Difference in Gender and Sex

[aubaseball 2,602]

On 3/27/2023 at 10:23 AM, icanthearyou said:

Celebrity opinion is being paraded like academic/professional opinion.  

Super duper rich right here.   Like a professional’s or academic’s “Opinion” is better than anyone else’s.   It’s all an opinion!   

[TexasTiger 12,853]

Gender is fluid. Gender is a construct. But any effort to slow medicalization is “genocide”? Even if you vigorously oppose all this legislation, do you find the claim of genocide over the top?

[I_M4_AU 7,813]

I have often wondered why the pushback the LGBTQlkdgn Coalition has for banning puberty blockers and cross sex hormones to minors.  If the child is truly gender dysphoric they can still go through their transition after they have become an adult.  This is what has happened with many notable trans activists Rachel Levine being one of them.  He even had children before he transitioned.

Could it be that the trans community wants to increase their *membership* as much as possible and know that 80% + of gender dysphoric children will outgrow the dysphoria by the time they get past puberty?  

[DKW 86 7,419]

How bad has it gotten? Change.org has a "Drop the T" Petition. 

https://www.metroweekly.com/2015/11/change-org-petition-asks-to-drop-the-t-from-equality-movement/

Trans people have now taken Transvestities and claimed every cross-dresser as Trans. That way they can inherit a large part of the gay culture and history as their own. They have also gone out to shame and persecute anyone that even attempts to ap the brakes and take a long careful look at how this is all going. The LGB Community is very concerned that youth that have a period of questioning and acceptance MUST be Trans. Read the whole article. Not all is hunky-dory in the LGBT Community.

Just went and checked, the petition has been deplatformed...NOT SHOCKED. Your speech is supported only if you agree with the Elites.

According to the petition, transgender and gender non-binary individuals have harassed or physically threatened women and gays or lesbians who disagree with transgender advocates, labeling such dissenters as hateful or “transphobic.” The petition also invokes the “bathroom issue” that generally dominates debates over transgender nondiscrimination laws, accusing transgender individuals of infringing upon the privacy of women in locker rooms, bathrooms, shelters and other gender-specific facilities.

The petition also accuses the transgender movement of appropriating and attempting to rewrite the history of the gay rights movement by casting people who identified as men or “transvestites” in the early day as transgender individuals. It is particularly critical of the three media outlets named in its petition for advancing the position that transgender individuals are responsible for the birth of the gay rights movement, including specific events like the Stonewall riots. Lastly, the petition accuses the transgender community of attempting to influence parents and health professionals to diagnose children expressing gender dysphoria as transgender at younger and younger ages, even if the majority of such children later no longer identify as transgender.

Edited April 2, 2023 by DKW 86

[I_M4_AU 7,813]

There is a movement on twitter known as LGB without the T.  It is being violently opposed by the radical T group.  The T’s have radicalized the coalition.

[TexasTiger 12,853]

On 3/23/2023 at 7:00 PM, Mims44 said:

@homersapien @DKW 86 @TitanTiger

 

Hopefully this isn't too off topic, but I just watched a segment where they were talking about how this is such a schism in the democratic party.

They didn't cover conservatives at all, but I imagine we all know how they feel.

 

It was telling that it was near a 50/50 split on several of the things brought up. Children making their own decisions, and parents making surgical decisions for kids was a big one.

Sports, crazy enough was also a near split.

 

Anyways, what I wanted to ask was how people think this might affect the democratic party? Sure the parties stance could change, peoples minds in general can change.... but at the moment this is an issue that can split the party base if a candidate goes too hard one way or the other.

When some Democrats act in ways that indicate they prioritize this issue above most or all else, like this legislator:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/nebraskas-legislative-session-is-tangled-up-in-transgender-rights-fight-8f455ea3?mod=djemalertNEWS
 

I think many Democrats or democratic leaning independents will be turned off.

[homersapien 11,371]

On 4/1/2023 at 8:25 PM, aubaseball said:

Super duper rich right here.   Like a professional’s or academic’s “Opinion” is better than anyone else’s.   It’s all an opinion!   

Right. 

Regarding your health, would you equate the opinion of your garbage man with the opinion of your doctor?

Edited April 3, 2023 by homersapien

[icanthearyou 4,462]

24 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Right. 

Regarding your health, would you equate the opinion of your garbage man with the opinion of your doctor?

My garbage man is also a holistic healer (not licensed).  He has gotten me off of dairy, drinking crimp bark tea, and eating tofu.  Never felt better.

I know he is credible because he has his own YouTube channel.

[aubaseball 2,602]

4 hours ago, homersapien said:

Right. 

Regarding your health, would you equate the opinion of your garbage man with the opinion of your 

4 hours ago, homersapien said:

Right. 

Regarding your health, would you equate the opinion of your garbage man with the opinion of your doctor?

Good try.   Nice comparison though 

[PUB78 1,358]

Food for thought.

https://wng.org/opinions/no-room-for-compromise-1681127727?mkt_tok=NzEwLVFSUi0yMDkAAAGLCsUpj4UhRiVC7sFArvAzoJclA55HGzlXqGjEvYlnkPRsXrcVghSr1qQenXNG95mXdiTBviu0WEy1cjOqGAPrv98bVht6gsnS54RYfy72-xGV

[PUB78 1,358]

The push-back continues regarding this madness of transgender sports.

https://wng.org/sift/north-dakota-passes-bills-protecting-female-school-sports-1681311150?mkt_tok=NzEwLVFSUi0yMDkAAAGLGcy5VJOW2y-k7jAh4q0eI9HkQwm6A0o05oEZNE0WsN8LoDvz7h3iOApQxbgApfz-6WxJ7bjV1A0NWW6cO-6WZBYTwc8lvb2k4wsJ2u-FCyPY

[TexasTiger 12,853]

I often find Piers annoying & wrong. But not here. Katie Porter is treading in a space Democrats need to be much more thoughtful & aware:

 

[TexasTiger 12,853]

Here’s an example of how prioritizing an individual’s personal sense of gender identity over biological sex causes real world harm to women when they are at their most traumatized and vulnerable. This is misogyny. And gross hypocrisy. In the name of supposed compassion, male dominated establishments show an utter lack of compassion and concern for over half the population:

”

Japan’s longest-running rape crisis center has been declared ineligible to receive public funding following statements made by the facility’s director which were deemed by government officials to be discriminatory against males who identify as transgender.

Tokyo’s Rape Crisis Center was founded in 1983 by six women, half of whom were survivors of sexual assault. Michiko Orita, one of the founders, first confirmed the punitive measure during a meeting held last year in May organized by women’s rights campaign group Save Women’s Spaces, which was primarily concerned with the potential ramifications should gender identity policies be adopted in the nation.

“There have been various attacks and obstructions against our association [Tokyo Rape Crisis Center] throughout the last year. In one specific example, the director of the Minato City Center for Gender Equality carried out a speech suppression and power harassment attack against us for more than an hour, based on criticism that not referring to ‘transgender women’ as ‘women’ is detrimental to the promotion of gender equality and diversity in the Minato Ward,” Orita said during her 2022 presentation.

https://reduxx.info/japan-rape-crisis-center-denied-funding-after-founder-denounced-as-transphobic/

[TitanTiger 20,481]

Another example:

Seven sorority members are suing the Kappa Kappa Gamma fraternity to challenge the induction of a transgender woman into the local chapter at the University of Wyoming. 

The suit, filed Monday in the U.S. District Court in Cheyenne, claims that allowing the transgender woman — identified by the pseudonym Terry Smith — to be a member violates the Kappa Kappa Gamma bylaws, which state the sorority is a “single-gender” organization.

The women filed the suit anonymously against the Kappa Kappa Gamma Fraternity based in Ohio, President of the Fraternity Council of Kappa Kappa Gamma Fraternity Mary Pat Rooney, the Kappa Kappa Gamma Building Co. and Terry Smith.

The suit seeks to make Smith’s membership void and seeks unspecified damages. 

Kappa Kappa Gamma said in a statement, “We are aware of the litigation filed in this case and intend to address it through the legal process. While we cannot comment in detail on this pending litigation, it contains numerous false allegations.”

The organization added that it “values diversity” and does not discriminate based on gender identity. 

Kappa Kappa Gamma Housing Company, Rooney and Smith did not immediately respond to requests for comment. Lawyers were not listed in online court documents for the defendants.

Smith, 21, was inducted into the Kappa Kappa Gamma chapter at the University of Wyoming in the fall of 2022.  

The lawsuit argues that the sorority followed a 2018 “Guide for Supporting Our LGBTQIA+ Members,” which stated that Kappa Kappa Gamma admits both “women and “individuals who identify as women” in accepting Smith's membership. 

The suit contends that the guide is an “unlawful abandonment of the sorority’s requirement for single-sex membership” and that the organization’s bylaws, standing rules and policies restrict membership to women and do not permit Smith’s membership.

“The Fraternity Council has betrayed the central purpose and mission of Kappa Kappa Gamma, by conflating the experience of being a woman with the experience of men engaging in behavior generally associated with women,” the complaint stated. 

Smith identifies with female pronouns on Twitter. The suit said Smith wears women’s clothing “only occasionally” and has not undergone medical gender transition and identifies as a male on a Washington State Driver’s license, though Smith could have identified on it as female or “X” gender, the lawsuit said. 

The suit claims that national sorority officials pressured the local chapter to violate sorority rules by allowing Smith to enter the sisterhood.

Typically all chapter members must vote on a new member, unless they are excused, and the vote takes place using an electronic voting system on the phone app “Omega Recruit.” But in Smith’s case, not all chapter member voted and the vote took place through Google Poll, the lawsuit said. [Titan note:  this Google Poll voting method forced them to abandon their normal anonymous voting method]

The plaintiffs also claimed Smith's membership application was evaluated using a different standard than other recruits as Smith had a cumulative GPA below the Kappa requirement of at least 2.7 GPA, as under the House Bylaws.

The suit also listed several instances in which Kappa Kappa Gamma members allegedly felt uncomfortable around Smith. 

The suit said that Smith did not live in the sorority house, but would sit there for hours and allegedly stare at the women inside. 

“One sorority member walked down the hall to take a shower wearing only a towel. She felt an unsettling presence, turned, and saw Mr. Smith watching her silently,” the suit said. 

The complaint said that witnesses observed Smith sitting in a chair in the living room of the sorority house on multiple occasions staring at members walking in. 

"Smith has, while watching members enter the sorority house, had an erection visible” through leggings, the complaint said. 

The morning after a sleepover, prior to the Kappa initiation ceremony for new members, Smith’s conduct was described as “inappropriate and threatening,” according to the complaint.

Though Smith did not sleepover, Smith returned to the sorority house the following morning and “stood silently in the corner of the room near the door while other pledges changed from sleeping garments into other clothing,” the lawsuit said.  

Smith allegedly saw a woman not wearing a bra change shirts. After that incident, “other Kappa members informed Ms. Doe VI that while watching her” Smith had “become sexually aroused,” the complaint said, and Smith allegedly “repeatedly asked” Doe VI about her romantic attachments after the encounter. 

The plaintiffs claimed that they reached out to national sorority officials on several occasions either on their own or via attorneys, but “their concerns were dismissed.”

The suit said that only 10 of more than 40 chapter members living in the sorority house have signed new housing contracts to live there next year, which the suit contends is due to a lack of privacy given Smith’s access to it. 

The complaint also noted that Congress created an exception to Title IX, a federal civil rights law that prohibits sex-based discrimination in educational settings that receive federal funding, allowing social sororities and fraternities to keep their organizations single-sex.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/7-sorority-sisters-university-wyoming-sue-kappa-kappa-gamma-challenge-rcna77266

 

Additional details:

The girls allege that Artemis Langford, a 6'2' biological male weighing 260lbs, has had "visible erections through his leggings" and "repeatedly questions the women about what vaginas look like, breast cup size, whether women were considering breast reductions and birth control,'" according to the complaint obtained by the outlet.

...

Langford, who became the sorority's first trans-identified member in 2022, is reportedly attracted to women and does not try to present as anything other than male. "Male" is also listed on his Washington state drivers license, which he has not changed despite having that opportunity, the lawsuit states.

The lawsuit alleges that Langford has had "his hands over his genitals and appeared sexually aroused" in the presence of his sisters, and has also "watched them undress" without them knowing he was in the room.
...

"All of the bathrooms are shared spaces and there are no private changing areas or locks. It's very open and vulnerable," she said.

The women claim that while they are aware that a trans-identified male like Langford needs to be protected and given a safe space of his own, moving into their house is not the solution.

https://thepostmillennial.com/sorority-sisters-file-lawsuit-against-kappa-kappa-gamma-for-allowing-62-trans-identified-male-with-visible-erections-into-their-wyoming-sorority

 

[cbo 7,847]

5 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

Another example:

Seven sorority members are suing the Kappa Kappa Gamma fraternity to challenge the induction of a transgender woman into the local chapter at the University of Wyoming. 

The suit, filed Monday in the U.S. District Court in Cheyenne, claims that allowing the transgender woman — identified by the pseudonym Terry Smith — to be a member violates the Kappa Kappa Gamma bylaws, which state the sorority is a “single-gender” organization.

The women filed the suit anonymously against the Kappa Kappa Gamma Fraternity based in Ohio, President of the Fraternity Council of Kappa Kappa Gamma Fraternity Mary Pat Rooney, the Kappa Kappa Gamma Building Co. and Terry Smith.

The suit seeks to make Smith’s membership void and seeks unspecified damages. 

Kappa Kappa Gamma said in a statement, “We are aware of the litigation filed in this case and intend to address it through the legal process. While we cannot comment in detail on this pending litigation, it contains numerous false allegations.”

The organization added that it “values diversity” and does not discriminate based on gender identity. 

Kappa Kappa Gamma Housing Company, Rooney and Smith did not immediately respond to requests for comment. Lawyers were not listed in online court documents for the defendants.

Smith, 21, was inducted into the Kappa Kappa Gamma chapter at the University of Wyoming in the fall of 2022.  

The lawsuit argues that the sorority followed a 2018 “Guide for Supporting Our LGBTQIA+ Members,” which stated that Kappa Kappa Gamma admits both “women and “individuals who identify as women” in accepting Smith's membership. 

The suit contends that the guide is an “unlawful abandonment of the sorority’s requirement for single-sex membership” and that the organization’s bylaws, standing rules and policies restrict membership to women and do not permit Smith’s membership.

“The Fraternity Council has betrayed the central purpose and mission of Kappa Kappa Gamma, by conflating the experience of being a woman with the experience of men engaging in behavior generally associated with women,” the complaint stated. 

Smith identifies with female pronouns on Twitter. The suit said Smith wears women’s clothing “only occasionally” and has not undergone medical gender transition and identifies as a male on a Washington State Driver’s license, though Smith could have identified on it as female or “X” gender, the lawsuit said. 

The suit claims that national sorority officials pressured the local chapter to violate sorority rules by allowing Smith to enter the sisterhood.

Typically all chapter members must vote on a new member, unless they are excused, and the vote takes place using an electronic voting system on the phone app “Omega Recruit.” But in Smith’s case, not all chapter member voted and the vote took place through Google Poll, the lawsuit said. [Titan note:  this Google Poll voting method forced them to abandon their normal anonymous voting method]

The plaintiffs also claimed Smith's membership application was evaluated using a different standard than other recruits as Smith had a cumulative GPA below the Kappa requirement of at least 2.7 GPA, as under the House Bylaws.

The suit also listed several instances in which Kappa Kappa Gamma members allegedly felt uncomfortable around Smith. 

The suit said that Smith did not live in the sorority house, but would sit there for hours and allegedly stare at the women inside. 

“One sorority member walked down the hall to take a shower wearing only a towel. She felt an unsettling presence, turned, and saw Mr. Smith watching her silently,” the suit said. 

The complaint said that witnesses observed Smith sitting in a chair in the living room of the sorority house on multiple occasions staring at members walking in. 

"Smith has, while watching members enter the sorority house, had an erection visible” through leggings, the complaint said. 

The morning after a sleepover, prior to the Kappa initiation ceremony for new members, Smith’s conduct was described as “inappropriate and threatening,” according to the complaint.

Though Smith did not sleepover, Smith returned to the sorority house the following morning and “stood silently in the corner of the room near the door while other pledges changed from sleeping garments into other clothing,” the lawsuit said.  

Smith allegedly saw a woman not wearing a bra change shirts. After that incident, “other Kappa members informed Ms. Doe VI that while watching her” Smith had “become sexually aroused,” the complaint said, and Smith allegedly “repeatedly asked” Doe VI about her romantic attachments after the encounter. 

The plaintiffs claimed that they reached out to national sorority officials on several occasions either on their own or via attorneys, but “their concerns were dismissed.”

The suit said that only 10 of more than 40 chapter members living in the sorority house have signed new housing contracts to live there next year, which the suit contends is due to a lack of privacy given Smith’s access to it. 

The complaint also noted that Congress created an exception to Title IX, a federal civil rights law that prohibits sex-based discrimination in educational settings that receive federal funding, allowing social sororities and fraternities to keep their organizations single-sex.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/7-sorority-sisters-university-wyoming-sue-kappa-kappa-gamma-challenge-rcna77266

 

Additional details:

The girls allege that Artemis Langford, a 6'2' biological male weighing 260lbs, has had "visible erections through his leggings" and "repeatedly questions the women about what vaginas look like, breast cup size, whether women were considering breast reductions and birth control,'" according to the complaint obtained by the outlet.

...

Langford, who became the sorority's first trans-identified member in 2022, is reportedly attracted to women and does not try to present as anything other than male. "Male" is also listed on his Washington state drivers license, which he has not changed despite having that opportunity, the lawsuit states.

The lawsuit alleges that Langford has had "his hands over his genitals and appeared sexually aroused" in the presence of his sisters, and has also "watched them undress" without them knowing he was in the room.
...

"All of the bathrooms are shared spaces and there are no private changing areas or locks. It's very open and vulnerable," she said.

The women claim that while they are aware that a trans-identified male like Langford needs to be protected and given a safe space of his own, moving into their house is not the solution.

https://thepostmillennial.com/sorority-sisters-file-lawsuit-against-kappa-kappa-gamma-for-allowing-62-trans-identified-male-with-visible-erections-into-their-wyoming-sorority

 

Interesting story about one creepy person. Not sure why they voted her in when her GPA didn't meet requirements. 

I wonder if there has ever been a lesbian in a sorority who made members uncomfortable. I wonder if there has ever been a heterosexual male who behaved inappropriately towards sorority members. We should probably get to the bottom of that too and use it to drive legislation addressing an entire group of diverse people. 

[TexasTiger 12,853]

32 minutes ago, cbo said:

Interesting story about one creepy person. Not sure why they voted her in when her GPA didn't meet requirements. 

I wonder if there has ever been a lesbian in a sorority who made members uncomfortable. I wonder if there has ever been a heterosexual male who behaved inappropriately towards sorority members. We should probably get to the bottom of that too and use it to drive legislation addressing an entire group of diverse people. 

I think you’re missing the point. Legislation generally governs how one is legally recognized. For years there was a process in most jurisdictions that allow someone to change their legal sex designation. It involved extensive medical & psychological assessments. There’s a move in many countries to “remove the gatekeepers” and allow self-id— legally you’re are simply what gender you claim to be. That was the Obama administrations regulatory reading of Title IX which frankly contradicted the plain language and intent of the legislation. That drastic change is what easily facilitates these abuses. Such abuses are what are raising concerns and focus on what has previously been broadly accepted for years. The change in this first came from “the left.” It’s a big issue in the UK, Australia and apparently Japan. In the UK, most feminists alarmed by the ramifications of self-id are life-long progressives. Many are lesbians. Some legal regulations must govern how someone changes their birth certificate. How it’s determined what prisons they go to. The Right always goes to extremes and overplays their hand, but this was a reaction to initial efforts on the left to change existing law & regulations.

[cbo 7,847]

28 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

I think you’re missing the point. Legislation generally governs how one is legally recognized. For years there was a process in most jurisdictions that allow someone to change their legal sex designation. It involved extensive medical & psychological assessments. There’s a move in many countries to “remove the gatekeepers” and allow self-id— legally you’re are simply what gender you claim to be. That was the Obama administrations regulatory reading of Title IX which frankly contradicted the plain language and intent of the legislation. That drastic change is what easily facilitates these abuses. Such abuses are what are raising concerns and focus on what has previously been broadly accepted for years. The change in this first came from “the left.” It’s a big issue in the UK, Australia and apparently Japan. In the UK, most feminists alarmed by the ramifications of self-id are life-long progressives. Many are lesbians. Some legal regulations must govern how someone changes their birth certificate. How it’s determined what prisons they go to. The Right always goes to extremes and overplays their hand, but this was a reaction to initial efforts on the left to change existing law & regulations.

My point is these little one-off stories prove nothing. Yet they are amplified as proof that pro-transgender causes are harming women. Because that's the only argument that can be mustered against "live and let live." 

I'm sure there is an example out there about a transgender male to female who joined a sorority, was a cool and respectable person, and enhanced the lives of the sorority members. I know there are many stories about biological females who are awful people that terrorized other sorority members. 

If you scour the nation for stories about transgenders harming women (which I assure you plenty of people are doing right now) and all you come up with is one case about a sorority in Wyoming, then you are reaching. If you have to repeatedly go to other countries for random examples then ... what are we even doing here?

 

 

[TexasTiger 12,853]

9 minutes ago, cbo said:

My point is these little one-off stories prove nothing. Yet they are amplified as proof that pro-transgender causes are harming women. Because that's the only argument that can be mustered against "live and let live." 

I'm sure there is an example out there about a transgender male to female who joined a sorority, was a cool and respectable person, and enhanced the lives of the sorority members. I know there are many stories about biological females who are awful people that terrorized other sorority members. 

If you scour the nation for stories about transgenders harming women (which I assure you plenty of people are doing right now) and all you come up with is one case about a sorority in Wyoming, then you are reaching. If you have to repeatedly go to other countries for random examples then ... what are we even doing here?

 

 

Well, you didn’t reference my article about the sexual assault shelter losing government funding, but all of these so-called “one-off stories” are illustrations of how policy is applied and the impacts. I suspect there has been a situation where a trans woman was accepted into a sorority with no major backlash, although the members who may have been uncomfortable with it may not have felt comfortable speaking up. The point is, no law will prevent an individual sorority from taking that approach if they all are comfortable with it. The challenge with the law in this case is I suspect that’s the national organization (and perhaps the school) looking at the more recent interpretations of Title IX and thinking they have no choice. Legislation and regulations mattered long before this became a hot button issue. Regulations (interpretations) changed and new issues arose that evoke responses which may includes changing, or in the case of Title IX clarifying what “sex” means.
 

My point is, it’s disingenuous or misinformed to see this issue as solely being that of the “right” changing laws. The left has changed and wishes to further change laws as they think appropriate— which is why this is a political issue by definition.

[cbo 7,847]

11 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Well, you didn’t reference my article about the sexual assault shelter losing government funding

I referenced it when I said we shouldn't have to go to other countries for examples of transgender people harming women, if it is such a prevalent issue. Honestly, I didn't read your post once I saw it happened in Japan. I don't know enough about their culture and laws to even have an informed opinion. 

11 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

suspect there has been a situation where a trans woman was accepted into a sorority with no major backlash, although the members who may have been uncomfortable with it may not have felt comfortable speaking up.

Luckily, young people are much more progressive and accepting of trans people than us, especially young women. I imagine if a trans woman was cool and fun to be around and didn't act like a creepy weirdo then there wouldn't be a problem, especially at liberal colleges. There may be members of sororities who are uncomfortable living with black or gay people, but we all have to learn and grow at some point, right?

12 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

The challenge with the law in this case is I suspect that’s the national organization (and perhaps the school) looking at the more recent interpretations of Title IX and thinking they have no choice.

They had a choice. They literally voted her in when they had an easy out with her GPA. 

12 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

My point is, it’s disingenuous or misinformed to see this issue as solely being that of the “right” changing laws. The left has changed and wishes to further change laws as they think appropriate— which is why this is a political issue by definition.

I agree it has become political. I believe the right is doing far more harm with their legislation than anything I have seen from the left. 

If we're doing anecdotes, here's one I have personally observed. I know more than one trans teenager who has attempted suicide. One of whom is a close loved one. Both were female to male and for both, all the following is true:

They expressed they were "a boy" since they were infants. In their early teen years, they came out to their parents as trans. Their parents were reluctant to accept for a year or two, as most parents would be. Understandable. Parents then let them socially transition, changing their names and pronouns at home and letting them wear boy clothes. Helped for a bit but wasn't enough. They became depressed and made very real attempts to commit suicide. To repeat, both families came very close to losing their child. 

The children then had a couple years of therapy. After that, they went to a doctor who had multiple meetings with the child and parents and reviewed voluminous documentation from therapists. Finally, after careful consideration by all parties, both parents signed consent forms and the child began to receive low level testosterone shots, understanding that the only irreversible effects are a low voice, body hair, and a chance of fertility issues. Again, they felt like they were fighting for their children's lives, and rightfully so. 

After a few months of testosterone treatment, both children transformed into much happier, more productive humans. Just because their voice got a little deeper and they had a little fuzz on their lips. Of course, they still had to deal with constant bullying in schools (to all those who think kids do this as a fun, cool trend - you are mistaken). But overall they were completely new people, who went from hiding in their rooms to actively engaging with family and friends. 

After a year or two of treatment, their home state outlawed the medical care they were receiving. The physician regretfully informed them they would have to drive a couple states away if they wished to continue treatment. Both children were devastated and have since regressed.

They feel like people in their state hate them so much that they are trying to outlaw their existence. The parents, who spent years considering all factors out of the best interest for their child and had finally begun to feel comfortable about their decision, are now hurt for their child and themselves. They are trying to figure out if they can and should move away from their home, family, and friends. And if so, where? Which laws will which states enact next?

These are the real world consequences of shouting about "child mutilation" or even amplifying the sorority article we are discussing. 

I know this is very long, but I hope you and @TitanTiger read it. I hope you will also realize @homersapien, @icanthearyouand I have to wade through clear disinformation and transphobic comments on this board, just to try to have a conversation.  I don't think either of you are like that and I don't dislike either of you at all. Which is why I'm bothering to engage. I just think you are both way off on this topic. 

 

[TexasTiger 12,853]

1 hour ago, cbo said:

I referenced it when I said we shouldn't have to go to other countries for examples of transgender people harming women, if it is such a prevalent issue. Honestly, I didn't read your post once I saw it happened in Japan. I don't know enough about their culture and laws to even have an informed opinion. 

Luckily, young people are much more progressive and accepting of trans people than us, especially young women. I imagine if a trans woman was cool and fun to be around and didn't act like a creepy weirdo then there wouldn't be a problem, especially at liberal colleges. There may be members of sororities who are uncomfortable living with black or gay people, but we all have to learn and grow at some point, right?

They had a choice. They literally voted her in when they had an easy out with her GPA. 

I agree it has become political. I believe the right is doing far more harm with their legislation than anything I have seen from the left. 

If we're doing anecdotes, here's one I have personally observed. I know more than one trans teenager who has attempted suicide. One of whom is a close loved one. Both were female to male and for both, all the following is true:

They expressed they were "a boy" since they were infants. In their early teen years, they came out to their parents as trans. Their parents were reluctant to accept for a year or two, as most parents would be. Understandable. Parents then let them socially transition, changing their names and pronouns at home and letting them wear boy clothes. Helped for a bit but wasn't enough. They became depressed and made very real attempts to commit suicide. To repeat, both families came very close to losing their child. 

The children then had a couple years of therapy. After that, they went to a doctor who had multiple meetings with the child and parents and reviewed voluminous documentation from therapists. Finally, after careful consideration by all parties, both parents signed consent forms and the child began to receive low level testosterone shots, understanding that the only irreversible effects are a low voice, body hair, and a chance of fertility issues. Again, they felt like they were fighting for their children's lives, and rightfully so. 

After a few months of testosterone treatment, both children transformed into much happier, more productive humans. Just because their voice got a little deeper and they had a little fuzz on their lips. Of course, they still had to deal with constant bullying in schools (to all those who think kids do this as a fun, cool trend - you are mistaken). But overall they were completely new people, who went from hiding in their rooms to actively engaging with family and friends. 

After a year or two of treatment, their home state outlawed the medical care they were receiving. The physician regretfully informed them they would have to drive a couple states away if they wished to continue treatment. Both children were devastated and have since regressed.

They feel like people in their state hate them so much that they are trying to outlaw their existence. The parents, who spent years considering all factors out of the best interest for their child and had finally begun to feel comfortable about their decision, are now hurt for their child and themselves. They are trying to figure out if they can and should move away from their home, family, and friends. And if so, where? Which laws will which states enact next?

These are the real world consequences of shouting about "child mutilation" or even amplifying the sorority article we are discussing. 

I know this is very long, but I hope you and @TitanTiger read it. I hope you will also realize @homersapien, @icanthearyouand I have to wade through clear disinformation and transphobic comments on this board, just to try to have a conversation.  I don't think either of you are like that and I don't dislike either of you at all. Which is why I'm bothering to engage. I just think you are both way off on this topic. 

 

Thanks for sharing. The challenge of dealing with adolescent gender dysphoria is complex and difficult.
 

The topic of this particular thread is the distinction between gender and biological sex and why that matters which is why I circled back to it to post about the rape shelter. There are politicians around the world, including here, that want to replace the concept of sex with gender. There are many reasons I find that problematic. What happened in Japan has happened in Canada & the UK that I know of, and I suspect I’m some states. It will be the norm if sex is replaced with gender as many wish to do. You haven’t stated your view on that issue that I recall. If you have elsewhere, my apologies.

That said, I’ve never had a problem with folks who choose to present themselves in contravention with traditional gender roles and appearance whether it be to “gender bend”  in protest to such limiting stereotypical constructs or because they identify with those gender constructs. I’ve always been live and let live in that regard. If a biological man (or vice versa) wants to dress as a woman, adopt a traditionally female name and use female pronouns, I think they have the right to do so free from hate and discrimination. If they decide to have sexual reassignment surgery, I have no problem with them using female restrooms, but also realize I don’t get to speak for women. I don’t think most biological men should be allowed to compete against biological women in competitions, although there may be some exceptions that don’t pose undue risk or unfairness.
 

There are a number of reasons the distinction between sex and gender matter and there is an undeniable political  movement to erase the legal difference. That matters. I respect the right of biological women to live as closely to traditional male stereotypes as they choose— or to pick aspects of those stereotypes a la carte. I also respect the right of women to insist on boundaries for the spaces they inhabit. The whole of human experience tells us they have a right to be concerned about their well being in relation to biological males.

[cbo 7,847]

30 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Thanks for sharing. The challenge of dealing with adolescent gender dysphoria is complex and difficult.
 

The topic of this particular thread is the distinction between gender and biological sex and why that matters which is why I circled back to it to post about the rape shelter. There are politicians around the world, including here, that want to replace the concept of sex with gender. There are many reasons I find that problematic. What happened in Japan has happened in Canada & the UK that I know of, and I suspect I’m some states. It will be the norm if sex is replaced with gender as many wish to do. You haven’t stated your view on that issue that I recall. If you have elsewhere, my apologies.

That said, I’ve never had a problem with folks who choose to present themselves in contravention with traditional gender roles and appearance whether it be to “gender bend”  in protest to such limiting stereotypical constructs or because they identify with those gender constructs. I’ve always been live and let live in that regard. If a biological man (or vice versa) wants to dress as a woman, adopt a traditionally female name and use female pronouns, I think they have the right to do so free from hate and discrimination. If they decide to have sexual reassignment surgery, I have no problem with them using female restrooms, but also realize I don’t get to speak for women. I don’t think most biological men should be allowed to compete against biological women in competitions, although there may be some exceptions that don’t pose undue risk or unfairness.
 

There are a number of reasons the distinction between sex and gender matter and there is an undeniable political  movement to erase the legal difference. That matters. I respect the right of biological women to live as closely to traditional male stereotypes as they choose— or to pick aspects of those stereotypes a la carte. I also respect the right of women to insist on boundaries for the spaces they inhabit. The whole of human experience tells us they have a right to be concerned about their well being in relation to biological males.

I'm a little surprised how quickly you redirected the conversation to the topic of this thread (on its seventh page), as if all conversations don't evolve and expand or my points are less valid because of a thread title. 

I tried to give an honest explanation why this matters to me. I'm far more interested in the current, real life impact on actual people than a theoretical debate.

But I went ahead and watched the video on your OP. I agree that sex and gender are different. I don't agree sex is black and white. In your OP you said, "the reality of chromosomes don’t change." 

Decades ago, biologists and clinical geneticists determined that chromosomes do not always align with the expected genitalia.

Haven't you heard of intersex people? They used to be called hermaphrodites? People who, at the time of birth, could not be determined by physicians to be either male or female. Historically, physicians would often just ... guess. 

Cleveland Clinic estimates that 1 out of 100 Americans is intersex. Which includes people with chromosomes such as XXY. Or having only one chromosome. Or having some cells that are XX and some cells that are XY. Yet I have never heard of a physician telling parents that at birth. Think any of them might end up as transgender?

Here are some links:

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/16324-intersex

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1/

 

[TexasTiger 12,853]

22 minutes ago, cbo said:

I'm a little surprised how quickly you redirected the conversation to the topic of this thread (on its seventh page), as if all conversations don't evolve and expand or my points are less valid because of a thread title. 

I tried to give an honest explanation why this matters to me. I'm far more interested in the current, real life impact on actual people than a theoretical debate.

But I went ahead and watched the video on your OP. I agree that sex and gender are different. I don't agree sex is black and white. In your OP you said, "the reality of chromosomes don’t change." 

Decades ago, biologists and clinical geneticists determined that chromosomes do not always align with the expected genitalia.

Haven't you heard of intersex people? They used to be called hermaphrodites? People who, at the time of birth, could not be determined by physicians to be either male or female. Historically, physicians would often just ... guess. 

Cleveland Clinic estimates that 1 out of 100 Americans is intersex. Which includes people with chromosomes such as XXY. Or having only one chromosome. Or having some cells that are XX and some cells that are XY. Yet I have never heard of a physician telling parents that at birth. Think any of them might end up as transgender?

Here are some links:

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/16324-intersex

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1/

 

I recognized and thanked you for sharing that information. I changed back to the topic of this thread because I intentionally came to this thread to discuss this topic. I don’t have much more to say at the moment on care for dysphoric teens than I’ve said and conversations were tending to get circular and less pleasant in tone than I wanted to participate in. But I read what you shared and appreciate your perspective.

Yes, I’m aware of intersex. The percentage isn’t really known, I don’t believe, but if you’re intersex your chromosomes don’t change either, do they?— so that’s not inaccurate.

But what percentage of trans women are intersex? Are you suggesting treating them differently from natal males with male chromosomes who decide to present as males? 
 

I will add, BTW, that I don’t object to sharing any single sex space with a trans man or trans woman, for that matter. My primary concern is that I think women have valid concerns that are being dismissed.

[cbo 7,847]

13 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Yes, I’m aware of intersex. The percentage isn’t really known, I don’t believe, but if you’re intersex your chromosomes don’t change either, do they?— so that’s not inaccurate.

 

Is that what you meant by your OP? Is that the point the woman in the video was making?

It seemed very clear to me that you think sex is strictly binary, as determined by chromosomes. And presenting as the opposite sex won't change your biologically determined sex, as determined by your chromosomes. XY for male or XX for female. 

I replied to the specific matter you wanted to discuss by pointing out the other combinations of chromosomes that people have, as supported by one of the country's most esteemed hospitals and a highly respected scientific journal that has been around since 1845 and has had contributing articles from Albert Einstein and Nikolas Tesla. You asked for my opinion on gender vs sex and you got it. 

And now you default to semantics to say that your statement is "not inaccurate" because chromosomes don't change as people age?

What do you think of the scientific evidence that says XX and XY chromosomes are too simplistic to determine sex?

[TexasTiger 12,853]

1 minute ago, cbo said:

Is that what you meant by your OP? Is that the point the woman in the video was making?

It seemed very clear to me that you think sex is strictly binary, as determined by chromosomes. And presenting as the opposite sex won't change your biologically determined sex, as determined by your chromosomes. XY for male or XX for female. 

I replied to the specific matter you wanted to discuss by pointing out the other combinations of chromosomes that people have, as supported by one of the country's most esteemed hospitals and a highly respected scientific journal that has been around since 1845 and has had contributing articles from Albert Einstein and Nikolas Tesla. You asked for my opinion on gender vs sex and you got it. 

And now you default to semantics to say that your statement is "not inaccurate" because chromosomes don't change as people age?

What do you think of the scientific evidence that says XX and XY chromosomes are too simplistic to determine sex?

I think XX & XY chromosomes determine sex for the vast majority of people. There are exceptions but those exceptions don’t define the rule. There are almost always exceptions to a rule. I’ve seen the “what about intersex” argument posed to somehow support a much broader range of things. I’ve heard many of the same people simultaneously deploy an array of contradictory statements to support the concept of folks who are drawn to culturally defined gender stereotypes that have no apparent connection to chromosomes. I’ve heard many of those advocates promote hormones and surgery and then say gender is a construct and is fluid. The bottom line on my point is regardless of possible chromosomal anomalies, if a person is 6’2” 260lbs with a penis, they don’t need to be playing rugby with women or sharing their locker room.

[cbo 7,847]

2 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

I think XX & XY chromosomes determine sex for the vast majority of people. There are exceptions but those exceptions don’t define the rule. There are almost always exceptions to a rule.

Of course. I agree. But let's not deny their very existence just to make a point against transgender people. 

4 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

I’ve seen the “what about intersex” argument posed to somehow support a much broader range of things. I’ve heard many of the same people simultaneously deploy an array of contradictory statements to support the concept of folks who are drawn to culturally defined gender stereotypes that have no apparent connection to chromosomes. I’ve heard many of those advocates promote hormones and surgery and then say gender is a construct and is fluid.

If you've seen the "what about intersex" argument before and gave it any thought, I don't know why you said what you did in the OP. The rest of this is vague and presumably doesn't apply to me (?) so I'm not sure how to respond. Other than people make very bad arguments on both sides and I wouldn't let that shape my views. 

4 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

The bottom line on my point is regardless of possible chromosomal anomalies, if a person is 6’2” 260lbs with a penis, they don’t need to be playing rugby with women or sharing their locker room.

Once again, we agree. You have a valid point that is getting muddied with fallacies and irrelevant anecdotes. 

Thanks for listening, at least. I still don't dislike you, even if I might have moved an inch closer tonight haha. Have a good night.