Woman accuses Kavanaugh of sexual assault decades ago

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[TitanTiger 20,542]

This would be a really good time for all the older white men who've never even come close to experiencing any sort of sexual assault to shut the **** up when it comes to explaining or questioning what is a reasonable way to behave or handle things for victims.

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Just now, TitanTiger said:

This would be a really good time for all the older white men who've never even come close to experiencing any sort of sexual assault to shut the **** up.

(Not) talking is a free action.

[homersapien 11,511]

7 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

This would be a really good time for all the older white men who've never even come close to experiencing any sort of sexual assault to shut the **** up when it comes to explaining or questioning what is a reasonable way to behave or handle things for victims.

Presumably, that's exactly why the committee Republicans hired a woman to do their work.

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A good read. 

Link

[TitanTiger 20,542]

1 minute ago, homersapien said:

Presumably, that's exactly why the committee Republicans hired a woman to do their work.

Seriously.  Even if you just look at this from a cold, calculated, strategic perspective - completely uncaring about the truth - it's a bad look for the GOP for Old Man to be offering his opinion on whether she's acting victimy enough to be believed. 

[Barnacle 9,064]

1 hour ago, AUDub said:

How do notoriously date-rapey frats continue to exist and throw well-attended parties? Human behavior, man.

I mean, I saw some pretty shady s*** in my misspent youth. That girls were taken advantage of routinely is pretty much a known. Remember, all of this took place well before the ones that exploded. Steubenville, for example. 

I'm not arguing that this sort of thing doesn't happen. Of course it happens. It is a known that girls are routinely taken advantage of. I'm not arguing differently.

I'm just confused at how gang rape is being equivocated with date rape. In terms of actor's behavior, they are very different from each other. One falls into a category of behavior that we know is more typical - typical may not be the right word - but we know that date rape happens, and that it happens very frequently. Drugging women and then gang raping them rises to a level of conspiracy, and cold, calculating, premeditated, predatory behavior that I am entirely unfamiliar with. 

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1 hour ago, Barnacle said:

I'm not arguing that this sort of thing doesn't happen. Of course it happens. It is a known that girls are routinely taken advantage of. I'm not arguing differently.

I'm just confused at how gang rape is being equivocated with date rape. In terms of actor's behavior, they are very different from each other. One falls into a category of behavior that we know is typical. The other rises to a level of conspiracy, and cold, calculating, premeditated, predatory behavior that I am entirely unfamiliar with. 

Think of the mindset of the era. Remember what I said about movies from that time, and then you’ll know exactly why. Pop culture had a lot of rapey s*** in it that seemed normal at the time. It just wasn’t really viewed as rape. People didn't speak much about it. It was all “stranger danger” and stuff like that. We really didn't get much education about this kind of thing. Rapists and sexual predators weren't seen to be people you might know. Rape was something that happened in back alleys, perpetrated by evil, ugly criminals with knives or guns. And this applies to me. Only as an adult did I understand that behavior I might have accepted even back when I was in high school relatively (HTHS c/o 04) recently, could easily be considered sexual assault by today's standards. 

This really isn't that complicated. The era. The need to be popular. The peer pressure and the universal belief of youth that “it will never happen to me.”  Even then, a young girl at the time might just think that's the way things were and to deal with it, and later on realize how ****** up it was

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

1 hour ago, AUDub said:

I can.

Seriously, though, my social circle didn't dissolve overnight when we all graduated. Still hung with my varsity football buddies ±3 years my age. 

College kids don’t attend high school parties. Gotta admit that’s weird as s***.

[Barnacle 9,064]

3 minutes ago, AUDub said:

Think of the mindset of the era. Remember what I said about movies from that time, and then you’ll know exactly why. Pop culture had a lot of rapey s*** in it that seemed normal at the time. It just wasn’t really viewed as rape. People didn't speak much about it. It was all “stranger danger” and stuff like that. We really didn't get much education about this kind of thing. Rapists and sexual predators weren't seen to be people you might know. Rape was something that happened in back alleys, perpetrated by evil, ugly criminals with knives or guns. And this applies to me. Only as an adult did I understand that behavior I might have accepted even back when I was in high school relatively (HTHS c/o 04) recently, could easily be considered sexual assault by today's standards. 

This really isn't that complicated. The era. The need to be popular. It's peer pressure and the universal belief of youth that “it will never happen to me.”  Even then, a young girl at the time might just think that's the way things were and to deal with it, and later on realize how ****** up it was.

I'm not saying I don't understand why they girls would continue to go to these parties. I'm not questioning that. I'm not even trying to comment on that topic. Whatever their reasons are, they are their own and I'm not going to question a victim on why or why not they choose to come forward.

But, Titan said these parties sound like the one's he remembers people talking about in high school and that surprised me. If you asked me whether I've attended parties where date rape occurred, or the kind of assault alleged by Dr. Ford alleged, I would say more than likely I've been to a party where something like that happened. On the other hand, I would find it shocking if I had been to parties where boys were drugging women, putting them in rooms, and then lining up outside to gang rape them. That's all I'm saying. That doesn't seem commonplace to me - even if it is the truth in this case. 

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15 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

College kids don’t attend high school parties. Gotta admit that’s weird as s***.

Doesn't sound too strange. Maybe it's different where you live. When I was a teenager, I recall plenty of college aged folks at parties. Vaguely recall going to one with my little bro after I graduated too.

[TitanTiger 20,542]

13 minutes ago, Barnacle said:

I'm not saying I don't understand why they girls would continue to go to these parties. I'm not questioning that. I'm not even trying to comment on that topic. Whatever their reasons are, they are their own and I'm not going to question a victim on why or why not they choose to come forward.

But, Titan said these parties sound like the one's he remembers people talking about in high school and that surprised me. If you asked me whether I've attended parties where date rape occurred, or the kind of assault alleged by Dr. Ford alleged, I would say more than likely I've been to a party where something like that happened. On the other hand, I would find it shocking if I had been to parties where boys were drugging women, putting them in rooms, and then lining up outside to gang rape them. That's all I'm saying. That doesn't seem commonplace to me - even if it is the truth in this case. 

Some of that is due to what Dub is saying though...things that are clearly understood to be sexual assault or rape such as having sex with a girl who is too drunk to consent, weren't looked at the same way back then.  She was just a "party girl" that gave it up to the fellas.  It's not like (at least the vast majority of the time) they were going in and banging an unconscious girl.  But she was far too wasted to resist or consent and multiple dudes were getting a piece and she was barely able to remember half of it the next morning.  I know it's hard to believe, but while I wouldn't say that was what was happening every weekend, it happened far more often than you'd think, coming from today's mindset on the issue.

[Barnacle 9,064]

3 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Some of that is due to what Dub is saying though...things that are clearly understood to be sexual assault or rape such as having sex with a girl who is too drunk to consent, weren't looked at the same way back then.  She was just a "party girl" that gave it up to the fellas.  It's not like (at least the vast majority of the time) they were going in and banging an unconscious girl.  But she was far too wasted to resist or consent and multiple dudes were getting a piece and she was barely able to remember half of it the next morning.  I know it's hard to believe, but while I wouldn't say that was what was happening every weekend, it happened far more often than you'd think, coming from today's mindset on the issue.

I guess I'll just take your word on it. It's a tough pill to swallow though. Anecdotally, I don't recall ever witnessing that type of behavior, and I'm glad for it. 

[TitanTiger 20,542]

3 minutes ago, Barnacle said:

I guess I'll just take your word on it. It's a tough pill to swallow though. Anecdotally, I don't recall ever witnessing that type of behavior, and I'm glad for it. 

I didn't have the stomach for it either and didn't go to those parties.  But I knew people who did.  Not that I didn't want to have sex like every other horny 16-year old, but I guess I always saw it being with a girl I was dating, not riding train on some slobbering drunk chick at a party.  I was leery of being pressured into getting blackout drunk by the big time partier douchebags.  By my junior year, I was getting more serious about my faith and determined to wait til I got married, so even the secondhand info was more removed.

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

25 minutes ago, AUDub said:

Doesn't sound too strange. Maybe it's different where you live. When I was a teenager, I recall plenty of college aged folks at parties. Vaguely recall going to one with my little bro after I graduated too.

Yeah nah I can’t understand college kids partying with minors... as a junior in college especially 

[AU64 10,122]

13 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

Yeah nah I can’t understand college kids partying with minors... as a junior in college especially 

I grew up in a small town and it was not uncommon for kids home from college to go to the same parties as kids from the HS they attended a year or two before. Pretty routine for HS senior boys to date HS soph girls and keep those relationships after guys left for school. …..and some of the guys eventually married their younger sweethearts when the girls got out of HS or went off to college.   I guess that was dangerous....but in those days, having a beer was considered pushing it for HS or younger college kids and the idea of group sex?  ....we were obviously naïve and stupid...  

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

4 minutes ago, AU64 said:

I grew up in a small town and it was not uncommon for kids home from college to go to the same parties as kids from the HS they attended a year or two before. Pretty routine for HS senior boys to date HS soph girls and keep those relationships after guys left for school. …..and some of the guys eventually married their younger sweethearts when the girls got out of HS or went off to college.   I guess that was dangerous....but in those days, having a beer was considered pushing it for HS or younger college kids and the idea of group sex?  ....we were obviously naïve and stupid...  

It’s the aggregate of the circumstances that just do not add up. She got raped at one of his “rape parties,” but nonetheless continued going to them? 

Oh and not to mention the timing, as I’ve said before. Weighing all of the circumstances together, for literally every accuser, just smells funny. We already know that this is nothing more than a political ploy for democrats, thank you Feinstein.

[TitanTiger 20,542]

4 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

It’s the aggregate of the circumstances that just do not add up. She got raped at one of his “rape parties,” but nonetheless continued going to them?

Based on my reading of it, she didn't get raped, but then continue to go to the parties.  She went to parties where this kind of sexual activity was going on, but then it happened to her.  And I don't find it all that unusual, especially for the time.  Girls I went to high school went to crazy parties like that without getting crazy themselves all the time.  She even said she avoided the punch because it was known to be spiked.  She, like a lot of dumb teenagers, though it happened to girls who weren't careful.  Or maybe they were sluts and asking for it.  They were those kinds of girls.  But not her.  She's smart and careful.

But then someone slipped something in her drink.

 

4 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

Oh and not to mention the timing, as I’ve said before. Weighing all of the circumstances together, for literally every accuser, just smells funny. We already know that this is nothing more than a political ploy for democrats, thank you Feinstein.

So we're back to the timing argument again?  

[AU64 10,122]

6 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

It’s the aggregate of the circumstances that just do not add up. She got raped at one of his “rape parties,” but nonetheless continued going to them? 

Oh and not to mention the timing, as I’ve said before. Weighing all of the circumstances together, for literally every accuser, just smells funny. We already know that this is nothing more than a political ploy for democrats, thank you Feinstein.

No question there....was just responding to a comment.....and thinking how times had changed  and the stuff happening as described by the "accuser" in the 1980s would have never crossed our minds in the 1950s and early 1960s.   Too bad....

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

4 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Based on my reading of it, she didn't get raped, but then continue to go to the parties.  She went to parties where this kind of sexual activity was going on, but then it happened to her.  And I don't find it all that unusual, especially for the time.  Girls I went to high school went to crazy parties like that without getting crazy themselves all the time.  She even said she avoided the punch because it was known to be spiked.  She, like a lot of dumb teenagers, though it happened to girls who weren't careful.  Or maybe they were sluts and asking for it.  They were those kinds of girls.  But not her.  She's smart and careful.

But then someone slipped something in her drink.

 

So we're back to the timing argument again?  

You don’t have to find my position objectively reasonable. You’ve made your view clear. 

Yes, you know I think the timing of all of this is crucial. 

Read the statement again, she claims she was a victim in 1982.

[TitanTiger 20,542]

1 minute ago, NolaAuTiger said:

You don’t have to find my position objectively reasonable. You’ve made your view clear. 

The difference is, my views make me say "slow down, look into this deeper, take her seriously, talk to her and Kavanaugh, and don't rush to confirm."  It's is objectively reasonable.  It's called prudence.  Your views read more as, "I know this is all bull**** and they're lying."

 

1 minute ago, NolaAuTiger said:

Yes, you know I think the timing of all of this is crucial. 

And yes, experts in the field say that it's a spurious argument.

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

2 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

The difference is, my views make me say "slow down, look into this deeper, take her seriously, talk to her and Kavanaugh, and don't rush to confirm."  It's is objectively reasonable.  It's called prudence.  Your views read more as, "I know this is all bull**** and they're lying."

 

And yes, experts in the field say that it's a spurious argument.

“Experts in the field.” Oh please. Whoever they are, they are not the arbiters of qualifying a sound position.

The democrats have one goal in all of this and you know it. 

I am not saying none of these women were raped. I am saying that there is literally no merit and no evidence that implicates BK. Mere unsubstantiated allegations could prevent him from serving on the Supreme Court. That alone is bull****. Given the current political theatre, pure fabrication isn’t unrealistic. On the scale of BS allegations, where I would put Roy Moore at a 5, this is a 10.

[TitanTiger 20,542]

Just now, NolaAuTiger said:

“Experts in the field.” Oh please. Whoever they are, they are not the arbiters of qualifying a sound position.

But they are experts in reactions and behaviors of sexual assault victims.  As such they have a far better understanding of why victims don't speak up at the time and sometimes wait for many years, even decades before telling anyone.  So at least in this area and this "timing" argument, they are far better arbiters of what a sound position is.

 

Just now, NolaAuTiger said:

The democrats have one goal in all of this and you know it. 

I am not advocating or defending Democrats nor is anyone else in this thread.  

 

Just now, NolaAuTiger said:

I am not saying none of these women were raped. I am saying that there is literally no merit and no evidence that implicates BK. Mere unsubstantiated allegations could prevent him from serving on the Supreme Court. That alone is bull****. Given the current political theatre, pure fabrication isn’t unrealistic. On the scale of BS allegations, where I would put Roy Moore at a 5, this is a 10.

And I'm not definitively saying he did it.  I'm not even ready to give a gut feeling as to what I think is true.  I am saying there are serious allegations from credible, accomplished women that deserve more than a half-assed, rushed hearing so we can quickly move on to confirmation.

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[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

5 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

But they are experts in reactions and behaviors of sexual assault victims.  As such they have a far better understanding of why victims don't speak up at the time and sometimes wait for many years, even decades before telling anyone.  So at least in this area and this "timing" argument, they are far better arbiters of what a sound position is.

That does not sufficiently invalidate one’s skepticism though. Maybe for you it does, but for me it doesn’t. I think you’re having trouble seeing this in full context. Consider all other accompanying circumstances as well. Primaries are just around the corner, Feinstein sat on it, no one expected another appointment this soon, we continue delaying the vote, another allegation drops one day before Ford hearing, and so on and so on.

Reasonable minds could question the viability and truthfulness of the allegations considering the aggregate circumstances.