At what price victory? Jack Murtha at it again.

[AURaptor 1,123]

Well, victory on the politcal front, that is.

First, Jack Murtha blathers out some nonsensical tripe about brining the boys home, the war is lost. Dems are quickly and aptly dubbed the Defeat & Retreat party. Then Mr Murtha makes an idiotic statement declaring that he'd not join up in today's military if he had it to do all over again. Gee, thanks for the support to the Corps there, Gomer

Now comes the kicker. Mr. Murtha claims that he's talked to all the leaders of the US military, US Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Peter Pace, top leaders in Iraq, and they all say that , in Murtha's words, the war in Iraq is " unwinable ". Only one small problem. They never said that. Mr Murtha is intentionally taking their comments out of context to convey a completely different message than the one they're sending. What WAS said is that the United States military can't win this war alone, meaning ( and this is important ) ... with out help from the Iraqi Gov't, it's people and the growing military and police forces. Well guess what? We HAVE the support of those sectors as well as the other allies in Iraq, and we ARE winning this war. So, what's the deal ? Has the good Representive from Pennyslvania lost his mind ?

Randy 'Duke' Cunningham ( R- CA ) resigned for taking bribes, and rightfully so. This former NAVY Ace and decorted war Vet allowed $ to control his life.

One must ask, what does Jack Murtha hope to gain in throwing his good name and 37 year military career name in the mud?

Link to audio clip

[japantiger 4,051]

Why does this guy get press? I appreciate his personal bravery; but that does not give him any particular authority on fighting a different war 40 years later in a different part of the world under completely different circumstances. He sounds like those guys that always thinks "the Corp was better in my day".....Audie Murphy was a great soldier; but a lousy actor if you follow my meaning.....

The bottom line is the current military is better trained, equipped, educated and more combat capable and ready than it was in Mr. Murtha's day (and mine; and I came along after Mr. Murtha); The current military is all voluntary; the personnel have much longer tenure, get more training, are specialists, higher % that have already performed in combat, etc.......these are facts; plus their combat performance also bears this out......that is, they moved faster and farther in a shorter amount of time than any US military force in it's history and routed an entrenched enemy. This is not disputable.

Why does this cause Mr. Murtha a problem to admit. It doesn't bother me to admit this; it is what I hope happens in each succeeding generation. If the current Corp is not better than the one I served in; that would truly be a tragedy; but that is clearly not the case.

Also, he seems to have other problems with facts. He is outright lying around what the generals on the ground are saying. He needs to be called on this....where is the impartial press pointing this out?

Oh, I forgot, they are busy worrying about wiretapping suspected terrorists calls into the US. I really need them to protect my civil liberties on this one. If Adolph Hitler and the German high command were calling and collaborating with US citizens while they over-ran Europe and murdered 6 million Jews; do you think anyone would have had a problem with this? I don't need the press (or the Dems) protecting the bad guys all the time.....just once come out and support the good guys trying to protect us.......alas as Geoge Washington put it (I will paraphrase); "no man, nation or institution will act counter to his interests"......it is not in the press or the dems interests for the good guys to prevail........

[AURaptor 1,123]

Exactly japantiger, I don't understand it at all. Perhaps if the President was a Dem, and both houses of Congress weren't in control of the GOP, we'd never have heard of Jack Murtha in the first place. I think someone got to him, and urged him to pull this Crazy Ivan stunt, politically. Doesn't the mere fact that he lied about what the commanders are saying about the Iraq war sound the warning bells ? He's clearly bending his story just to fit his party's political paradigm. One would think that a Marine of 37 years would know better.

[Tiger in Spain 0]

A REAL Marine would never turn on his fellow servicemen the way Murtha has done. He and Hanoi John Kerry are scum in this sailors eyes for what they have done to their compatriots. Honor is not in their vocabulary.

[TexasTiger 12,865]

A REAL Marine would never turn on his fellow servicemen the way Murtha has done. He and Hanoi John Kerry are scum in this sailors eyes for what they have done to their compatriots. Honor is not in their vocabulary.

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A real patriot wouldn't question whether this guy was a "real marine." Only worthless scum wholly without honor and decency would.

So this is the level of discourse you want?

Disagree with him on the merits and make your case. That shouldn't be so hard for you, should it?

[Tiger in Spain 0]

Semper fidelis, my liberal friend. Those two words explain it all.

Murtha, Durbin, and Kerry are scum.

[DKW 86 7,423]

Once again Tx you are out flanked in the original post.

Randy 'Duke' Cunningham ( R- CA ) resigned for taking bribes, and rightfully so. This former NAVY Ace and decorted war Vet allowed $ to control his life.

One must ask, what does Jack Murtha hope to gain in throwing his good name and 37 year military career name in the mud?

Once again a Conservative is supporting his true ideals. You are just goosestepping to the Party line.

[TexasTiger 12,865]

Once again Tx you are out flanked in the original post.

Randy 'Duke' Cunningham ( R- CA ) resigned for taking bribes, and rightfully so. This former NAVY Ace and decorted war Vet allowed $ to control his life.

One must ask, what does Jack Murtha hope to gain in throwing his good name and 37 year military career name in the mud?

Once again a Conservative is supporting his true ideals. You are just goosestepping to the Party line.

209926[/snapback]

And once again, you utterly fail to get my point .

[DKW 86 7,423]

Once again Tx you are out flanked in the original post.

Randy 'Duke' Cunningham ( R- CA ) resigned for taking bribes, and rightfully so. This former NAVY Ace and decorted war Vet allowed $ to control his life.

One must ask, what does Jack Murtha hope to gain in throwing his good name and 37 year military career name in the mud?

Once again a Conservative is supporting his true ideals. You are just goosestepping to the Party line.

209926[/snapback]

And once again, you utterly fail to get my point .

209927[/snapback]

Not as much as you fail to get mine.

[TexasTiger 12,865]

Semper fidelis, my liberal friend. Those two words explain it all.

Murtha, Durbin, and Kerry are scum.

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My point, which David has demonstrated himself, once again, of being unable to grasp, is not the particular position Murtha, or anyone else, takes on this issue, but rather that Americans of good will and intentions and loyalty can sincerely disagree.

Murtha's positon is derived from his loyalty to the troops he sees on a regular basis. Still, I suspect that Murtha is man enough, Marine enough, and committed to American ideals enough to give you the benefit of the doubt that your differing perspective is, nonetheless, derived from loyalty to those same troops, although you arrive a different result. It is a shame you appear to be such a small-minded man that doesn't share any of those qualities, since those are some of the key qualities on which democracy relies.

[Tiger in Spain 0]

LOYALTY TO THE TROOPS? Give me a break. Are you kidding me? Good God, at what point in this supposed loyalty will he actually brandish the knife and stick it in a soldiers back? You crack me up, Tex!

Murtha is just another Kerry clone out to make a name for himself. If any of the people I mentioned had the berries to come overseas and meet the troops, I'd tell them the exact same thing to their face. I really don't have to worry about that happening though. They don't have the guts to meet these servicemen they are so loyal to face-to-face. These rats prefer to lob their handgrenades of support from behind the senate walls.

As evil as Hillary is, I have to give her some credit here. At least she was man enough to come overseas and stab us in the back in person. She more of a man than any of these 3 stooges are.

[TexasTiger 12,865]

LOYALTY TO THE TROOPS? Give me a break. Are you kidding me? Good God, at what point in this supposed loyalty will he actually brandish the knife and stick it in a soldiers back? You crack me up, Tex!

Murtha is just another Kerry clone out to make a name for himself. If any of the people I mentioned had the berries to come overseas and meet the troops, I'd tell them the exact same thing to their face. I really don't have to worry about that happening though. They don't have the guts to meet these servicemen they are so loyal to face-to-face. These rats prefer to lob their handgrenades of support from behind the senate walls.

As evil as Hillary is, I have to give her some credit here. At least she was man enough to come overseas and stab us in the back in person. She more of a man than any of these 3 stooges are.

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Murtha has been to Iraq. You know nothing about him. Once again, you prove how little you know about what you pontificate on.

[Captain Liger 0]

LOYALTY TO THE TROOPS? Give me a break. Are you kidding me? Good God, at what point in this supposed loyalty will he actually brandish the knife and stick it in a soldiers back? You crack me up, Tex!

Murtha is just another Kerry clone out to make a name for himself. If any of the people I mentioned had the berries to come overseas and meet the troops, I'd tell them the exact same thing to their face. I really don't have to worry about that happening though. They don't have the guts to meet these servicemen they are so loyal to face-to-face. These rats prefer to lob their handgrenades of support from behind the senate walls.

As evil as Hillary is, I have to give her some credit here. At least she was man enough to come overseas and stab us in the back in person. She more of a man than any of these 3 stooges are.

210182[/snapback]

Murtha has been to Iraq. You know nothing about him. Once again, you prove how little you know about what you pontificate on.

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TT, why don't you just the F up? Your incoherent rambling and attacking of TIS is really starting to piss me off. It's convenient for you to sit here in the comfort of Texas and make idiotic remarks to active duty military who have served overseas protecting people like YOU when they call Murtha for what he really is: a backstabbing piece of sh*t. People like TIS and myself live with this war every single day and I've personally witnessed the sacrifices made by our soldiers and marines in Iraq. I've had their blood on my hands, seen them take their last breaths. How dare you accuse TIS of not being a "real patriot" because he says Murtha isn't a real Marine. TIS IS RIGHT ON THE MONEY. Because we serve today and have to listen to these dumb **** democrats run down everything we do....the very fact that we serve period is all the right we need to question Murtha on his patriotism. YOUR opinion in this matter is irrelevant and unfounded. You know what? You don't even have a right to have an opinion on this matter so just shut the **** up. You my friend...when I go back to Iraq for my second tour this fall...if I die it won't be because I was protecting your America hating ass.

It would serve you good to read a quote from Patton at the bottom of this post and perhaps take it to heart if that is even possible. Are you REALLY from Texas? If so, you definitely aren't from Texas country...let me guess...downtown Austin?

Tiger in Spain, Anchors Aweigh my good friend, Anchors Aweigh.

[Tiger in Spain 0]

My goodness, Captain! That was quite the large can of beatdown you just broke out there. I am very impressed!

[Captain Liger 0]

My goodness, Captain! That was quite the large can of beatdown you just broke out there. I am very impressed!

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Very few things set me off. Talking trash to the military is one of them.

Mess with the bull, get the horn.

[saniflush 0]

I have sat by just reading this string of posts and have not gotten involved. I can do that no longer.

As a Marine that was over there the first time when the problem should have been fully dealt with I cannot believe what I am hearing and seeing from people in the name of patriotism!

Texas Tiger when you have stood your first watch, squeezed off your first round, or gotten on your first plane to go over I'm sure I will be very interested to hear what your opinion is. There was a name for people like Murtha when I was there. They were called stretcher bearers. You know what stretcher bearers are? People who would not stand by their supposed brothers as one and cover their six. They get no respect because they deserve no respect!

[Tiger in Spain 0]

Thank you, saniflush. This whole Patrick Henry crusade the left is on is nothing more than a thinly veiled attempt to shift the baselines of what is considered patriotism. They were somewhat successful in getting the definition of torture changed, and now they are trying to get people to think that undermining the country and her warriors is somehow just as noble (if not more so) and patriotic than standing up and fighting against her enemies.

I have no problem at all with questioning the government. There is a very well defined line, however, between questioning the government and flat out being against the country. What Murtha, Durbin, Kerry, et al have done is cheer for the other side. They can accuse me of questioning their patriotism all they want, and I will agree with them. I am questioning their patriotism and I would question it to their face if they had the backbone to show it to me.

[DKW 86 7,423]

My point, which David has demonstrated himself, once again, of being unable to grasp, is not the particular position Murtha, or anyone else, takes on this issue, but rather that Americans of good will and intentions and loyalty can sincerely disagree.

:lmao:

Tex, My point was that THE ONLY POV ALLOWED by the Dems are....

Regarding Fiscal Policy: <In my best robot voice>...."Just Raise Taxes, Just Raise Taxes, Just Raise Taxes."

Regarding Military Policy: <In my best robot voice>...."We cant win Defeat and Retreat, We cant win. Defeat and Retreat, We cant win. Defeat and Retreat."

The specifics of any instance do not matter. Whether a Dem or a Republican is in the WH, doesnt matter. Whether we are kicking wang, or not doesnt matter. Whether elections are going well, doesnt matter. Whether our soldiers and sailors are negatively affected, DOESNT MATTER. Whether Employment is strong, unemployment is down, and the Economy is rolling, the Stock Market hits a five year high, DOESNT MATTER.

The only allowed response from any Dem is ALWAYS the same during any debate: "Just Raise Taxes" and "We cant win, Defeat and Retreat."

[japantiger 4,051]

Semper Fi....

When a supposed leader of this country (Murtha, Congressman; that makes him a leader whether we like it or not); makes publics statements to our troops like "you can't win"; that is a failure of leadership and does disservice to the 4 million troops in the field world wide; and especially the 150k risking their lives every day in Iraq. This is not legitimate decent, this is irresponsible and failure of leadership.

If he really believes this, tell the President in private, OK, Tell Rumsfeld in private, OK.....but to come out and say this in a public forum is irresponsible and I hope the dolt's that elected this guy recall him in the next election. He is not a leader of this country.

Leadership is sometimes biting your lip and doing what is in the best interest of the chosen direction. I don't always get to do what I want to at work (and certainly did not when i was a JarHead); but I By GOD supporedt the leaders and the team/troops by carrying out my responsibilities; ithout grumbling about it; that is leadership. We have troops in harms way; Murtha should show REAL leadership.

Just for the record, I concur in every word TIS, CL, etc., have said. You support the troops by REALLY supporting the troops and telling them you belive in what they are doing, you believe in their cause and you believe in their ability to win. This may at times be hard for some to do; but true leadership is not supposed to be easy. If you can't do it; you keep you mouth shut in public.

[Captain Liger 0]

Leadership is sometimes biting your lip and doing what is in the best interest of the chosen direction.

210389[/snapback]

Damn straight. PERFECT definition. Choosing the hard right over the easy wrong.

This may at times be hard for some to do; but true leadership is not supposed to be easy.  If you can't do it; you keep you mouth shut in public.

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I'm speechless. I have nothing to add. I hope Murtha is reading this.

Man....all these Marines and Sailors in here. God.....I feel like I'm back with the 11th MEU in Najaf. I'm a Hooah kind of guy but......dang....can I.....I just want to say it.......OORAH. Round of beers for you guys...on me.

Oh, I did some research on Murtha's military career as well. 37 years in the Corps and he only made it to......Colonel. My division commander hits 30 years of service this year and he's a two star general. Only the best (well...) make it into the general officer ranks. Murtha never saw that star on his shoulder...after 37 YEARS. If you're military or have been military, and you understand officer progression, that ought to tell you something.

[TexasTiger 12,865]

TT, why don't you just the F up? Your incoherent rambling and attacking of TIS is really starting to piss me off.

I think it is awful sweet the way you stand up for your man. CL :love: TIS

All this talk about messing with the bull and getting the horns-- I’m sure TIS just has the vapors.

It's convenient for you to sit here in the comfort of Texas and make idiotic remarks to active duty military who have served overseas protecting people like YOU

My post that you responded to was this: “Murtha has been to Iraq.” Simple statement of fact. Yet you get all bowed up like a drunken sailor. Frankly, with your mindset, you would be more at home in a Latin American Junta— you don’t think civilians have the same rights as you. You don’t really believe in freedom. You can’t, because you don’t even understand it. You think people should be free to be just like you. So you are protecting my freedom to do what? “Shut the F up?”

How dare you accuse TIS of not being a "real patriot" because he says Murtha isn't a real Marine.

What’s good for the goose…

Very few things set me off. Talking trash to the military is one of them.

Funny. Here’s the irony. I was actually defending a decorated Marine’s right to express his opinion without being called a “scum” who wasn’t a “real marine,” whether I endorse his position or not.

But if that bothered you, you’ll love this-- you’re not much of a patriot, either. You don’t even believe in freedom. You don’t even believe in the United States of America. It's your second choice. In fact, you would prefer to be a citizen of another country that rejected the Constitution you’re sworn to defend and protect:

I don't necessarily think that creating a confederacy, in 1861, was a bad idea.

But since you can’t have your beloved anti-USA CSA, you instead long for a one-party system:

If Southern born Democrats today would stop holding onto the past when their daddy's voted for FDR and every other Democrat, there would be a one party system again and it would be the Southern Republicans. I mean, we're basically, with a few exceptions, STILL a one party South but there's enough Democrats in office to say that we aren't.

China has one. So does Cuba. The USSR did, too. Maybe you would be happier in a totalitarian state where you can tell people that you disagree with:

You don't even have a right to have an opinion on this matter so just shut the **** up.

In Captain Liger’s one-party-system-totalitarian-utopia, those with differing opinions don’t even have that right, because he doesn’t really believe in rights and freedoms. And in this case, what is my opinion? Simply that this man has a right to his opinion:

A Vietnam combat veteran and a retired Marine Corps colonel with 37 years of service, a rare combination of experience that enables him to understand defense and military operations from every perspective.

He learned about military service from the bottom up, beginning as a raw recruit when he left Washington and Jefferson College in 1952 to join the Marines out of a growing sense of obligation to his country during the Korean War. There he earned the American Spirit Honor Medal, awarded to fewer than one in 10,000 recruits. He rose through the ranks to become a drill instructor at Parris Island and was selected for Officer Candidate School at Quantico, Virginia. He then was assigned to the Second Marine Division, Camp Lejeune, North Carolina. In 1959, Captain Murtha took command of the 34th Special Infantry Company, Marine Corps Reserves, in Johnstown. He remained in the Reserves after his discharge from active duty until he volunteered for Vietnam in 1966-67, receiving the Bronze Star with Combat "V", two Purple Hearts and the Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry. He remained in the Reserves until his retirement. This first-hand knowledge of military and defense issues has made him a trusted adviser to presidents of both parties and one of the most effective advocates for the national defense in Washington. At the request of Presidents and Speakers of the House, he served as chairman of delegations monitoring elections in the Philippines, El Salvador, Panama and Bosnia.

He was awarded the Navy Distinguished Service Medal by the Marine Corps Commandant when he retired from the Marines.

The truth is, you’re not fit to clean his latrine with the disrespect you have shown him.

I have never even endorsed his position, just his right to have it. That’s the difference between us. You talk about freedom, but don’t respect it.

...when I go back to Iraq for my second tour this fall...if I die it won't be because I was protecting your…ass.

We agree on that.

Nonetheless, I’ll keep you in my thoughts and prayers and wish you the best over there. Good luck and Godspeed.

[Tiger in Spain 0]

Tex, I used to consider you a half way decent debater. I disagreed with you way more than I shared your viewpoint, but now all you seem to be capable of is resorting to typical left wing innuendo when you lose the debate.

The only time the left holds a military person up as a martyr is when they speak out against the "mean and evil old republicans". If your hero Murtha had come out and said we were winning in Iraq and W had the country heading in the right direction, he would be treated like any other veteran or military man by you thugs. He would be slandered and considered a war criminal (he was in Vietnam, right? Kerry said Vietnam vets (and now Iraq war vets, too) were war criminals) and his remarks would not garner 2 minutes of air time on the evening news. As a matter of fact, given that most of his time was spent in the Guard, he would be accused of dodging the draft altogether. You guys are too easy. You prop these clowns up when they help promote your asinine ideas, otherwise you don't have a bit of use for veterans. If they throw their medals or undermine their compatriots who are engaged with the enemy on the battlefield, they are always referred to as "decorated veterans" and "true patriots" because they had the fotitude to speak out against the republican president. However, when exposed to be the lying two faced scum they are, it's the real decorated veterans that are branded as nazis and fascists.

Why don't the democrats do us military folk a huge favor and just come right out and say it, "We want you to lose." We already know they mean it, so come on out and be honest and say it loud and proud. Don't keep trying to blow smoke up our 6 by saying they support us. They're not fooling anyone.

[saniflush 0]

Why don't the democrats do us military folk a huge favor and just come right out and say it, "We want you to lose." We already know they mean it, so come on out and be honest and say it loud and proud. Don't keep trying to blow smoke up our 6 by saying they support us. They're not fooling anyone.

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The real sad part of it is I could understand if their thoughts toward the war were due to TRULY not believing we should be there. That's not the case. It is being done in an attempt to slander the Presidency as a whole and the military is one being stepped on in the end.

[TexasTiger 12,865]

Tex, I used to consider you a half way decent debater. I disagreed with you way more than I shared your viewpoint, but now all you seem to be capable of is resorting to typical left wing innuendo when you lose the debate.

The only time the left holds a military person up as a martyr is when they speak out against the "mean and evil old republicans". If your hero Murtha had come out and said we were winning in Iraq and W had the country heading in the right direction, he would be treated like any other veteran or military man by you thugs. He would be slandered and considered a war criminal (he was in Vietnam, right? Kerry said Vietnam vets (and now Iraq war vets, too) were war criminals) and his remarks would not garner 2 minutes of air time on the evening news. As a matter of fact, given that most of his time was spent in the Guard, he would be accused of dodging the draft altogether. You guys are too easy. You prop these clowns up when they help promote your asinine ideas, otherwise you don't have a bit of use for veterans. If they throw their medals or undermine their compatriots who are engaged with the enemy on the battlefield, they are always referred to as "decorated veterans" and "true patriots" because they had the fotitude to speak out against the republican president. However, when exposed to be the lying two faced scum they are, it's the real decorated veterans that are branded as nazis and fascists.

Why don't the democrats do us military folk a huge favor and just come right out and say it, "We want you to lose." We already know they mean it, so come on out and be honest and say it loud and proud. Don't keep trying to blow smoke up our 6 by saying they support us. They're not fooling anyone.

210471[/snapback]

TIS, I've never considered you a half-way decent debater. You seem bright enough to be one, but a good debater is more capable of accurately seeing the other's viewpoint, even when he doesn't agree with it. You paint your opponent in the most ridiculously extreme way possible and don't deal with their actual concrete positions. Nothing you have said in this post is supported by the positions I have taken. You speak in absolutes, but point to no facts that back it up.

Murtha was once a strong supporter of this war. The Dem leadership never slammed him for that, and certainly never slammed his service. Dems have never slammed John Warner's service or John McCain's service, even though both strongly support this war. The worst things said about John McCain have been by Republicans, specifically Bush supporters who in 2000 suggested his years as a POW may have left him unhinged.

I don't like Oliver North. I have never slammed his service.

Many Dems have still not endorsed Murtha's position.

Sen. Hillary Clinton: Rep. John Murtha's Iraq Exit Plan a 'Mistake'

Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton said Monday that an immediate U.S. withdrawal from Iraq would be "a big mistake."

The New York Democrat said she respects Rep. Jack Murtha, D-Pa., the Vietnam veteran and hawkish ex-Marine who last week called for an immediate troop pullout. But she added: "I think that would cause more problems for us in America."

"It will matter to us if Iraq totally collapses into civil war, if it becomes a failed state the way Afghanistan was, where terrorists are free to basically set up camp and launch attacks against us," she said.

The Congress had a vote on early withdrawal right after Murtha stated his position. Remember how that turned out?

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/11/22/85938.shtml

Actual debate doesn't work with guys like you and Liger. Maybe holding up a mirror will.

Your position is a factless fantasy.

[Tigermike 3,027]

TIS, I've never considered you a half-way decent debater.  You seem bright enough to be one, but a good debater is more capable of accurately seeing the other's viewpoint, even when he doesn't agree with it. 

Your position is a factless fantasy.

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Busted by your own words. Here's to you Mr. Left Wing Partisan Political Wonk.

You have never allowed facts or anyone else's opinion to stand in the way of the rancorous rhetoric spewed from the DNC and moveon.org.

You were laughing when you typed that right?