At what price victory? Jack Murtha at it again.

[Tiger in Spain 0]

TIS, I've never considered you a half-way decent debater.  You seem bright enough to be one, but a good debater is more capable of accurately seeing the other's viewpoint, even when he doesn't agree with it.  You paint your opponent in the most ridiculously extreme way possible and don't deal with their actual concrete positions.  Nothing you have said in this post is supported by the positions I have taken.  You speak in absolutes, but point to no facts that back it up.

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Coming from you, this means a lot. Pot, thy color is black.

Murtha was once a strong supporter of this war.  The Dem leadership never slammed him for that, and certainly never slammed his service. 

210478[/snapback]

The democrats never mentioned Murtha because up until he sold us out they had no use for him. Now, he is a martyr of the left. What Murtha needs to reminded of is you don't make your point on the backs of Marines that are fighting and dying on the battlefield and don't make it on the backs of a distinguished military record. I didn't slam his service, I slammed him for selling out the troops.

The democrat party has no affection for warriors who actually fight to win. They prefer the John Kerrys of the military, who return from a war zone and accuse our troops of being Genghis Khan. Or who accuse our soldiers of terrorizing women and children in the darkness of night.

Murtha isn't alone in this. Anyone with eyes can see the puppet strings leading back to the ultra-left faction of the democrat party. They played him like a fool. He is their new war hero of the year....a war hero who shares their anti-American views, at least on the issue of Iraq.

Sen. Hillary Clinton: Rep. John Murtha's Iraq Exit Plan a 'Mistake'

Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton said Monday that an immediate U.S. withdrawal from Iraq would be "a big mistake."

The New York Democrat said she respects Rep. Jack Murtha, D-Pa., the Vietnam veteran and hawkish ex-Marine who last week called for an immediate troop pullout. But she added: "I think that would cause more problems for us in America."

"It will matter to us if Iraq totally collapses into civil war, if it becomes a failed state the way Afghanistan was, where terrorists are free to basically set up camp and launch attacks against us," she said.

The Congress had a vote on early withdrawal right after Murtha stated his position. Remember how that turned out?

I guess this Hillary quote was meant to go somewhere. I prefer this one she made to the troops on Thanksgiving Day 2003. You remember that trip, right? The President made a suprise visit and all the democrats could do is criticize him for going in secretly and for using a "fake turkey". Hillary rides her broom in later that same day and attempts to raise their morale by telling them::

“Americans are wholeheartedly proud of what you are doing, but there are many questions at home about the [bush] administration’s policies… We have to exert all of our efforts militarily, but the outcome is not assured... The Pentagon tried to make do with as few troops as possible, as light a footprint as they could get away with. Now we’re playing catch-up... Unfortunately, I don't think they fully appreciated the conditions we would encounter.”

Thank you, Hillary! Just what our brave men and women in combat wanted to hear!

Actual debate doesn't work with guys like you and Liger.  Maybe holding up a mirror will.

210478[/snapback]

Who resorted to childish namecalling? Fascist was the name from what I recall. Match, set, point!

[japantiger 4,051]

Hillary reminds me of Raymond's mom on "Everybody Loves Raymond". She starts out talking like she's complimenting you; but she's really insulting you......

I do have to give her begrudging credit for the first part of her statement. It would be a huge mistake.

When do we get an analysis that shows the result of appeasing fascists, communists, etc.? These are the same people that said we should let the Soviets build nukes, but we should disarm; the same people that said we should just let those communists have central America, those people really did prefer living uder communist rule, they reallly didn't want freedom, it wasn't worth fighting for,.....the list goes on (Joe Kennedy and Hitler being one of my personal favorites)..... history is on the side of confronting totalitarianism in all its forms; today it is Islamic and they are as hell-bent on moulding the world in their image as Hitler, Stalin, etc., were....

Our men and women in the military understand the risks; they signed up for the risks. They also understand that evil has to be confronted. Appeasement never works; ever. History proves this. Dems should show the same resolve and understanding.

[TexasTiger 12,865]

Who resorted to childish namecalling?

Your first post on this thread that evoked a response from me was this ad hominem attack on a 37 year veteran that you called a dishonorable scum who was not a real Marine.

A REAL Marine would never turn on his fellow servicemen the way Murtha has done. He and Hanoi John Kerry are scum in this sailors eyes for what they have done to their compatriots. Honor is not in their vocabulary.

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I don't really care if you call names. You can call his positon misguided, unwise, stupid, foolish, retarded, naive, etc. But you never bother to even put forward a substantive argument as to what he actually said and why you so strongly disagree. Just a pissy little attack with John Kerry thrown if for good measure. That's all you got.

You can attack the man's views and actions without attacking his service. Saying he is not real Marine does attack his service. If you were a Marine, and someone said you weren't a real Marine, don't you think that would be an attack on your service?

[Tigermike 3,027]

Tex you are smart enough to know what they have been talking about and why. They made a disparaging statement about Murtha. YOU made it personal and made rude and insulting statements about them. You know the difference and you know you are just trying to parse words and change the subject. You also know you are not real good at it. You also know they are right when they said the DNC and the left wing zealots who run the DNC had absolutely no use for Murtha until he got his 15 minutes of fame. You also know Murtha has been used like a $15.00 ho by the left wing zealots who run the DNC.

[TexasTiger 12,865]

Tex you are smart enough to know what they have been talking about and why.  They made a disparaging statement about Murtha.  YOU made it personal and made rude and insulting statements about them.

210735[/snapback]

In politics most things may be fair game. But I don't think there is any excuse for demeaning someone's military service. It is ridiculous to say the guy's not a "real Marine." I feel that very strongly. It is beyond classless and if a decent human being were to slip up and do it, they should have the decency to recognize that and admit it. I am sick of hearing Right Wing zealots impugn people's patriotism simply because they disagree with them. But if that is where you guys are going to insist the battlefield must be, then let's take the gloves off and call each other out on what is patriotic and what is not. Republicans have been playing hardball politics for years and the Dems keep playing softball. Like I said, what is good for the goose...

The Dems had no use for Murtha until last month? If he felt that way, why has he chosen to remain a Democratic congressman for the last 32 years? He could have switched at any time. Murtha has a great record standing up for the working man. He's been a great Democratic congressman. When they had the majority, he was an important committee chair. Don't confuse your own ignorance of his record with a lack of respect from his colleagues. He is one of the most respected men in the house.

[Tigermike 3,027]

It could be that those "Right Wing zealots" are sick and tired of your extreme Left Wing zealots determining the agenda for the DNC and for dragging the political discourse to the lowest levels possible. It could be that we are sick and tired of your Left Wing zealots ranting about how they support the troops but hate and despise what they are doing. It could be that we are sick and tired of your Left Wing zealots portraying US troops as torturers and child killers. It could be that we are sick and tired of your extreme Left Wing zealots doing everything possible to disrupt the job the troops are doing. It could be that we are sick and tired of your extreme Left Wing zealots undermining troops who are in harms way. it could be that we are sick and tired of your extreme Left Wing zealots spewing their rancorous rhetoric for the past SIX years.

Don't even try to hole up your extreme Left Wing zealots as exemplary purveyors of decent political discourse and rhetoric. That is total BS and you know it.

Don't confuse your own ignorance of his record with a lack of respect from his colleagues. He is one of the most respected men in the house.

Don't confuse a respectful working relationship with the extreme Left Wing zealots who control the DNC as anything other than what it is, using him like a $15.00 ho. They don't respect him because of his illustrious 32 year career as a congressman. They hold him up because he is getting the press and he is saying what they want articulated. Don't you dare try to hold him up as a great leader within the DNC. He wasn't before and he will not be later.

BTW - Did you even know who he was before his recent rants?

[Tiger in Spain 0]

But I don't think there is any excuse for demeaning someone's military service.

210735[/snapback]

Unless that guy happened to fly fighter jets for the Texas Air National Guard, right

It is ridiculous to say the guy's not a "real Marine."  I feel that very strongly.  It is beyond classless and if a decent human being were to slip up and do it, they should have the decency to recognize that and admit it.

210735[/snapback]

Once again, I never slammed his service. I slammed his statement and the dishonor he showed by selling his compatriots out. Murtha is not a real Marine. Real Marines don't operate in such a manner. I'm around Marines each and every day of my life. I crawled through the Iraqi desert with them. I think I'm overly qualified to make the "real Marine" assessment. I have what you democrats like to call "moral authority". A real Marine doesn't knife his buddies in the back ..... not for political gain, not for money, not for anything. It all comes down to faithfulness; semper fidelis...always faithful. I guess you have to be a man to understand that concept; that loyalty to your brothers stands above all else.

Keep calling me names. It further proves you have lost this debate. If I lack what you would consider class and decency, then I am proud of myself.

I think it is awful sweet the way you stand up for your man. CL :love:  TIS

Your crafty use of smiles was close, but not quite accurate. I'm sure its more like this:

CL>TT<TIS

I am sick of hearing Right Wing zealots impugn people's patriotism simply because they disagree with them.  But if that is where you guys are going to insist the battlefield must be, then let's take the gloves off and call each other out on what is patriotic and what is not.  Republicans have been playing hardball politics for years and the Dems keep playing softball.  Like I said, what is good for the goose...

210735[/snapback]

I'm still waiting for you to show me how the actions of these scum can be labeled as supportive of the troops or the war on terror. Personally, I'd rather have 50 Al Qaeda terrorists in front of me than to have 1 liberal democrat behind me. At least I know where the terrorists stand.

Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

The Dems had no use for Murtha until last month?  If he felt that way, why has he chosen to remain a Democratic congressman for the last 32 years?  He could have switched at any time.  Murtha has a great record standing up for the working man.  He's been a great Democratic congressman.  When they had the majority, he was an important committee chair.  Don't confuse your own ignorance of his record with a lack of respect from his colleagues.  He is one of the most respected men in the house.

210738[/snapback]

Up until he undermined the troops, I can't recall ever hearing his name. Same goes for Dick Durbin. Kerry made the name for himself back in Vietnam when he not only sold out his fellow servicemen but his country as a whole. As Yogi Berra so eloquently put it, "It's deja vu all over again."

Now that Murtha has signed on with the anti-war obstructionists running the democrat party, he is superman to you people. Keep praising this man. That's just what Dr Dean expects his zombies to do.

[DKW 86 7,423]

Unless that guy happened to fly fighter jets for the Texas Air National Guard, right

Touche' Man that one must hurt for the next month. Since when has a Dem ever cared for anyone in service? Kerry did nothing while in Vietnam to 'help' his comrades. He went on every show that would have him and ran them into the ground when he got back tho. The Swift Boat Vets did get even with him in my book tho. They likely singlehandedly ruined his election chances.

Read what the vets say about the Anti-Waer Movement in Vietnam. Read What the VC say about it too.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadA...le.asp?ID=13121

How North Vietnam Won The War 

By Grunt.com

Grunt.com | April 26, 2004

What did the North Vietnamese leadership think of the American antiwar movement? What was the purpose of the Tet Offensive? How could the U.S. have been more successful in fighting the Vietnam War? Bui Tin, a former colonel in the North Vietnamese army, answers these questions in the following excerpts from an interview conducted by Stephen Young,  a Minnesota attorney and human-rights activist  [in The Wall Street Journal, 3 August 1995]. Bui Tin, who served on the general staff of North Vietnam's army, received the unconditional surrender of South Vietnam on April 30, 1975. He later became editor of the People's Daily, the official newspaper of Vietnam. He now lives in Paris, where he immigrated after becoming disillusioned with the fruits of Vietnamese communism.

Question: How did Hanoi intend to defeat the Americans?

Answer: By fighting a long war which would break their will to help South Vietnam. Ho Chi Minh said,

"We don't need to win military victories, we only need to hit them until they give up and get out."

Q: Was the American antiwar movement important to Hanoi's victory?

A:  It was essential to our strategy.  Support of the war from our rear was completely secure  while the American rear was vulnerable.  Every day our leadership would listen to world news over the radio at 9 a.m.  to follow the growth of the American antiwar movement.  Visits to Hanoi by people like Jane Fonda, and former Attorney General Ramsey Clark and ministers gave us confidence  that we should hold on  in the face of battlefield reverses. We were elated when Jane Fonda, wearing a red Vietnamese dress, said at a press conference that she was ashamed of American actions in the war and that she would struggle along with us.

[TexasTiger 12,865]

Unless that guy happened to fly fighter jets for the Texas Air National Guard, right

Touche' Mann thjat one must hurt for the next month. Since when has a Dem ever cared for anyone in service? Kerry did nothing while in Vietnam to 'help' his comrades. He went on every show that would have him and ran them into the ground when he got back tho. The Swift Boat Vets did get even with him in my book tho. They likely singlehandedly ruined his election chances.

Read what the vets say about the Anti-Waer Movement in Vietnam. Read What the VC say about it too.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadA...le.asp?ID=13121

How North Vietnam Won The War 

By Grunt.com

Grunt.com | April 26, 2004

What did the North Vietnamese leadership think of the American antiwar movement? What was the purpose of the Tet Offensive? How could the U.S. have been more successful in fighting the Vietnam War? Bui Tin, a former colonel in the North Vietnamese army, answers these questions in the following excerpts from an interview conducted by Stephen Young,  a Minnesota attorney and human-rights activist  [in The Wall Street Journal, 3 August 1995]. Bui Tin, who served on the general staff of North Vietnam's army, received the unconditional surrender of South Vietnam on April 30, 1975. He later became editor of the People's Daily, the official newspaper of Vietnam. He now lives in Paris, where he immigrated after becoming disillusioned with the fruits of Vietnamese communism.

Question: How did Hanoi intend to defeat the Americans?

Answer: By fighting a long war which would break their will to help South Vietnam. Ho Chi Minh said,

"We don't need to win military victories, we only need to hit them until they give up and get out."

Q: Was the American antiwar movement important to Hanoi's victory?

A:  It was essential to our strategy.  Support of the war from our rear was completely secure  while the American rear was vulnerable.  Every day our leadership would listen to world news over the radio at 9 a.m.  to follow the growth of the American antiwar movement.  Visits to Hanoi by people like Jane Fonda, and former Attorney General Ramsey Clark and ministers gave us confidence  that we should hold on  in the face of battlefield reverses. We were elated when Jane Fonda, wearing a red Vietnamese dress, said at a press conference that she was ashamed of American actions in the war and that she would struggle along with us.

210763[/snapback]

Talk about somebody who responds on cue in their best robotic voice.

Any excuse to talk about John Kerry and Jane Fonda. I can see you doing this in the old-folks home and boring all the orderlies to tears. You are the original Johnny-one-note.

[TexasTiger 12,865]

Unless that guy happened to fly fighter jets for the Texas Air National Guard, right 

Flying fighter jets in the TANG is very honorable. NOT flying in the TANG b/c you have been grounded for failing to take a physical after being trained to fly fighter jets is not. At that point he was no longer meeting his obligation. How do you justify that, BTW?

Once again, I never slammed his service.

I asked you if you were a Marine and someone said you were not a real Marine, would you feel that they were slamming your service. Be a "man" and don't dodge the question.

I'm still waiting for you to show me how the actions of these scum can be labeled as supportive of the troops or the war on terror. Personally, I'd rather have 50 Al Qaeda terrorists in front of me than to have 1 liberal democrat behind me. At least I know where the terrorists stand.

I'm still waiting to you to provide the actual quote, in context with link, of what he actually said that you think stabs them in the back. For someone so impressed with his debating skils, you've never actually made an argument. It's been all visceral response up to now. Do that, and I will respond.

[Tiger in Spain 0]

Flying fighter jets in the TANG is very honorable.  NOT flying in the TANG b/c you have been grounded for failing to take a physical after being trained to fly fighter jets is not.  At that point he was no longer meeting his obligation.    How do you justify that, BTW?

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Funny, I don't recall the attacks against Bush this way. Terry McAuliffe, then chairman of the DNC accused him of being AWOL, your boy Rather tried to get him with forged documents, and your war hero Kerry said Bush never showed up for training at all.

But I don't think there is any excuse for demeaning someone's military service.

I don't want to alarm you, but you just exposed yourself as a hypocrite. You said there isn't any reason for demeaning someone's military service, then followed that up by insinuating that by him supposedly failing to meet his obligation (even though he was STILL in the TNG and therefore a member of the US military), then he is fair game for you and the democrat attack dogs.

Which is it, Tex? Are you going to keep shifting the goalposts (in typical democrat fashion)? As a military man, he is either fair game or he is untouchable. He should therefore be treated the same as the people you are sanctimoniously placing on the moral high ground.

I asked you if you were a Marine and someone said you were not a real Marine, would you feel that they were slamming your service.  Be a "man" and don't dodge the question.

210782[/snapback]

If I had said what Murtha did, I would KNOW I wasn't a real Marine anymore. I'm not dodging anything. I've said my piece and I stand by it.

I'm still waiting to you to provide the actual quote, in context with link, of what he actually said that you think stabs them in the back.  For someone so impressed with his debating skils, you've never actually made an argument.  It's been all visceral response up to now.  Do that, and I will respond.

210782[/snapback]

You know what he said, I know what he said, the troops on the battlefield know what he said, and Al Qaeda in Iraq knows what he said. I'm not going on a link hunt for you only to have you shift the discussion to something else. If you want your memory refreshed, look it up yourself.

Don't believe what I say, then read this:

Rep. Murtha is causing casualties

[Tigermike 3,027]

Tex, do you think that Mr. Murtha just one day decided to open up and

speak what was on his heart and mind? Or do you think it possible he was the

"chosen one" of the democrats only because of his military record?

Because if they trot out a vetran, even better a decorated war vetran it would be better

for the dems and get much more air time on the networks & cable news.

[Captain Liger 0]

TT, why don't you just the F up? Your incoherent rambling and attacking of TIS is really starting to piss me off.

I think it is awful sweet the way you stand up for your man. CL :love: TIS

All this talk about messing with the bull and getting the horns-- I’m sure TIS just has the vapors.

210436[/snapback]

Real mature. I was coming to the aid of a fellow brother in arms; something you wouldn't understand.

It's convenient for you to sit here in the comfort of Texas and make idiotic remarks to active duty military who have served overseas protecting people like YOU

My post that you responded to was this: “Murtha has been to Iraq.” Simple statement of fact. Yet you get all bowed up like a drunken sailor. Frankly, with your mindset, you would be more at home in a Latin American Junta— you don’t think civilians have the same rights as you. You don’t really believe in freedom. You can’t, because you don’t even understand it. You think people should be free to be just like you. So you are protecting my freedom to do what? “Shut the F up?”

210436[/snapback]

Actually, I was replying to your entire thread of comments, that just happened to be the post I clicked "reply" on. My apologies for not clearly stating that. Did anyone else have trouble understanding where I was coming from?

Actually, if you must know, I don't think I have the same rights as civilians. There's an old saying in the military that "we have to give up the rights that we defend." If you had any military experience at all then you would know what I'm talking about. With that said I think my, along with TIS, Saniflush, etc, understanding of freedom is probably a little more clear than yours. To say I don't believe in freedom is just absurd. Have your opinions, I don't care. If you want to say abortion is a "right," then say it. If you think the 2nd Amendment should be abolished, then say it. If you think Merry Christmas should be replaced with Happy Holidays, then say it. I don't care, that's your right and it doesn't matter to me. I take issue with the fact that you critize people like TIS, Saniflush, and myself when we speak out against Murtha and what he has done. Whether or not you defend his position is irrelevant. You as a civilian with no military or combat experience have absolutely no knowledge as to where we are coming from on this matter. The things he has said on record, in my mind, is akin to being a traitor. I almost liken him to Benedict Arnold and for you to defend him and his "right" to have such opinions is infuriating. As far as I'm concerned you have no right to an opinion on this particular issue because you can't possibly begin to understand the mindset of an American serviceperson.

How dare you accuse TIS of not being a "real patriot" because he says Murtha isn't a real Marine.

What’s good for the goose…

210436[/snapback]

Covered this already. Again, no right.

Very few things set me off. Talking trash to the military is one of them.

Funny. Here’s the irony. I was actually defending a decorated Marine’s right to express his opinion without being called a “scum” who wasn’t a “real marine,” whether I endorse his position or not.

210436[/snapback]

Covered this too. Defending a dirtbag, how amusing.

But if that bothered you, you’ll love this-- you’re not much of a patriot, either. You don’t even believe in freedom. You don’t even believe in the United States of America. It's your second choice. In fact, you would prefer to be a citizen of another country that rejected the Constitution you’re sworn to defend and protect:

I don't necessarily think that creating a confederacy, in 1861, was a bad idea.

But since you can’t have your beloved anti-USA CSA, you instead long for a one-party system:

If Southern born Democrats today would stop holding onto the past when their daddy's voted for FDR and every other Democrat, there would be a one party system again and it would be the Southern Republicans. I mean, we're basically, with a few exceptions, STILL a one party South but there's enough Democrats in office to say that we aren't.

China has one. So does Cuba. The USSR did, too. Maybe you would be happier in a totalitarian state where you can tell people that you disagree with:

210436[/snapback]

Wow, that's great. Leave it to a Democrat to take something as simple as a history lesson and twist it to suit them and their agenda. Why didn't you finish out those quotes I made, hmmmm? I said creating a confederacy in 1861 wasn't a bad idea because the South was nothing more than a colony of the North. It was like being picked on on the playground by the shcool bully for your lunch money.

Was there anything from that second quote that made me appear to be "longing" for a one party system? Nope. I was simply stating a fact. Nice try though, I'll give you that.

Had I been alive in 1861 I definitely would have resigned my commission to take one with the Confederate Army so go ahead and use this as "proof" and make your little "I hate America" comments but before you do remember this: History is context, history is context.

You should really read some history books sometime and I don't mean ones authored by some flaky revisionist.

I'm not a patriot, , riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

In Captain Liger’s one-party-system-totalitarian-utopia, those with differing opinions don’t even have that right, because he doesn’t really believe in rights and freedoms. And in this case, what is my opinion? Simply that this man has a right to his opinion:

210436[/snapback]

Just shutup already.

A Vietnam combat veteran and a retired Marine Corps colonel with 37 years of service, a rare combination of experience that enables him to understand defense and military operations from every perspective.

He learned about military service from the bottom up, beginning as a raw recruit when he left Washington and Jefferson College in 1952 to join the Marines out of a growing sense of obligation to his country during the Korean War. There he earned the American Spirit Honor Medal, awarded to fewer than one in 10,000 recruits. He rose through the ranks to become a drill instructor at Parris Island and was selected for Officer Candidate School at Quantico, Virginia. He then was assigned to the Second Marine Division, Camp Lejeune, North Carolina. In 1959, Captain Murtha took command of the 34th Special Infantry Company, Marine Corps Reserves, in Johnstown. He remained in the Reserves after his discharge from active duty until he volunteered for Vietnam in 1966-67, receiving the Bronze Star with Combat "V", two Purple Hearts and the Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry. He remained in the Reserves until his retirement. This first-hand knowledge of military and defense issues has made him a trusted adviser to presidents of both parties and one of the most effective advocates for the national defense in Washington. At the request of Presidents and Speakers of the House, he served as chairman of delegations monitoring elections in the Philippines, El Salvador, Panama and Bosnia.

He was awarded the Navy Distinguished Service Medal by the Marine Corps Commandant when he retired from the Marines.

The truth is, you’re not fit to clean his latrine with the disrespect you have shown him.

I have never even endorsed his position, just his right to have it. That’s the difference between us. You talk about freedom, but don’t respect it.

210436[/snapback]

Wow, with all those fancy medals you'd think he would have risen above the rank of Colonel.

Murtha - 37 years of service/highly decorated/retired as a Colonel O-6

Present commander of the 1st Cavalry Division - 29 and a half years of service/decorated/current rank is Major General O-8

Like I said, if you know anything at all about officer progression the above analysis says A LOT.

Impressive, you know what a latrine is. Where'd you learn that at, Mail Call with R. Lee Ermey?

...when I go back to Iraq for my second tour this fall...if I die it won't be because I was protecting your…ass.

We agree on that.

210436[/snapback]

Again, you don't understand where I'm coming from. And why did you take out "America hating?"

Nonetheless, I’ll keep you in my thoughts and prayers and wish you the best over there. Good luck and Godspeed.

210436[/snapback]

I dunno, but for some reason I just don't believe you.

[japantiger 4,051]

Nice point on history.

Dems and reporters don't read history books; unless you consider the OPED page of the NYTimes history. This group is completely ignorant of history; they seem to wear it as a badge.

Everytime a bully walks onto the playground, they say "give him your lunch money; that's the only way we can all get along".....everytime we confront an enemy they say "oh no, we can't win, the bad guys are 10 feet tall and bullet proof; just like the Elite Iraqi Republican Guard"....ewmremember that one; we were actually going to lose on the battlefield....why does anyone listen to these people?

I thank God there are men like David Bellavia who are willing to go in harms way to protect us; in spite of a spineless leadership class. From Valley Forge, to New Orleans, to Gettysburg, to Beleau Woods, to Iwo Jima, to now Iraq.....Semper Fi!

[TexasTiger 12,865]

Nice point on history. 

Dems and reporters don't read history books; unless you consider the OPED page of the NYTimes history.  This group is completely ignorant of history; they seem to wear it as a badge. 

Everytime a bully walks onto the playground, they say "give him your lunch money; that's the only way we can all get along".....everytime we confront an enemy they say "oh no, we can't win, the bad guys are 10 feet tall and bullet proof; just like the Elite Iraqi Republican Guard"....ewmremember that one; we were actually going to lose on the battlefield....why does anyone listen to these people? 

I thank God there are men like David Bellavia who are willing to go in harms way to protect us; in spite of a spineless leadership class.  From Valley Forge, to New Orleans, to Gettysburg, to Beleau Woods, to Iwo Jima, to now Iraq.....Semper Fi!

211029[/snapback]

Here's your robot, folks.

[TexasTiger 12,865]

I'm still waiting to you to provide the actual quote, in context with link, of what he actually said that you think stabs them in the back.  For someone so impressed with his debating skils, you've never actually made an argument.  It's been all visceral response up to now.  Do that, and I will respond.

210782[/snapback]

You know what he said, I know what he said, the troops on the battlefield know what he said, and Al Qaeda in Iraq knows what he said. I'm not going on a link hunt for you only to have you shift the discussion to something else. If you want your memory refreshed, look it up yourself.

210798[/snapback]

So is this part of what you take issue with?

I agree our military is the strongest in the world today, that's not the question. The question is will it be the strongest in the years to come? Everywhere I go I see moms and dads whose son or daughter may wear the uniform and they tell me about how discouraged their son or daughter may be. A recent poll was taken among 1,000 enlisted personnel, as well as officers, over half of whom will leave the service when their time of enlistment is up. The captains are leaving the service. There is a problem. If we don't have a clear vision of the military, if we don't stop extending our troops all around the world and nation building missions, then we're going to have a serious problem coming down the road.

[Tiger in Spain 0]

So is this part of what you take issue with?

I agree our military is the strongest in the world today, that's not the question. The question is will it be the strongest in the years to come? Everywhere I go I see moms and dads whose son or daughter may wear the uniform and they tell me about how discouraged their son or daughter may be. A recent poll was taken among 1,000 enlisted personnel, as well as officers, over half of whom will leave the service when their time of enlistment is up. The captains are leaving the service. There is a problem. If we don't have a clear vision of the military, if we don't stop extending our troops all around the world and nation building missions, then we're going to have a serious problem coming down the road.

211108[/snapback]

Nope, not even close...as usual.

Do any of these sound familiar?

"They know militarily they can't win this," Rep. John Murtha, D-Pa

“There’s no way you can win a war when not only have you lost the hearts and minds of people, when you have become their enemy,” Rep. John Murtha, D-Pa

Way to cheer us on, Murtha! Thank you for your support!

[DKW 86 7,423]

Forget it TIS. All you are going to get now is more questions. Tex has fallen back to his old mantra of "keep asking questions when you dont have an answer that works anymore."

[Tiger in Spain 0]

Forget it TIS. All you are going to get now is more questions. Tex has falen back to his old mantra of "keep asking questions when you dont have an asnwer that works anymore."

211117[/snapback]

I know...I know. I should be horsewhipped for even wasting my time. I'm just so sick of these liberal cowards attacking the men and women over there on the battlefield, and then getting their pink panties all in a wad when they're called on it.

We never even got to the point where General Pace says Murtha is lying. The General never said what Murtha claims he said about the war being unwinnable. I guess this will be another instance of the "what he meant when he said that was...." liberal tagline.

[Guest Tigrinum Major]

I agree our military is the strongest in the world today, that's not the question. The question is will it be the strongest in the years to come? Everywhere I go I see moms and dads whose son or daughter may wear the uniform and they tell me about how discouraged their son or daughter may be. A recent poll was taken among 1,000 enlisted personnel, as well as officers, over half of whom will leave the service when their time of enlistment is up. The captains are leaving the service. There is a problem. If we don't have a clear vision of the military, if we don't stop extending our troops all around the world and nation building missions, then we're going to have a serious problem coming down the road.

211108[/snapback]

I take issue with this statement. Before you ask, no, I don't have a link to back up what I am about to say.

Yes, we are losing people from the military as they return home from the war. Is this anything new? No. Some people do their duty and get out. Others make it a life's work. I have a good friend, patriotic as the day is long, in Kuwait right now that has written that this will do it for him. He has about ten years in service and is about to make Captain (prior enlisted.) He might change his mind when he gets back. Many people do.

Wars cause people to leave the military. Those that stay will provide the basis for the future senior leadership of the military. The poll, which I doubt is scientific, is probably accurate, but nothing out of the ordinary. The military does not need everyone to stay in past their first enlistment. They need more troops than senior leadership. Always has been, always will be.

I have another friend that served in both the first Gulf war and this one. 15 years of service and he was ready to give that up because of time away from his family. Due to the advice of several senior officers, he decided to stay. Another prior enlisted guy, he was just promoted to Captain. He won't stay past twenty, but at least he did not throw away 15 years due to a rash decision.

We will always be the top military in the world. Two factors ensure that: superior technology and the patriotism of people who choose the military as a way of life.

[DKW 86 7,423]

I wondered what the actual retention rate was for the enlisteds and officers over the years in war or peace. Anyone got any real figurs I bet they are very interesting.

[Captain Liger 0]

I wondered what the actual retention rate was for the enlisteds and officers over the years in war or peace. Anyone got any real figurs I bet they are very interesting.

211707[/snapback]

I don't know of any figures or statistics done that reflect retetion over the years but I will look around and see what I can find here on the military side of the house for you.

I saw a report last night that re-enlistment for the U.S. Army in the last fiscal year surpassed 69,500. This easily made up for any shortcomings in recruiting new soldiers right off the streets. Hell, 69,5 is almost half of the entire fighting force in Iraq right now!

Don't let it be said that morale is "down." Murtha can go shove it up his fourth point of contact as far as I'm concerned.

[Guest Tigrinum Major]

Murtha can go shove it up his fourth point of contact as far as I'm concerned.

212667[/snapback]

Airborne!

[Captain Liger 0]

Murtha can go shove it up his fourth point of contact as far as I'm concerned.

212667[/snapback]

Airborne!

212688[/snapback]

All The Way! <lol, and I'm just a five jump chump>

Here's the only official Army website I could find that makes public the Army's recruiting goals and achievements back to FY03.

U.S. Army Recruiting Command

I haven't found any official statistics yet on retention. I'm still looking though.

I found some outside sources on retention statistics so I can't testify to their legitimacy but, here goes:

Recruiting/Retention Statistics on About.com

An independent study conducted on why U.S. Army Captains decide to get out of/stay in the Army I'd say it's about 95% accurate.

AllAmericanPatriots.com - July 19, 2005

[japantiger 4,051]

4th point of contact; that's a term I don't hear every day any longer.

Murtha's intentions are good; don't you understand that!?!?!?! It doesn't matter if it's really true...... it's all about how you feel ......"he feels your pain" ....... he wants it to be true; so that's all that matters.....don't confuse him with the facts....... typical.

Since Dems don't believe in hell, I guess they don't care that is where "good intentions" lead.... (this statement should create a stir)......