Baptisms at the Athletics Complex

[selias 2,398]

3 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Evolutionary biology explains how we got from the first living thing to all the living things we have now.  It has no explanation, scientific or otherwise, for how we got from nothing to something.  To me, believing that things just poofed themselves into existence with no external cause (or that that external cause had no cause to it) is an attempt to cling to naturalism by faith rather than reason or science.

If we're going back to the very origins of life on this planet, I'd look to biochemistry before jumping to a deity.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

4 minutes ago, selias said:

If we're going back to the very origins of life on this planet, I'd look to biochemistry before jumping to a deity.

Biochemistry still can't tell us how literal nothingness can produce something-ness.  And by nothingness, I mean everything - matter, energy, the whole shebang.

And if you posit that energy just existed eternally without an initial cause, well then you're back at faith.

[Barnacle 9,064]

Just now, TexasTiger said:

Religious ceremony/ritual, certainly. I think there’s a difference in saying “You should...” and answering honestly about the role of faith in your own life if the conversation organically goes there.

I agree. I just think it gets difficult when you move past something as demonstrable as a baptism, to speech about one's faith. 

To me, the baptism presents less problems than someone like Chette on staff does. But, I also don't have any clear picture as to what Chette's exact role is within the program. Are players ever referred to him? It's one thing if a player says, "I want to talk to Chette." It's another thing if players are being referred to Chette by coaches and/or other paid staff members. For instance, if someone's family member dies, are they told to speak with Chette?

[selias 2,398]

11 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Biochemistry still can't tell us how literal nothingness can produce something-ness.  And by nothingness, I mean everything - matter, energy, the whole shebang.

And if you posit that energy just existed eternally without an initial cause, well then you're back at faith.

So, we're back to the Big Bang? As I stated earlier in the thread, I find cosmology and theoretical physics interesting but, I'm far too much of a layman to try and explain it.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

1 minute ago, selias said:

So, we're back to the Big Bang? As I stated earlier in the thread, I find cosmology and theoretical physics interesting but, I'm far too much of a layman to try and explain it.

Haha.  I understand.  I can't purport to explain it all either.  I'm just saying that our positions on the origins of existence aren't really as far apart as you might think.  

[Barnacle 9,064]

To link my previous post with a comment you made earlier, @TexasTiger, it would make sense to me - if players routinely requested for help getting their teeth cleaned - to provide a dental hygienist to perform those duties at the players' request. If there appears to be a great need or desire from players specifically seeking Christian counsel, so much so that it would warrant someone's full-time dedication to that role, then someone like Chette makes sense to me. It would also make sense to me for Auburn to hire a similar counselor of a different faith, if the need arose to the same level. In this instance, I'm just approaching that issue from a simple cost/benefit point of view. I certainly think Chette's presence raises a lot of problems, but depending on how they are dealt with, how that role is defined, and what boundaries are in place,  I can't necessarily say that there is anything harmful about his role.

[aujeff11 6,243]

40 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

If someone tells you they want to be baptized why not connect them to a church? If they say they want their teeth cleaned are you going to bring in a hygienist?

I’m about to bow out of the coversation for awhile because I have nothing left to add, but if the team chaplain is on campus and it was student led, I really don’t see a problem in him doing it. It really isn’t like bringing in hygienists ( which isn’t all that far fetched (anymore)given the barbershops in the athletic facilities across America.) Maybe there is top-down influence, maybe there isn’t. Maybe the environment is conducive to  wearing their beliefs on their sleeve, and destiny, and faith and it’s something that the recruit can appreciate. Very often, you’ll see recruit’s twitter pages with bible verses and biblical quotes. I don’t see religion in the locker room as a bad thing. It’s more of locker room culture thing for some anyway. 

And I hate to say it, but there have been Auburn athletes with the “When God is with me who can be against me” twitter profiles that went around smoking dope and getting in trouble at Auburn as well. It’s almost like a facade. If y’all are worried that there is a straight up revival going down, y’all can rest easy. I followed Coach Jonathan Wallace and he was constantly tweeting that he had a good church service or whatever and he was more than likely genuine. However, I’m sure we still have many  kids that thank their good Lord for their God given ability that also listen to crude rap music, that have sex without marriage, and that smoke the devils grass. Let’s just call it like it is. 

[TexasTiger 12,961]

22 minutes ago, Barnacle said:

To link my previous post with a comment you made earlier, @TexasTiger, it would make sense to me - if players routinely requested for help getting their teeth cleaned - to provide a dental hygienist to perform those duties at the players' request. If there appears to be a great need or desire from players specifically seeking Christian counsel, so much so that it would warrant someone's full-time dedication to that role, then someone like Chette makes sense to me. It would also make sense to me for Auburn to hire a similar counselor of a different faith, if the need arose to the same level. In this instance, I'm just approaching that issue from a simple cost/benefit point of view. I certainly think Chette's presence raises a lot of problems, but depending on how they are dealt with, how that role is defined, and what boundaries are in place,  I can't necessarily say that there is anything harmful about his role.

AU attends to the health needs of its athletes, so if they want to bring in a hygienist, makes sense. But if I’m a high school coach and a player tells me he wants to be baptized, I connect him to the minister of his choosing for that to happen in the normal course of how that church meets that request.

[PigskinPat 2,579]

52 minutes ago, selias said:

If we're going back to the very origins of life on this planet, I'd look to biochemistry before jumping to a deity.

Because millions of random chances falling perfectly into place millions of different times makes much more sense than intelligent design?

[AU64 10,122]

9 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

However, I’m sure we still have many  kids that thank their good Lord for their God given ability that also listen to crude rap music, that have sex without marriage, and that smoke the devils grass. Let’s just call it like it is. 

Not sure that many Christians consider themselves sin free.....and just hoping they try to do the right thing as often as possible. 

And just to opine but seems this thread took a major shift somewhere along the way.....started off as some bogus discussion about church and state which everyone knew was bogus.  The US Government hires and pays Chaplains throughout the world with no apparent concern for the "church and state argument" and we are supposed to worry about a handful of young men being Baptized at the Athletic Center ?  what a crock.... 

For Example....The current Chaplain, the 62nd Chaplain of the United States Senate, Barry C. Black, is the first African-American and the first Seventh-day Adventist to serve in the position. He previously served as Chief of Chaplains of the United States Navy, holding the rank of Rear Admiral.

In my view, some of these posters were not the least bit concerned about the interests or wishes of the young men and women at Auburn.....just using the posting of that short vid in attempt to push their anti-religious views on others  and in doing so, they included some gratuitous negative commentary about religion and those who believe.  Open minded free-thinkers in action.

From the beginning this seemed to be a campaign against religion and had nothing to do with looking out for the well being of young men engaged in a significant moment in their lives..  

Time to move this to Political where it probably should have been in the first place....

[AUGunsmith 666]

Pppsssss, come closer, I have a secret. God doesn't exist. 

[Barnacle 9,064]

4 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

AU attends to the health needs of its athletes, so if they want to bring in a hygienist, makes sense. 

Fair enough. The point I was trying to make was that if a need grows to the level of requiring full-time attention, and the need is reasonably determined to be essential, then it makes sense to provide for that need. If that need becomes so large that out-sourcing services becomes  unfeasible or ineffective, then you go through the process of determining whether that service can be provided for in-house. This is how we end up with a staff of full-time physical therapists.

Setting aside the debate over whether Christian-specific spiritual needs are essential in the same way that physical therapy is essential, I can easily envision a scenario where out-sourcing students to churches or ministers in the community becomes unfeasible or ineffective. Either the ministers don't have the time or resources to accommodate all the players being referred, or their churches require membership, or they aren't well suited for the specific needs of student athletes, etc. I'm just saying, I can see where out-sourcing could become problematic. Baptisms are a different issue. I agree, you can figure out a different time and place to perform a baptism, but I'm not talking about a few players getting baptized every year. I'm talking about a significant number of Christian athletes whose need for a chaplain warrants a full-time position. IF that's what we are talking about, and there is a significant enough need for those services on the Auburn football team, then it makes sense to me to accommodate that need by providing a full-time staff member. 

That being said, there are plenty of problems presented by Chette's role. I just don't know enough about that role to form my own opinions as to whether the role is appropriately defined, or whether he is acting within appropriate bounds. Its a tricky issue, and there is probably a lot of gray area. Also, given the culture of Auburn athletics, the locality, and the prevalence of Christianity among the administration, staff, players, students and alumni, it would not surprise me if Chette's role is given more latitude than what I might consider appropriate. 

 

[Mike4AU 1,739]

@AU64, you hit the nail on the head!  What a crock, indeed. 

[TitanTiger 20,499]

20 minutes ago, AUGunsmith said:

Pppsssss, come closer, I have a secret. God doesn't exist. 

There are people here who fall on different sides of this issue who are nonetheless able to talk intelligently and respectfully.  Join the conversation in like manner or leave.  Simple as that.  We've no time for trolling.

[DAG 33,997]

1 hour ago, TexasTiger said:

If someone tells you they want to be baptized why not connect them to a church? If they say they want their teeth cleaned are you going to bring in a hygienist? I’m not saying the two are identical, but they each are things people can choose and neither typically happens in a state owned workplace.

That is the point of having a chaplain on the team , correct? If someone told me they wanted their teeth cleaned, I would steer them towards my personal dentist. Likewise, if someone told me they wanted to be baptized, I would help them find the appropriately resource whether it is the team chaplain on hand or a specific church I knew. It really isn’t as difficult as you are making it. You might feel some personal way about it? That is within your rights as well, but it’s not for you to censor how someone allocates resources. You would have a point if I was forcefully imposing my will on someone else, but if someone asks me during my office time about a tooth cleaning, I doubt I am going to get burnt at the stake for directing them in an appriopriate manner. 

[TexasTiger 12,961]

3 minutes ago, DAG said:

That is the point of having a chaplain on the team , correct? If someone told me they wanted their teeth cleaned, I would steer them towards my personal dentist. Likewise, if someone told me they wanted to be baptized, I would help them find the appropriately resource whether it is the team chaplain on hand or a specific church I knew. It really isn’t as difficult as you are making it. You might feel some personal way about it? That is within your rights as well, but it’s not for you to censor how someone allocates resources. You would have a point if I was forcefully imposing my will on someone else, but if someone asks me during my office time about a tooth cleaning, I doubt I am going to get burnt at the stake for directing them in an appriopriate manner. 

I’m not even sure what you just said.

[DAG 33,997]

5 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

I’m not even sure what you just said.

I’m not even sure what point you are trying to make. You are arguing from 3 different stands. You quote one of my comments that has nothing to do with your stance. You have the audacity to compare a chaplain to teeth cleaning then want a rational response to it when that wasn’t a rational comparison. I think your biggest beef is why do we need a team chaplain? That is a completely different discussion compared to my original reply toward Red. 

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

2 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

Do it after work away from the workplace.

Do you post while at work?

 

[Grumps 3,704]

5 hours ago, selias said:

I believe I'm here due to evolutionary biology as are the rest of the plants and animals on this rock. I ascribe none of it to any sort of divinity.

Exactly. Random mutations and time. Your consciousness is a product on random mutations and time. Your ability to apply logic and reason and anticipate the future is all the result of random mutations and time. To me, that seems at least as preposterous and a divine being.

[TexasTiger 12,961]

 

13 minutes ago, DAG said:

I’m not even sure what point you are trying to make. You are arguing from 3 different stands. You quote one of my comments that has nothing to do with your stance. You have the audacity to compare a chaplain to teeth cleaning then want a rational response to it when that wasn’t a rational comparison. I think your biggest beef is why do we need a team chaplain? That is a completely different discussion compared to my original reply toward Red. 

Other than responding to questions on related topics, my primary point has been in regard to performing religious rituals/ceremonies such as baptizing on state property. I’m not responsible for your audacious reading comprehension.

[selias 2,398]

1 hour ago, PigskinPat said:

Because millions of random chances falling perfectly into place millions of different times makes much more sense than intelligent design?

Absolutely. I can accept that we do not currently have full understanding of how everything began. To me, inserting a deity into the equation demonstrates a discomfort with the as yet unknown.

[selias 2,398]

17 minutes ago, Grumps said:

Exactly. Random mutations and time. Your consciousness is a product on random mutations and time. Your ability to apply logic and reason and anticipate the future is all the result of random mutations and time. To me, that seems at least as preposterous and a divine being.

The theory of evolution is well tested and documented.

[selias 2,398]

2 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

Haha.  I understand.  I can't purport to explain it all either.  I'm just saying that our positions on the origins of existence aren't really as far apart as you might think.  

The requirement of a supreme being is a bit of a sticking point.

That's much more harsh in text than I intended. So much is lost in a medium like this in sensitive discussions.

[AUsince72 11,084]

Being a Christian, I understand the reason for "arguing" the point of our Lord and Savior as it IS the great commission to spread the good news to any who will listen. Also, we are taught to do it lovingly as we are all brothers and sisters in Christ and we want what is best for all.

We are not to judge, though we are judged very harshly.  We are to strive to live as Jesus' example but to not pretend to be perfect.  Christians are as imperfect as anybody....I'm a prime example.  However, that is the beauty of the good news... We don't have to be.  We just need to trust in Jesus Christ.

I'm not sure what the point of arguing AGAINST Jesus is unless it's a deep seeded guilt. 

Point and laugh because your "superior"?  Sure, I get that....but why so angry and personal about your attacks against those who are blessed enough to know the love of Christ?  ....who actually only want you, too, to feel those same blessings?

And I'll end my sermon with a bumper sticker moment...

IF, it were to turn out we Christians are wrong and there's "nothing"?   ..oh well, the joke's on us.  At least we lived life with a beautiful purpose.

But if you believe there's no Hell....you'd BETTER be right.

God bless you all!

[DAG 33,997]

1 hour ago, TexasTiger said:

 

Other than responding to questions on related topics, my primary point has been in regard to performing religious rituals/ceremonies such as baptizing on state property. I’m not responsible for your audacious reading comprehension.

And this has been discussed at great length with some quality points. You added zero to the discussion with any of your trivial content. You went from converting during work time to why do we have chaplains? , finally to should we have ritual ceremonies on Auburn property? Those are theee distinctive talking points. Truthfully, you have zero point.