Question for Golf and/or WarDamnEagleWDE

[augolf1716 21,213]

Like WDE said its a big old mess or as I would say a big old cluster#$%& but it starts at the top and runs down. Hoping it can be corrected

[IronMan70 3,277]

I am in agreement with points on both sides of the current discussion. Yes, coaching can always be better on any team in college football and this team is no different. Yes the HC is responsible for everything. However I do get what Mikey is saying.

In spite of coaching, play calling, or any other issue, there reaches a point on any team where the players have to say enough is enough, step up and take control of their own team. Because after all, this is their team on the playing field, they are the one's putting their butts on the line doing all the blocking and tackling, not people on the sidelines. They have to decide what legacy they want to create for themselves and make it happen.

[WarTim 3,456]

Amen Ironman. Amen !!

[lionheartkc 6,150]

In spite of coaching, play calling, or any other issue, there reaches a point on any team where the players have to say enough is enough, step up and take control of their own team. Because after all, this is their team on the playing field, they are the one's putting their butts on the line doing all the blocking and tackling, not people on the sidelines. They have to decide what legacy they want to create for themselves and make it happen.

Unfortunately, we now live in a world where these kids were brought up getting a trophy for suiting up and counting on someone else to put them in a position to succeed, or calling mommy and daddy... or a lawyer... if they aren't given what they think they deserve. It's a much bigger step, these days, for most people to find their own way and earn their own successes... not just on the football field, but in life. It's even worse when you are dealing with a bunch of 4 and 5 star players who could get by on talent before they came to the SEC. That's the downfall of Gus being "nice". A lot of these kids need to be broken down and brought back up to rely on themselves and the guys next to them, instead of counting on things just coming to them. See tweets from Cowart as an example. This is the culture that Will, Garner and others are in the process of fixing on the D. Hopefully someone is doing the same for the O.

[homersapien 11,388]

By and large, this thread is more suited to the crap that I used to see on al.com, back before I stopped going there. I don't know what's more disappointing, the team's performance so far or the comments here.(PoetTiger, to name one, gets a pass for his post #105. There are a few others deserving a pass as well)

It's time for the players to take ownership of their team and start playing up to their capabilities. No amount of coaching, good or bad, can overcome the lack of effort it took for a bunch of nationally recruited guys to get taken into overtime by Jax State. That's not on the coaches, the AD or Bo Jackson's statue. It's on the players.

Well, we"ve been curb stomped by lsu, manhandled by msu at home, and let the #119 in the nation run defense push us around for the vast majority of the game. Looks like these guys just never want to play. We should fire them all and start over. Poor coaches got fooled by all the stars.

Your post is pretty ridiculous too Mikey. It can't all be all on the players, or nearly as much as you indicate. If there's no fire in the team for a series of games that points to coaching as much as players. To try to sum up the season by effort against jsu and lay the blame for the year so far on the players is silly. If it is true then that environment was created and allowed to continue by GM and other coaches and that is where the blame would go in my book. Accept half effort and that's what you'll get.

I agree. To blame the players means we somehow signed a bunch of losers - while everyone else signed the winners. That just doesn't pass the common sense test.

One of the biggest mistakes this year was not managing expectations. But no matter how you slice it, it's on the coaches, not the players. (Well except for maybe Duke.)

[chimesAU 89]

Like WDE said its a big old mess or as I would say a big old cluster#$%& but it starts at the top and runs down. Hoping it can be corrected

This.

[homersapien 11,388]

By and large, this thread is more suited to the crap that I used to see on al.com, back before I stopped going there. I don't know what's more disappointing, the team's performance so far or the comments here.(PoetTiger, to name one, gets a pass for his post #105. There are a few others deserving a pass as well)

It's time for the players to take ownership of their team and start playing up to their capabilities. No amount of coaching, good or bad, can overcome the lack of effort it took for a bunch of nationally recruited guys to get taken into overtime by Jax State. That's not on the coaches, the AD or Bo Jackson's statue. It's on the players.

Well, we"ve been curb stomped by lsu, manhandled by msu at home, and let the #119 in the nation run defense push us around for the vast majority of the game. Looks like these guys just never want to play. We should fire them all and start over. Poor coaches got fooled by all the stars.

Your post is pretty ridiculous too Mikey. It can't all be all on the players, or nearly as much as you indicate. If there's no fire in the team for a series of games that points to coaching as much as players. To try to sum up the season by effort against jsu and lay the blame for the year so far on the players is silly. If it is true then that environment was created and allowed to continue by GM and other coaches and that is where the blame would go in my book. Accept half effort and that's what you'll get.

Piss-poor effort is always on the players. 100%. Kicking an extra point when two points are needed? That's on the coaches. Dropping passes, getting shoved around by smaller guys with lesser talent and failing to execute blocks? Players.

I completely agree! Players not holding their blocks, RB's not following their blockers, receivers dropping passes, QBs throwing picks, defensive players whiffing on tackles..All of those issues are on the players.

For any kind of team - be it football, business, politics, whatever - there is a proven causal link between poor leadership and low morale, high turnover, and low output. Meaning? Leaders can and do bring out the best or the worst in those that they lead. Making good or bad decisions in the heat of battle (a la playcalling) is too little, too late if the coach has failed at being a leader between games. In college football, the coaches choose their players, and then get to lead them. If, on the field, the team doesn't perform... This is 100% the fault of the coaches. If the players aren't putting for the effort it's because the coaches recruited bad players OR they haven't led them well. Both of those problems can be fixed with the powers that head coaches of college football teams actually possess.

And I have heard a lot about lack of team leaders among the players. This is also squarely on the coaches. Leaders are supposed to develop leaders. Coaches who get to choose their players are supposed to identify potential leaders among the high school ranks and recruit them. Fail to do this? Failure of the coaches.

So yeah I get upset with players who don't put forth good effort but the person with the power to fix it is standing on the sideline.

ETA: IF the problem is that the coaches DON'T have this power, due to meddling AD's, boosters, "influences," etc, then we have big problems that can't be fixed no matter who the coach is

AMEN!

I have a little knowledge of manufacturing quality assurance and this 'blame the players attitude' reminds me a lot of the statements made decades ago before quality was taken seriously in this country. Poor quality was always blamed on the workers.

But one of the first things Deming taught was quality doesn't come from the workers, it comes from management.

This is on the coaching staff. I hope and trust Gus is learning and we have enough patience to give him a chance to succeed.

[chimesAU 89]

By and large, this thread is more suited to the crap that I used to see on al.com, back before I stopped going there. I don't know what's more disappointing, the team's performance so far or the comments here.(PoetTiger, to name one, gets a pass for his post #105. There are a few others deserving a pass as well)

It's time for the players to take ownership of their team and start playing up to their capabilities. No amount of coaching, good or bad, can overcome the lack of effort it took for a bunch of nationally recruited guys to get taken into overtime by Jax State. That's not on the coaches, the AD or Bo Jackson's statue. It's on the players.

Well, we"ve been curb stomped by lsu, manhandled by msu at home, and let the #119 in the nation run defense push us around for the vast majority of the game. Looks like these guys just never want to play. We should fire them all and start over. Poor coaches got fooled by all the stars.

Your post is pretty ridiculous too Mikey. It can't all be all on the players, or nearly as much as you indicate. If there's no fire in the team for a series of games that points to coaching as much as players. To try to sum up the season by effort against jsu and lay the blame for the year so far on the players is silly. If it is true then that environment was created and allowed to continue by GM and other coaches and that is where the blame would go in my book. Accept half effort and that's what you'll get.

Piss-poor effort is always on the players. 100%. Kicking an extra point when two points are needed? That's on the coaches. Dropping passes, getting shoved around by smaller guys with lesser talent and failing to execute blocks? Players.

I completely agree! Players not holding their blocks, RB's not following their blockers, receivers dropping passes, QBs throwing picks, defensive players whiffing on tackles..All of those issues are on the players.

For any kind of team - be it football, business, politics, whatever - there is a proven causal link between poor leadership and low morale, high turnover, and low output. Meaning? Leaders can and do bring out the best or the worst in those that they lead. Making good or bad decisions in the heat of battle (a la playcalling) is too little, too late if the coach has failed at being a leader between games. In college football, the coaches choose their players, and then get to lead them. If, on the field, the team doesn't perform... This is 100% the fault of the coaches. If the players aren't putting for the effort it's because the coaches recruited bad players OR they haven't led them well. Both of those problems can be fixed with the powers that head coaches of college football teams actually possess.

And I have heard a lot about lack of team leaders among the players. This is also squarely on the coaches. Leaders are supposed to develop leaders. Coaches who get to choose their players are supposed to identify potential leaders among the high school ranks and recruit them. Fail to do this? Failure of the coaches.

So yeah I get upset with players who don't put forth good effort but the person with the power to fix it is standing on the sideline.

ETA: IF the problem is that the coaches DON'T have this power, due to meddling AD's, boosters, "influences," etc, then we have big problems that can't be fixed no matter who the coach is

I have a little knowledge of manufacturing quality assurance and this 'blame the players attitude' reminds me a lot of the statements made decades ago before quality was taken seriously in this country. Poor quality was always blamed on the workers.

But one of the first things Deming taught was quality doesn't come from the workers, it comes from management.

This is on the coaching staff. I hope and trust Gus is learning and we have enough patience to give him a chance to succeed.

Agreed.

[homersapien 11,388]

A few good Deming quotes:

It is not enough to do your best; you must know what to do, and then do your best.

If you can't describe what you are doing as a process, you don't know what you're doing. (Sound familiar?)

It is not necessary to change. Survival is not mandatory.

The big problems are where people don't realise they have one in the first place.

[homersapien 11,388]

Like WDE said its a big old mess or as I would say a big old cluster#$%& but it starts at the top and runs down. Hoping it can be corrected

I hope by "top" you mean the HC.

[fredst 9,064]

There is plenty of blame to go around, players and coaches. In-game coaching decisions are a part of the coaches failures but to suggest that poor leadership from the top doesn't translate to poor effort and execution on the field from even very talented athletes.....that's ridiculous.

[PoetTiger 1,899]

Has anyone factually proven this poor leadership? Gus was praised as a good leader for recognizing he had a problem with EJ as DC, so he makes a change and hires what many believed the best available DC available. Now less than 6 months later he is clueless and inept? The offense is struggling because of poor QB play, and a slowly maturing offensive line unit. No one not even Gus knew that Jeremy would get stage fright. Apparently Every QB Gus has coached has always put up great numbers in the passing game, but now he can't coach? His offenses have always been prolific every where he has been including Auburn....but now he can't call plays or formulate game plans?

[WarTim 3,456]

Has anyone factually proven this poor leadership? Gus was praised as a good leader for recognizing he had a problem with EJ as DC, so he makes a change and hires what many believed the best available DC available. Now less than 6 months later he is clueless and inept? The offense is struggling because of poor QB play, and a slowly maturing offensive line unit. No one not even Gus knew that Jeremy would get stage fright. Apparently Every QB Gus has coached has always put up great numbers in the passing game, but now he can't coach? His offenses have always been prolific every where he has been including Auburn....but now he can't call plays or formulate game plans?

Amen and Amen!!!

[kd4au 1,145]

By and large, this thread is more suited to the crap that I used to see on al.com, back before I stopped going there. I don't know what's more disappointing, the team's performance so far or the comments here.(PoetTiger, to name one, gets a pass for his post #105. There are a few others deserving a pass as well)

It's time for the players to take ownership of their team and start playing up to their capabilities. No amount of coaching, good or bad, can overcome the lack of effort it took for a bunch of nationally recruited guys to get taken into overtime by Jax State. That's not on the coaches, the AD or Bo Jackson's statue. It's on the players.

Well, we"ve been curb stomped by lsu, manhandled by msu at home, and let the #119 in the nation run defense push us around for the vast majority of the game. Looks like these guys just never want to play. We should fire them all and start over. Poor coaches got fooled by all the stars.

Your post is pretty ridiculous too Mikey. It can't all be all on the players, or nearly as much as you indicate. If there's no fire in the team for a series of games that points to coaching as much as players. To try to sum up the season by effort against jsu and lay the blame for the year so far on the players is silly. If it is true then that environment was created and allowed to continue by GM and other coaches and that is where the blame would go in my book. Accept half effort and that's what you'll get.

Piss-poor effort is always on the players. 100%. Kicking an extra point when two points are needed? That's on the coaches. Dropping passes, getting shoved around by smaller guys with lesser talent and failing to execute blocks? Players.

Piss poor effort should be rewarded with time on the damn bench and that is on the coaches.

[KenTiger74 0]

I was looking at the boxes scores on espn for all the first 5 games of Auburn and it does have a cycle of ups and downs in the limited time period. I took screen shots of a word doc to get it lined up the best possible. From the numbers it looks like the offense has took a major step back from last year but the defense is giving up more than double the rush yards and tds from last year. Also, if you look when Gus has a JC experienced QB the HUNH works great but when they leave the team slumps till another true dual threat QB with a little experience is in place. Maybe SW will be that experience QB next year or the next if given the time. Sorry I put so much and showed my geek side. I don't post unless I got something to say and I've been part of this back on the old website with stats. Maybe Stats can do a lot more/better with the stuff I put here.

[lca408 366]

I don't think it has to be one or the other. I think it's a bit of both. Obviously, WDEWDE and Golf think there are some major issues at the top, either JJ or Malzahn or both, and that is what is causing this cluster**** of epic proportions. Okay, I can understand and accept that. But I also agree with other posters that, at a certain point, players have to step up and say enough. I think we have plenty of players on this team that have that drive and that "want to" in them. Maybe they haven't been given the opportunity to show it or maybe they're afraid to, but if the head coach is really as inept as people say he is, like others said, it's time for those players to step up, be leaders, and do some things themselves. That doesn't mean you automatically win. All 11 have to be on the same page and it seems some aren't. Maybe one of those problems has been removed in Duke but Auburn's offensive and defensive problems extend farther than one player with a bad attitude.

I agree with PoetTiger, the idea that Malzahn suddenly became an imbecile overnight is ridiculous. Perhaps he's in over his head in terms of organization and that's hurting his overall outlook on the situation ie: how to ask for help, how to manage the staff, how to manage responsibilities, etc. but he hasn't forgotten how to coach basic football. The problem with the offense, in my opinion, boils down to two things: average to below average QB play and a lack of execution. Poor QB play may sometimes be overcome by tweaking the offense to rely on a power run game, etc. but if the O-line and everyone else is routinely missing blocks or not executing correctly, it's all for naught. To me, this is the biggest obstacle to Auburn's success so far - lack of execution. Technically you could say the same applies to the QB position. The offense hasn't been "figured out" any more than any other offense can be figured out - all offenses have tendencies and all offenses run base plays routinely. Auburn is no different and whether that play is run out of the shotgun or the power I doesn't matter. Execution matters. Auburn's playbook in 2013 was no more complex than it is this year. We simply executed at an extremely high level so that no defense could really and truly shut us down. Same with 1995 Nebraska - unbelievably precise execution and consistency and a maddeningly simple playbook that everyone knew about but still couldn't stop.

Execute better and you get better results. Get improved QB play and things can get even better. I guess you can reduce it down to "it's the coaches' responsibility to make sure they execute correctly" and you're probably right but again, at a certain point, the players have to actually do it. A coach can harp on execution, giving 110% effort, motivate and put the guys in the right spot, but if a certain player decides to take a play or two off here and there, is it still the coach's fault? You can only do so much. Perhaps the method is incorrect and the actual motivation is flawed but again, ultimately, it comes down to 1 on 1 matchups and players doing their jobs. If a guy has been coached and coached and coached extensively, given every opportunity, and still continues to perform badly, at some point you have to give the other guy a shot to do it better.

Like I said, I see both sides and I see both issues at work. The coaches are probably 75% to blame for the position this team is currently in, but on an individual level, the players are too since they're the ones that actually do the dirty work.

[aubinvnam 29]

Would everyone feel better if our qb was Dameyune Craig and our best receiver Hicks Poor? I know I would. (Watching 1997 game against LSU). Gonna stomp a mud hold in Lexington tomorrow regardless. War damn

[tiger88 934]

Has anyone factually proven this poor leadership? Gus was praised as a good leader for recognizing he had a problem with EJ as DC, so he makes a change and hires what many believed the best available DC available. Now less than 6 months later he is clueless and inept? The offense is struggling because of poor QB play, and a slowly maturing offensive line unit. No one not even Gus knew that Jeremy would get stage fright. Apparently Every QB Gus has coached has always put up great numbers in the passing game, but now he can't coach? His offenses have always been prolific every where he has been including Auburn....but now he can't call plays or formulate game plans?

Gus has to take some heat for the performance so far. Not saying he's toast at all and most here are saying they think or are hoping he can right the ship and I think he can. However, this didn't just start this year. We started faltering last year and the slide accelerated. There are more than a few signs of mismanagement including a new DC stating the culture around here needs to change, just to name one blaringly obvious one.

I am pulling for Gus big time, but as some have verified, we have some issues that need fixing.

[chimesAU 89]

Has anyone factually proven this poor leadership? Gus was praised as a good leader for recognizing he had a problem with EJ as DC, so he makes a change and hires what many believed the best available DC available. Now less than 6 months later he is clueless and inept? The offense is struggling because of poor QB play, and a slowly maturing offensive line unit. No one not even Gus knew that Jeremy would get stage fright. Apparently Every QB Gus has coached has always put up great numbers in the passing game, but now he can't coach? His offenses have always been prolific every where he has been including Auburn....but now he can't call plays or formulate game plans?

Amen and Amen!!!

How do you factually prove poor leadership? I gave Gus credit for building the offense. There's more to being a head coach in the SEC than putting up offensive numbers...we've already established that. Gus firing EJ doesn't make him a good leader. A good leader would've salvaged the season last year and had the football team ready to compete this year.The offense is struggling because of poor play? That doesn't fall on the coaches?

[tiger88 934]

Would everyone feel better if our qb was Dameyune Craig and our best receiver Hicks Poor? I know I would. (Watching 1997 game against LSU). Gonna stomp a mud hold in Lexington tomorrow regardless. War damn

I know when DC was drafted by Carolina they commented something along the lines that he was the best coached/disciplined qb they had seen coming right out of college.

[bigbird 60,567]

So, hypothetically, A player is taught and shown how to play with the proper technique, but on game day does it his own way and plays well 55% of the snaps, whose fault is it? And before you say bench him, the player's back up is worse and far more ineffective due to some reason.

To me, a coach can be the greatest coach ever, but if the player fails to accept responsibility for his play and isn't accountable to himself or his teammates, then the product on the field will be bad no matter the coaching. Coaches coach, but players play.

[wareagleguy 1,393]

So, hypothetically, A player is taught and shown how to play with the proper technique, but on game day does it his own way and plays well 55% of the snaps, whose fault is it? And before you say bench him, the player's back up is worse and far more ineffective due to some reason.

To me, a coach can be the greatest coach ever, but if the player fails to accept responsibility for his play and isn't accountable to himself or his teammates, then the product on the field will be bad no matter the coaching. Coaches coach, but players play.

Do you think it is more physical or mental with this bunch? I know with WM saying something to the effect that they were asked to scale back, makes me lean more to the latter. I'm not sure why this is so, but it seems it is.

[ausburn 159]

So, hypothetically, A player is taught and shown how to play with the proper technique, but on game day does it his own way and plays well 55% of the snaps, whose fault is it? And before you say bench him, the player's back up is worse and far more ineffective due to some reason.

To me, a coach can be the greatest coach ever, but if the player fails to accept responsibility for his play and isn't accountable to himself or his teammates, then the product on the field will be bad no matter the coaching. Coaches coach, but players play.

......but...but... it has to be JJ's and Gus's fault.....

[chimesAU 89]

So, hypothetically, A player is taught and shown how to play with the proper technique, but on game day does it his own way and plays well 55% of the snaps, whose fault is it? And before you say bench him, the player's back up is worse and far more ineffective due to some reason.

To me, a coach can be the greatest coach ever, but if the player fails to accept responsibility for his play and isn't accountable to himself or his teammates, then the product on the field will be bad no matter the coaching. Coaches coach, but players play.

I understand your point and respect where it's coming from but still disagree. Sure, it's ultimately on the players to perform but when you have this many players failing to perform it points to a systemic problem. That lies at the feet of the coaches.

[bigbird 60,567]

So, hypothetically, A player is taught and shown how to play with the proper technique, but on game day does it his own way and plays well 55% of the snaps, whose fault is it? And before you say bench him, the player's back up is worse and far more ineffective due to some reason.

To me, a coach can be the greatest coach ever, but if the player fails to accept responsibility for his play and isn't accountable to himself or his teammates, then the product on the field will be bad no matter the coaching. Coaches coach, but players play.

Do you think it is more physical or mental with this bunch? I know with WM saying something to the effect that they were asked to scale back, makes me lean more to the latter. I'm not sure why this is so, but it seems it is.

Mental, IMO We are making the same mistakes over and over again, and I guarantee CWM isn't coaching the LB's to routinely over run plays etc.