Israel vs Hamas

[GoAU 1,600]

Was just wondering if we at least have a consensus on the board that Israel should, came and will go full apeshit on Hamas?   The place will be a parking lot inside of 10 days.   

[TexasTiger 12,892]

Just now, GoAU said:

Was just wondering if we at least have a consensus on the board that Israel should, came and will go full apeshit on Hamas?   The place will be a parking lot inside of 10 days.   

I think they need to have the goal to eliminate Hamas. The question is what is the most longterm effective way to do that? If it were me planning it, I’d resist the visceral urge to carpet bomb indiscriminately and try to be more surgical. Most of the world is with them if they handle it well.

[GoAU 1,600]

Don’t disagree, but the problem with them is that Hamas hides in schools, hospitals and mosques.  And the vast majority of time the women and elderly are perfectly OK with being human shields for them.  

[TexasTiger 12,892]

3 minutes ago, GoAU said:

Don’t disagree, but the problem with them is that Hamas hides in schools, hospitals and mosques.  And the vast majority of time the women and elderly are perfectly OK with being human shields for them.  

 Collateral damage is unfortunately unavoidable. When it happens, I’d want to be able to show it was unavoidable and my rhetoric would be more measured than I’ve seen thus far. I would want to be seen as focused and resolute, but soberly methodical.

[GoAU 1,600]

Apparently Israel now warned civilians to evacuate Gaza City and to move south of the river.   Apparently Hamas is not allowing the people to leave - don’t want to lose their human shields.   Absolute cowards - attacking Israeli civilians in cold blood, hiding behind their own women and children.   It’s no surprise the Hamas fighters cover their faces…..

[CoffeeTiger 5,108]

There's nowhere for the million people to evacuate to or go.  Hopefully Israel doesn't use their evacuation order as an excuse to start indiscriminately killing civilians. 

As war often is, this is a situation where nobody is going to 'win'.

[AUApostle 7,651]

50 minutes ago, CoffeeTiger said:

There's nowhere for the million people to evacuate to or go.  Hopefully Israel doesn't use their evacuation order as an excuse to start indiscriminately killing civilians. 

As war often is, this is a situation where nobody is going to 'win'.

The winners are defense contractors, the politicians getting kickbacks, and those pulling the strings of hamas from their mansions in Qatar.

[TitanTiger 20,482]

Hamas doesn't care about the Palestinians.  They like to make a show of caring so they can continue to use Gaza as a staging ground for their attacks on Israel.  They show how little they care by doing things like setting up military headquarters, missile batteries and the like in and underneath hospitals, schools, mosques, playgrounds and so on.  They do it by taking pipes Israel gives to Gaza for water lines and such and turning them into the bodies of missiles.  They do it by not allowing Palestinian civilians to leave when Israel responds to one of their terrorist attacks.  And they do it by taking a one time electoral win 15 years ago and turning into permanent rule over the area.

Israel's hands are not completely clean.  Average Palestinians have a right to be angry with Israel over the years.  And don't even get me started on the end times obsession too many evangelicals have by equating the modern nation state of Israel with the ancient Israel of the Old Testament.  But "both have done a lot of bad things" is not the same as "both are equally guilty."  That's a false equivalence.  I believe the truth of the matter is, without Hamas, Palestine would have its own state and self governance by now and live in peace with Israel.  Maybe I'm wrong but that's the vibe I get.  Israel basically has all the power in this relationship and overall shows remarkable restraint.  If Hamas had the same power advantage, they'd do exactly what they did last weekend except on a mass scale.  They're barbaric.  And they need to be eradicated completely.

[DKW 86 7,425]

1 hour ago, CoffeeTiger said:

There's nowhere for the million people to evacuate to or go.  Hopefully Israel doesn't use their evacuation order as an excuse to start indiscriminately killing civilians. 

As war often is, this is a situation where nobody is going to 'win'.

Iran is celebrating the Palestinian Victory this weekend. 

[DKW 86 7,425]

31 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Hamas doesn't care about the Palestinians.  They like to make a show of caring so they can continue to use Gaza as a staging ground for their attacks on Israel.  They show how little they care by doing things like setting up military headquarters, missile batteries and the like in and underneath hospitals, schools, mosques, playgrounds and so on.  They do it by taking pipes Israel gives to Gaza for water lines and such and turning them into the bodies of missiles.  They do it by not allowing Palestinian civilians to leave when Israel responds to one of their terrorist attacks.  And they do it by taking a one time electoral win 15 years ago and turning into permanent rule over the area.

Israel's hands are not completely clean.  Average Palestinians have a right to be angry with Israel over the years.  And don't even get me started on the end times obsession too many evangelicals have by equating the modern nation state of Israel with the ancient Israel of the Old Testament.  But "both have done a lot of bad things" is not the same as "both are equally guilty."  That's a false equivalence.  I believe the truth of the matter is, without Hamas, Palestine would have its own state and self governance by now and live in peace with Israel.  Maybe I'm wrong but that's the vibe I get.  Israel basically has all the power in this relationship and overall shows remarkable restraint.  If Hamas had the same power advantage, they'd do exactly what they did last weekend except on a mass scale.  They're barbaric.  And they need to be eradicated completely.

Eradicate them completely how? By killing the civilians that are willingly giving them cover. Israel is at the “Black Hawk down start shooting the civilians” moment. It’s either go that way or look weak to an enemy that only wants your death. The election of Hamas is at some level the Death Warrant for Gaza. There is no dealing with Hamas. There is no sanity there. There is only more of the hundreds years of war. 

[TitanTiger 20,482]

10 minutes ago, DKW 86 said:

Eradicate them completely how? By killing the civilians that are willingly giving them cover. Israel is at the “Black Hawk down start shooting the civilians” moment. It’s either go that way or look weak to an enemy that only wants your death. The election of Hamas is at some level the Death Warrant for Gaza. There is no dealing with Hamas. There is no sanity there. There is only more of the hundreds years of war. 

I think you do your best to target Hamas with the knowledge that because of their downright demonic tactics of using Palestinians as human shields, civilians deaths are inevitable.  And you use special forces/Mossad to track down and assassinate as many as you can up close and personal.

There's no such thing as a neat and tidy answer here.

[auburnatl1 4,929]

Israel needs to be very very careful. If they go too (“apesh!t”) far, global public opinion will change quickly. Given the horror they just endured and the  understandable instinct for retribution  - they’re in a horrible situation. 
 

[DKW 86 7,425]

1 hour ago, TitanTiger said:

I think you do your best to target Hamas with the knowledge that because of their downright demonic tactics of using Palestinians as human shields, civilians deaths are inevitable.  And you use special forces/Mossad to track down and assassinate as many as you can up close and personal.

There's no such thing as a neat and tidy answer here.

There is no neat and tidy but wait until after the operation there will be a 100 entities  pointing out that Israel should be doing it better, no matter how it comes out. 

[TitanTiger 20,482]

1 minute ago, DKW 86 said:

There is no neat and tidy but wait until after the operation there will be a 100 entities  pointing out that Israel should be doing it better, no matter how it comes out. 

Of course they will.  We've already had all sorts of left wing groups - in the aftermath of Hamas's brutal attacks - blame Israel.  If they feel that's appropriate, then Israel actually striking back will cause an absolute meltdown.

[CoffeeTiger 5,108]

An interesting viewpoint I've seen is that Hamas might have picked this time to launch an attack out of desperation and fear that Israel was normalizing relations and diplomatic ties with other Arab states like Egypt, UAE, and Saudi Arabia, and that Hamas may be hoping that Israel causes enough civilian casualties in Gaza that it will cause the other Arab nations to back off their newly forming relations with Israel and take a more diplomatically hostile stance. That would leave Israel in a weaker, more vulnerable state even if they do massive damage to Hamas' network in Gaza. 

 

The very top leadership of Hamas are likely hiding in other countries and are out of reach of Israel. They probably believe they can rebuild and recover any damage Israel ultimately does. 

 

I think it is important and in Israel's best interest to preserve civilian lives at every opportunity and to at least give an appearance of trying to act within UN guidance and laws.  An intense, deadly revenge war may be what some in Hamas are expecting and wanting Israel to wage. 

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by CoffeeTiger

[auburnatl1 4,929]

2 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

I think you do your best to target Hamas with the knowledge that because of their downright demonic tactics of using Palestinians as human shields, civilians deaths are inevitable.  And you use special forces/Mossad to track down and assassinate as many as you can up close and personal.

There's no such thing as a neat and tidy answer here.

Do nothing sends a weak message. Go too far and you become the villain and create more terrorists.  Ultimately, going total scorched  earth may feel justified - but this isn’t a bully problem, it’s a crazy problem. Treat those the same way and you just fertilize 10X more crazy.

 

[homersapien 11,377]

The most humane - and thus politically acceptable - way for Israel to prosecute this war is with troops occupying every square inch of Gaza.

It will be very costly in both Israeli and collateral casualties, but it's the only way Israel can preserve their moral authority IMO. 

Edited October 13, 2023 by homersapien

[homersapien 11,377]

I thought this was interesting:

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/13/progressive-lawmakers-letter-biden-israel-00121463

‘We are deeply concerned’ – Progressive lawmakers make plea to Biden ahead of Israel’s Gaza campaign

A letter from dozens of members lays out five specific requests of the president over the war in Israel.

Top progressive lawmakers are urging President Joe Biden to lean more heavily on Israel as it launches what seems likely to be an aggressive, bloody and lengthy campaign in Gaza.

The leader of the Congressional Progressive Caucus along with dozens more lawmakers wrote the president and Secretary of State Antony Blinken a letter on Friday asking them to push Israel to follow international law and for the United States to help establish a humanitarian corridor as the war in the Middle East escalates. Their demands come as Israel has ordered more than 1 million Palestinians in northern Gaza to move south, something that the United Nations said is not feasible.

“We are deeply concerned about the order to evacuate over a million civilians out of northern Gaza and the devastating humanitarian consequences that would ensue,” wrote the House members. “As both the European Union High Representative for Foreign Affairs and the United Nations Commission on Human Rights said, imposing a complete siege on Gaza and depriving 2.3 million Palestinian civilians who have nowhere else to go — half of whom are children — of food, water, and electricity, would be a violation of international humanitarian law.”

The lawmakers also condemn the Hamas’ attack and offer their agreement with Biden that Israel has the right to defend itself. But, they said, that response must be cognizant of Palestinian civilians in Gaza “who themselves are victims of Hamas.”

In order to prevent hate crimes against Jewish and Muslim Americans, the lawmakers urged Biden to communicate “to the American people that Hamas is not the Palestinian people and the Palestinian people are not Hamas.”

Biden has forcefully displayed his support for Israel in the wake of Hamas’ attack, saying in a speech this week that it was “pure, unadulterated evil” and the U.S. “has Israel’s back.” He also said that he has stressed to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that the country has to “operate by the rules of war.”

On Friday, John Kirby, the coordinator for strategic communications at the National Security Council, was asked about the impending Israel campaign in Gaza.

“We understand what they’re trying to do,” he told CNN. “They’re trying to move civilians out of harm’s way and giving them fair warning. Now, it’s a tall order, it’s a million people and it’s a very urban, dense environment.”

A House Democratic aide said the letter was led by Jayapal and Reps. Mark Pocan (D-Wis.), Jan Schakowsky (D-Ill.), Jim McGovern (D-Mass.), and includes roughly 40 additional co-sponsors.

The letter marks the most public effort by progressives in Congress to shape the administration’s policy to the region in the wake of Hamas’ attack in Israel, which left more than 1,000 dead and hundreds taken hostage. And it underscores the rapidly shifting nature of the war — and the delicate domestic politics behind America’s response to it.

In the letter, which was first obtained by POLITICO, CPC Chair Rep. Pramila Jayapal and others make five primary requests of the president.

The lawmakers said Biden should help reestablish the delivery of food, water and electricity to Gaza, discourage hate crimes against both Jews and Muslims in the U.S., and guarantee any supplemental funding requests made of Congress include humanitarian aid for Palestinians and Israelis. In addition, they ask Biden to make the case that Israel follows international law and instruct the U.S. to work with partners in the region to set up a humanitarian corridor allowing Palestinian civilians to leave Gaza.

The lawmakers also condemn the Hamas’ attack and offer their agreement with Biden that Israel has the right to defend itself. But, they said, that response must be cognizant of Palestinian civilians in Gaza “who themselves are victims of Hamas.”

In order to prevent hate crimes against Jewish and Muslim Americans, the lawmakers urged Biden to communicate “to the American people that Hamas is not the Palestinian people and the Palestinian people are not Hamas.”

Biden has forcefully displayed his support for Israel in the wake of Hamas’ attack, saying in a speech this week that it was “pure, unadulterated evil” and the U.S. “has Israel’s back.” He also said that he has stressed to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that the country has to “operate by the rules of war.”

On Friday, John Kirby, the coordinator for strategic communications at the National Security Council, was asked about the impending Israel campaign in Gaza.

“We understand what they’re trying to do,” he told CNN. “They’re trying to move civilians out of harm’s way and giving them fair warning. Now, it’s a tall order, it’s a million people and it’s a very urban, dense environment.”

A House Democratic aide said the letter was led by Jayapal and Reps. Mark Pocan (D-Wis.), Jan Schakowsky (D-Ill.), Jim McGovern (D-Mass.), and includes roughly 40 additional co-sponsors.

Edited October 13, 2023 by homersapien

[auburnatl1 4,929]

4 minutes ago, homersapien said:

I thought this was interesting:

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/13/progressive-lawmakers-letter-biden-israel-00121463

‘We are deeply concerned’ – Progressive lawmakers make plea to Biden ahead of Israel’s Gaza campaign

A letter from dozens of members lays out five specific requests of the president over the war in Israel.

Top progressive lawmakers are urging President Joe Biden to lean more heavily on Israel as it launches what seems likely to be an aggressive, bloody and lengthy campaign in Gaza.

The leader of the Congressional Progressive Caucus along with dozens more lawmakers wrote the president and Secretary of State Antony Blinken a letter on Friday asking them to push Israel to follow international law and for the United States to help establish a humanitarian corridor as the war in the Middle East escalates. Their demands come as Israel has ordered more than 1 million Palestinians in northern Gaza to move south, something that the United Nations said is not feasible.

“We are deeply concerned about the order to evacuate over a million civilians out of northern Gaza and the devastating humanitarian consequences that would ensue,” wrote the House members. “As both the European Union High Representative for Foreign Affairs and the United Nations Commission on Human Rights said, imposing a complete siege on Gaza and depriving 2.3 million Palestinian civilians who have nowhere else to go — half of whom are children — of food, water, and electricity, would be a violation of international humanitarian law.”

The lawmakers also condemn the Hamas’ attack and offer their agreement with Biden that Israel has the right to defend itself. But, they said, that response must be cognizant of Palestinian civilians in Gaza “who themselves are victims of Hamas.”

In order to prevent hate crimes against Jewish and Muslim Americans, the lawmakers urged Biden to communicate “to the American people that Hamas is not the Palestinian people and the Palestinian people are not Hamas.”

Biden has forcefully displayed his support for Israel in the wake of Hamas’ attack, saying in a speech this week that it was “pure, unadulterated evil” and the U.S. “has Israel’s back.” He also said that he has stressed to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that the country has to “operate by the rules of war.”

On Friday, John Kirby, the coordinator for strategic communications at the National Security Council, was asked about the impending Israel campaign in Gaza.

“We understand what they’re trying to do,” he told CNN. “They’re trying to move civilians out of harm’s way and giving them fair warning. Now, it’s a tall order, it’s a million people and it’s a very urban, dense environment.”

A House Democratic aide said the letter was led by Jayapal and Reps. Mark Pocan (D-Wis.), Jan Schakowsky (D-Ill.), Jim McGovern (D-Mass.), and includes roughly 40 additional co-sponsors.

The letter marks the most public effort by progressives in Congress to shape the administration’s policy to the region in the wake of Hamas’ attack in Israel, which left more than 1,000 dead and hundreds taken hostage. And it underscores the rapidly shifting nature of the war — and the delicate domestic politics behind America’s response to it.

In the letter, which was first obtained by POLITICO, CPC Chair Rep. Pramila Jayapal and others make five primary requests of the president.

The lawmakers said Biden should help reestablish the delivery of food, water and electricity to Gaza, discourage hate crimes against both Jews and Muslims in the U.S., and guarantee any supplemental funding requests made of Congress include humanitarian aid for Palestinians and Israelis. In addition, they ask Biden to make the case that Israel follows international law and instruct the U.S. to work with partners in the region to set up a humanitarian corridor allowing Palestinian civilians to leave Gaza.

The lawmakers also condemn the Hamas’ attack and offer their agreement with Biden that Israel has the right to defend itself. But, they said, that response must be cognizant of Palestinian civilians in Gaza “who themselves are victims of Hamas.”

In order to prevent hate crimes against Jewish and Muslim Americans, the lawmakers urged Biden to communicate “to the American people that Hamas is not the Palestinian people and the Palestinian people are not Hamas.”

Biden has forcefully displayed his support for Israel in the wake of Hamas’ attack, saying in a speech this week that it was “pure, unadulterated evil” and the U.S. “has Israel’s back.” He also said that he has stressed to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that the country has to “operate by the rules of war.”

On Friday, John Kirby, the coordinator for strategic communications at the National Security Council, was asked about the impending Israel campaign in Gaza.

“We understand what they’re trying to do,” he told CNN. “They’re trying to move civilians out of harm’s way and giving them fair warning. Now, it’s a tall order, it’s a million people and it’s a very urban, dense environment.”

A House Democratic aide said the letter was led by Jayapal and Reps. Mark Pocan (D-Wis.), Jan Schakowsky (D-Ill.), Jim McGovern (D-Mass.), and includes roughly 40 additional co-sponsors.

This would be better if they had tried bipartisan. There are some blue state moderate republicans that would probably support.  Fair or not, progressives have been branded by some as anti-Israel (just as maga has been branded pro Putin) and imo it isn’t as powerful doing it this way.

 

[homersapien 11,377]

Just now, auburnatl1 said:

This would be better if they had tried bipartisan. There are some blue state moderate republicans that would pIrobably support.  Fair or not, progressives have been branded by some as anti-Israel (just as maga has been branded pro Putin) and imo it isn’t as powerful doing it this way.

 

How do you know they didn't try?

[auburnatl1 4,929]

1 minute ago, homersapien said:

How do you know they didn't try?

I don’t. Pure speculation. Just saying it would have helped it look less partisan. 

[GoAU 1,600]

9 hours ago, CoffeeTiger said:

There's nowhere for the million people to evacuate to or go.  Hopefully Israel doesn't use their evacuation order as an excuse to start indiscriminately killing civilians. 

As war often is, this is a situation where nobody is going to 'win'.

Actually that’s not entirely true. There are some area of Gaza that aren’t purely urban and Israel provided instructions to safe areas to the south.  The “brave fighters” of Hamas (yeah, the same ones that attacked civilians in Israel) are the main impediment preventing civilians from leaving.  

[GoAU 1,600]

Maybe I missed it, and it likely wouldn’t have much of an impact, but I find it curious that Biden hasn’t publicly/ formally demanded the release of the 14+ Americans being held by Hamas….

[TexasTiger 12,892]

9 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

Hamas doesn't care about the Palestinians.  They like to make a show of caring so they can continue to use Gaza as a staging ground for their attacks on Israel.  They show how little they care by doing things like setting up military headquarters, missile batteries and the like in and underneath hospitals, schools, mosques, playgrounds and so on.  They do it by taking pipes Israel gives to Gaza for water lines and such and turning them into the bodies of missiles.  They do it by not allowing Palestinian civilians to leave when Israel responds to one of their terrorist attacks.  And they do it by taking a one time electoral win 15 years ago and turning into permanent rule over the area.

Israel's hands are not completely clean.  Average Palestinians have a right to be angry with Israel over the years.  And don't even get me started on the end times obsession too many evangelicals have by equating the modern nation state of Israel with the ancient Israel of the Old Testament.  But "both have done a lot of bad things" is not the same as "both are equally guilty."  That's a false equivalence.  I believe the truth of the matter is, without Hamas, Palestine would have its own state and self governance by now and live in peace with Israel.  Maybe I'm wrong but that's the vibe I get.  Israel basically has all the power in this relationship and overall shows remarkable restraint.  If Hamas had the same power advantage, they'd do exactly what they did last weekend except on a mass scale.  They're barbaric.  And they need to be eradicated completely.

Given the situation in the West Bank, I’m not sure how independent they would have let a Hamasless Gaza be— they frankly have served a purpose for Bibi— but they clearly won’t ever be truly independent with Hamas.  Hamas is irredeemable.

[TexasTiger 12,892]

34 minutes ago, GoAU said:

Maybe I missed it, and it likely wouldn’t have much of an impact, but I find it curious that Biden hasn’t publicly/ formally demanded the release of the 14+ Americans being held by Hamas….

Or else, what?