The Advantage of Hugh Freeze

[Mondo Cane 13]

On 3/27/2024 at 12:57 AM, cbo said:

 

Because he's a relationship guy? That sounds like the opposite of what works right now. 

 

 

Give us an example of a successful college HC who is not good at building relationships with players.

 

[meh130 1,043]

On 3/26/2024 at 11:50 PM, RunInRed said:

He may not like the whole NIL deal but he plays the game well - from donor schmoozing/fundraising, to being able to win the living room — all while juggling the factors of the new world. It sounds easy but it’s not — and to do it all while ‘fitting into our ‘family’ and blue collar culture is something I feel he’s done pretty well so far.

This. Being a Power 5 CFB coach requires one to be a politician, as well as a coach. This is something Harsin did not understand at all.

[meh130 1,043]

I think the problem with the portal is you either get players who did not live up to their hype out of high school, or players that are just seeking more NIL money. Those seeking the former hope a coaching change will develop and expose the potential, those seeking the latter need to tame the ego.

A coach needs to be able to leverage the portal in both directions. The portal means you can more easily discard of players who are not working out, but if you do, you need to replace them. That said, how many game changers have come out the portal? I think the portal will always be more a depth play.

[cbo 7,853]

6 hours ago, Mondo Cane said:

Give us an example of a successful college HC who is not good at building relationships with players.

 

Of course. I said in this thread that relationships matter.

I was asking what gives Freeze a unique advantage in this current era where relationships matter less, at least when it comes to recruiting. 

Maybe I am missing your point. 

[RunInRed 16,410]

On 3/27/2024 at 6:28 PM, DAG said:

I am willing to bet if things look shaky A-Day, the money will randomly be available . I see we have short memories from our bowl game when 90% of the board and even the coach had questions about QB play in a flip.  

When has anything substantial in terms of player performance ever come out of A Day? It’s a glorified controlled scrimmage and usually not even a good one.

[TexasTiger 12,892]

11 hours ago, cbo said:

Of course. I said in this thread that relationships matter.

I was asking what gives Freeze a unique advantage in this current era where relationships matter less, at least when it comes to recruiting. 

Maybe I am missing your point. 

You inserted the term “unique,” which I never said and is a word I rarely use because it rarely applies.
 

But the distinction I was referencing was that Hugh seems to enjoy personal relationship building (as did Dye, even though he was harder edged and more old school), whereas Saban, for example, has always taken a more transactional, business approach— he offers prospects a business opportunity. Listen to how recruits convey their interactions with the two men— the connection is different. And while a more personal, family relationship doesn’t preclude a player later seeking a “better deal,” if the original relationship was primarily a business opportunity, that’s likely how it will be weighed against other alternatives.

[DAG 33,983]

1 hour ago, RunInRed said:

When has anything substantial in terms of player performance ever come out of A Day? It’s a glorified controlled scrimmage and usually not even a good one.

When has anything substantial come out of a joke of a bowl game? Yet after that game the head coach was already ready to give up on him after supposedly going all in on him. Keep up nester. It is not about A day. It is the cumulative effect of inconsistency about the QB play throughout spring. I just threw A day out there because that would be the only substantial time this spring that the fans can actually get any sort of info into Auburn spring performance (unless you go to pay sites of course).

Edited March 31 by DAG

[DAG 33,983]

The OP has moved the goal post all thread lol.

He states that “But he may be better suited for the current college football climate than many other coaches, including Nick Saban.”

 

Based on what? Since the start of the NIL NS had won two SEC championships and had one national championship appearance. I like freeze , I wanted freeze, but there is nothing we can point to yet from his days of Liberty or at Auburn to show he is better suited for this current way of football than many coaches or Nick Saban. 

 

[TexasTiger 12,892]

58 minutes ago, DAG said:

The OP has moved the goal post all thread lol.

He states that “But he may be better suited for the current college football climate than many other coaches, including Nick Saban.”

 

Based on what? Since the start of the NIL NS had won two SEC championships and had one national championship appearance. I like freeze , I wanted freeze, but there is nothing we can point to yet from his days of Liberty or at Auburn to show he is better suited for this current way of football than many coaches or Nick Saban. 

 

Haven’t moved anything. I’m not sure how much you lack the ability to comprehend or are simply predisposed to contrariness for its own sake (I lean toward, this, however), but in the initial post I link to an article citing Saban essentially throwing in the towel over the current combination of NIL AND the transfer portal. It finished him off. No mas.

So, yeah, the program he built was strong enough in the early days of the NIL to still be dominant, but it’s rapidly evolved and if you read the article it hit a crescendo in his program after the bowl game that appeared to push him over the edge.

So we can point to a rather clear and indisputable point that suggests Hugh may be better suited for the current climate than Saban- he’s still coaching and appears excited about building a program and Nick quit coaching citing that the current climate was incompatible with the approach that brought him success.

[DAG 33,983]

38 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

So we can point to a rather clear and indisputable point that suggests Hugh may be better suited for the current climate than Saban

So you are basing this simply on the fact that NS retired ? Lol. Even though his teams were very successful both on the field and by recruiting metrics? So what has Hugh Freeze shown in his limited time at Auburn and at Liberty since the start of the NIL > Saban? Give me some metrics.

Edited March 31 by DAG

[TexasTiger 12,892]

7 minutes ago, DAG said:

So you are basing this simply on the fact that NS retired ? Lol. Even though his teams were very successful both on the field and by recruiting metrics? So was Hugh Freeze shown in his limited time at Auburn and at Liberty since the start of the NIL > Saban? Give me some metrics.

Okay, maybe it is the comprehension issue. Lol. I didn’t move the goalposts in my argument, but you’re recasting the argument. Here’s what I said:

”But he may be better suited for the current college football climate than many other coaches, including Nick Saban. While Saban thrived for years in the then CFB culture, he’s not well suited for the current one.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/other/nick-saban-calls-out-alabama-players/ar-BB1jri49?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=HCTS&cvid=96b074cfb1c24f8a841255d645c0c213&ei=66

Nick hates the current culture. Freeze may not like it either, but I sense he has more patience for it and a willingness to adapt to it. He’s hungry to prove himself which helps in tolerating the more annoying aspects of the current climate. That said, I think the current system is unsustainable and will ultimately exhaust most coaches.”

Current is now and going forward. I was very clear in what I said, including noting Saban had thrived for years. He built a program in a previous era— the most dominant college football program ever. Being the top dog has numerous advantages, even as things change. The best players want to transfer for money, a chance to win championships and get to the NFL. The most successful programs can pick and choose who they want from the portal. They have boosters willing to fund ongoing success and comparatively fewer holes to fill because their programs are established. Could Nick have continued at Bama and competed for championships? Sure. He had a built a program that could navigate the current climate, although he would not be as dominant. But HE wasn’t suited for it. There’s a certain way HE wants to do things and having to re-recruit current players clearly wasn’t an appealing way to spend the next few years. And it would be much harder for him to start from scratch and build a competitor, which is what Hugh is having to do.

[DAG 33,983]

7 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Okay, maybe it is the comprehension issue. Lol. I didn’t move the goalposts in my argument, but you’re recasting the argument. Here’s what I said:

”

But he may be better suited for the current college football climate than many other coaches, including Nick Saban. While Saban thrived for years in the then CFB culture, he’s not well suited for the current one.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/other/nick-saban-calls-out-alabama-players/ar-BB1jri49?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=HCTS&cvid=96b074cfb1c24f8a841255d645c0c213&ei=66

Nick hates the current culture. Freeze may not like it either, but I sense he has more patience for it and a willingness to adapt to it. He’s hungry to prove himself which helps in tolerating the more annoying aspects of the current climate. That said, I think the current system is unsustainable and will ultimately exhaust most coaches.”

Current is now and going forward. I was very clear in what I said, including noting Saban had thrived for years. He built a program in a previous era— the most dominant college football program ever. Being the top dog has numerous advantages, even as things change. The best players want to transfer for money, a chance to win championships and get to the NFL. The most successful programs can pick and choose who they want from the portal. They have boosters willing to fund ongoing success and comparatively fewer holes to fill because their programs are established. Could Nick have continued at Bama and competed for championships? Sure. He had a built a program that could navigate the current climate, although he would not be as dominant. But HE wasn’t suited for it. There’s a certain way HE wants to do things and having to re-recruit current players clearly wasn’t an appealing way to spend the next few years. And it would be much harder for him to start from scratch and build a competitor, which is what Hugh is having to do.

So you have no metrics to prove this? Just say that then. This silliness that since he retired then current coaches are more suited is ridiculous. If that this the case then Sam Pittman is better suited than Saban. The fact of the matter is even after NIL was established, Alabama led by Saban was still successful in these current college landscape based on recruiting , numbers , supposed NIL backing, etc , etc. I am sure he hates the way things are now and that’s fine. Hugh Freeze is not fond of it either. You say he adapted? Great. NS had to adapt the last three years as well. Dude is in his freaking 70s, his wife health is apparently questionable, he is already the goat HC of college football, he has nothing else to prove. On the other hand Hugh Freeze has a lot to prove and hasn’t done so yet.  

Edited March 31 by DAG

[TexasTiger 12,892]

4 minutes ago, DAG said:

So you have no metrics to prove this? Just say that then. This silliness that since he retired then current coaches are more suited is ridiculous. If that this the case then Sam Pittman is better suited than Saban. The fact of the matter is even after NIL was established, Alabama led by Saban was still successful in these current college landscape based on recruiting , numbers , supposed NIL backing, etc , etc. I am sure he hates the way things are now and that’s fine. Hugh Freeze is not fond of it either. You say he adapted? Great. NS had to adapt the last three years as well. Dude is in his freaking 70s, his wife health is apparently questionable, he is already the goat HC of college football, he has nothing else to prove. On the other hand Hugh Freeze has a lot to prove and hasn’t done so yet.  

“Metrics! Metrics!” Lol. It wasn’t a master’s thesis or the submission of journal article claiming to solve a complex problem or prove a theorem. It was an opinion after the article I linked shared frank insights from Saban. Of course he’s older. He’s also recently said he had no plan to retire. My point was it’s a very challenging environment for coaches to BUILD a program and old school coaches like Saban who have developed programs based on a certain model don’t want to change.

“Saban said. “Our program here was always built on how much value can we create for your future and your personal development, academic success in graduating and developing an NFL career on the field.

“So I’m saying to myself, ‘Maybe this doesn’t work anymore, that the goals and aspirations are just different and that it’s all about how much money can I make as a college player?’ I’m not saying that’s bad. I’m not saying it’s wrong, I’m just saying that’s never been what we were all about, and it’s not why we had success through the years.”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/other/nick-saban-calls-out-alabama-players/ar-BB1jri49?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=HCTS&cvid=96b074cfb1c24f8a841255d645c0c213&ei=66

[DAG 33,983]

1 minute ago, TexasTiger said:

“Metrics! Metrics!” Lol. It wasn’t a master’s thesis or the submission of journal article claiming to solve a complex problem or prove a theorem. It was an opinion after the article I linked shared frank insights from Saban. Of course he’s older. He’s also recently said he had no plan to retire. My point was it’s a very challenging environment for coaches to BUILD a program and old school coaches like Saban who have developed programs based on a certain model don’t want to change.

“Saban said. “Our program here was always built on how much value can we create for your future and your personal development, academic success in graduating and developing an NFL career on the field.

“So I’m saying to myself, ‘Maybe this doesn’t work anymore, that the goals and aspirations are just different and that it’s all about how much money can I make as a college player?’ I’m not saying that’s bad. I’m not saying it’s wrong, I’m just saying that’s never been what we were all about, and it’s not why we had success through the years.”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/other/nick-saban-calls-out-alabama-players/ar-BB1jri49?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=HCTS&cvid=96b074cfb1c24f8a841255d645c0c213&ei=66

And this is exactly how the heck Hugh Freeze feels?! What’s the difference? The only dang difference is NS is retired and Hugh Freeze isn’t. But your original quote said that Hugh Freeze may be more acclimated and better suited to this landscape than NS and others. And I am asking you, what the heck are you basing that on? Because NS hates the way the game is played now? So what? A lot of coaches have echoed the same sentiments. 

[DAG 33,983]

https://www.on3.com/college/auburn-tigers/news/hugh-freeze-reveals-serious-concerns-nil-transfer-portal-transactional-nature-auburn-sec-meetings/ 

what’s the difference? The difference is we have no way at this current juncture of knowing if Hugh Freeze way will work. But despite NS hating the way the college landscape has been played, we at least know he played it successfully ( and yes I have metrics to back that up).

“Because I got into coaching for transformative means and that’s what I witnessed from the coaches that coached me, from my father and the other great coaches that I played for,” Freeze said. “So it makes you think and wonder, man is my way still working? You know, to build culture and team and when really, in a lot of these transactional deals now, there’s really only one side that’s really locked in to the process. And that’s unnerving. And a little concerning.

 

Edited March 31 by DAG

[TexasTiger 12,892]

Just now, DAG said:

And this is exactly how the heck Hugh Freeze feels?! What’s the difference? The only dang difference is NS is retired and Hugh Freeze isn’t. But your original quote said that Hugh Freeze may be more acclimated and better suited to this landscape than NS and others. And I am asking you, what the heck are you basing that on? Because NS hates the way the game is played now? So what? A lot of coaches have echoed the same sentiments. 

As I’ve said repeatedly, it may frustrate most coaches, but some will tolerate it more than others. Saban was very regimented. He had a process. A system he required everyone to buy into. He had less tolerance for deviation. That worked well for a long time. He admitted it wouldn’t work anymore.

And I also said before, I think this is a key difference.

But the distinction I was referencing was that Hugh seems to enjoy personal relationship building (as did Dye, even though he was harder edged and more old school), whereas Saban, for example, has always taken a more transactional, business approach— he offers prospects a business opportunity. Listen to how recruits convey their interactions with the two men— the connection is different. And while a more personal, family relationship doesn’t preclude a player later seeking a “better deal,” if the original relationship was primarily a business opportunity, that’s likely how it will be weighed against other alternatives.
 

If you disagree, fine. It’s an opinion. Lighten up.

[Hank2020 3,202]

3 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

You inserted the term “unique,” which I never said and is a word I rarely use because it rarely applies.
 

But the distinction I was referencing was that Hugh seems to enjoy personal relationship building (as did Dye, even though he was harder edged and more old school), whereas Saban, for example, has always taken a more transactional, business approach— he offers prospects a business opportunity. Listen to how recruits convey their interactions with the two men— the connection is different. And while a more personal, family relationship doesn’t preclude a player later seeking a “better deal,” if the original relationship was primarily a business opportunity, that’s likely how it will be weighed against other alternatives.

Freeze’s penchant (enjoyment) into a very personal relationship with player a d family definitely ties in well with the “family atmosphere” approach that is a part if the AU persona. I think that is what makes Freeze a good fit. Still got to win on the field though.

[TexasTiger 12,892]

7 minutes ago, Hank2020 said:

Freeze’s penchant (enjoyment) into a very personal relationship with player a d family definitely ties in well with the “family atmosphere” approach that is a part if the AU persona. I think that is what makes Freeze a good fit. Still got to win on the field though.

Yep. I have no idea if he will ultimately succeed. I have my own concerns. And some coaches are better suited than he probably is, but I was mostly struck by how much Saban sees his own highly successful model has been impacted by these changes going forward (not in results up until now). Kirby is probably a better blend of system/relationships than Nick. Can Hugh strike that balance? We’ll see.

[keesler 5,924]

Different people believe differently.  But it takes time to build relationships and players these days are impatient, they want instant gratification, they call the shots or they bolt.  It’s become a difficult balancing act for any coach to actually build something, implement his system and pray the players stay long enough to get the desired results on the field.  

[CoffeeTiger 5,108]

10 hours ago, keesler said:

Different people believe differently.  But it takes time to build relationships and players these days are impatient, they want instant gratification, they call the shots or they bolt.  It’s become a difficult balancing act for any coach to actually build something, implement his system and pray the players stay long enough to get the desired results on the field.  

 

I don't know if its fair to say past players were more patient than todays kids when in the past players only had two choices. Either 1. Be patient or 2. Don't play college football. 

Players today have more power, more options, and more leeway in shaping their college football careers than any other generation of players in the history of the game. 

It's a lot easier to be patient when you have no other real options. 

 

[DAG 33,983]

1 hour ago, CoffeeTiger said:

 

I don't know if its fair to say past players were more patient than todays kids when in the past players only had two choices. Either 1. Be patient or 2. Don't play college football. 

Players today have more power, more options, and more leeway in shaping their college football careers than any other generation of players in the history of the game. 

It's a lot easier to be patient when you have no other real options. 

 

Yep, the fact is many coaches had all the power , therefore players were at the whim of the hierarchy. This is no longer the case. Sometimes I wonder if “player relationship” is code for this. 

[Hank2020 3,202]

5 hours ago, DAG said:

Yep, the fact is many coaches had all the power , therefore players were at the whim of the hierarchy. This is no longer the case. Sometimes I wonder if “player relationship” is code for this. 

I think going to have to get schedule that gives some family time for these coaches, otherwise burnout will happen quickly. 

[fishepa 1,904]

I think the whole problem with the NIL thing is the transfer portal being open all the time as well.  They have their cake and they can eat it too.  Even the professional leagues aren't like this.  It will take time to figure it out.  As always decisions are made irrationally and without foresight based on emotion.  And this is what we end up with.

[JerryAU 1,661]

3 hours ago, fishepa said:

I think the whole problem with the NIL thing is the transfer portal being open all the time as well.  They have their cake and they can eat it too.  Even the professional leagues aren't like this.  It will take time to figure it out.  As always decisions are made irrationally and without foresight based on emotion.  And this is what we end up with.

Great post, I agree 100%.

That wide open transfer portal is the devil.  It's got to feel near impossible for coaches to budget & plan his roster when he has no idea which player will bolt if the player doesn't get the PT they want OR if another program offers more $$ and competes for championships. 

Player can reach out to any number of programs to see who's interested in their services.  There's nothing stopping a player from shopping. Auburn recently signed a few hot skill players, but what if our QB position doesn't pan out, what if the WR is slow to acclimate to college speed, can't get the timing down, or doesn't grasp the offensive scheme fast enough?  Do they become disenfranchised and move on, or are they willing to wait their turn and develop within the system to gain experience for the future? 

[TigerOne 1,143]

On 3/31/2024 at 12:20 PM, DAG said:

And this is exactly how the heck Hugh Freeze feels?! What’s the difference? The only dang difference is NS is retired and Hugh Freeze isn’t. But your original quote said that Hugh Freeze may be more acclimated and better suited to this landscape than NS and others. And I am asking you, what the heck are you basing that on? Because NS hates the way the game is played now? So what? A lot of coaches have echoed the same sentiments. 

It’s funny that people think Saban retired. He’s more  involved more than ever. He just doesn’t have to do the outlier bs “official hc have to do”.

they just hired back one of his assistants. Now with doebler they have two head coaches.