12,947]

On 3/18/2022 at 10:15 AM, AU9377 said:

That was just my personal experience.  I was billing 60 hours/week to read boxes of irrelevant emails and memos while representing a massive U.S. retailer.  There were 9 of us doing the same thing and being billed at $240/hr.  We did this every day, usually all day, for over 6 months.  I was being paid well, but not that well.  I'm still not sure who looked worse, the firm that enjoyed milking it for all it was worth or the company that blindly paid the bills.

I’ll defer to your experience. Interesting that I actually did more tasks requiring legal knowledge/background during summer jobs (not big firms) after my first & second year than some of these law graduates with big firms.

I don’t know many who find that work truly satisfying. I know big New York firms now start around $200K.

[icanthearyou 4,463]

1 hour ago, DKW 86 said:

And the point missed you completely. The Cool Kids are the ones that THINK they are so Cool that they get to define who gets to speak at all. They are the whiny sniveling twats that get offended at EVERYTHING. They ruin movies and standup comedy. THEY BRAND EVERY SINGLE WORD AS HATE SPEECH and then demand that THEY get to moderate it. They Look Like Nazis, and Act Like Nazis and then CALL EVERYONE ELSE NAZIS. 

Sounds like a typical narrative.  Are they always wrong?  Is the entire concept of social justice ignorant?

Edited March 19, 2022 by icanthearyou

[icanthearyou 4,463]

51 minutes ago, bigbird said:

"He ain't lying" means that he is telling the truth.

So we have hypocrites?  Why not be honest and call them out?  Why be vague about it? 

Do you consider yourself as part of a group of victims?

[I_M4_AU 7,853]

3 hours ago, icanthearyou said:

This is not about the students.  This is about our culture/character, at the very top.  Free speech isn't even the primary issue.

 

28 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

Why be vague about it? 

Good question.

[TexasTiger 12,947]

57 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

So we have hypocrites?  Why not be honest and call them out?  Why be vague about it?

I’m calling you out as a hypocrite at your request. You’re often intentionally vague by design. Just make your argument if you’re truly interested in communication instead of acting like you’re playing a game.

[icanthearyou 4,463]

25 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

I’m calling you out as a hypocrite at your request. You’re often intentionally vague by design. Just make your argument if you’re truly interested in communication instead of acting like you’re playing a game.

I appreciate that.  What can I clarify?