Maturing Politically, Yes, we should listen to BOTH sides...

[DKW 86 7,441]

Everybody loses a shoutdown.

[AUFAN78 3,926]

Great, great post brother. Doubt it gets much play on this forum, but it should. #Seektruth.

[DKW 86 7,441]

On 9/26/2018 at 8:02 PM, AUFAN78 said:

Great, great post brother. Doubt it gets much play on this forum, but it should. #Seektruth.

You were correct...

[AUFAN78 3,926]

12 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

You were correct...

Tribes. They are a thing.

[johnnyAU 3,650]

Love Stossel. He has always been a voice of reason amidst the chaos. 

I also like this guy's show the Rubin Report and the group of individuals they have collected and call the Intellectual Dark Web.

We don't always have to agree, and we won't on many issues. That doesn't mean we need to completely shut out one side of debate. 

Hopefully one day, as the extremists continue to gather on the outskirts of both parties, perhaps it will drive the rational folks from both sides to the center. There perhaps we can make some real progress. 

[AUDub 11,184]

Gotta be careful though. False balance is a thing. Should I entertain an idea I find abhorrent? Don't really care to hear about how the Jews did 9/11 from some random yahoo on the internet. 

[Mid Atlantic Tiger 150]

I totally appreciate his point, and agree with the premise, except for his opinion on "The Left".  Trust me, this cuts both ways.  

I love having a conversation with people who disagree, or totally think differently than do I.  It's really all about listening.  But I can assure you that folks on the Conservative side don't want to discuss, they just want to argue.  And most with really very bad information and lousy facts, especially Theologically. But I listen.  Respectfully.  Then I weigh the good and bad, and move on.

One of my best mates is a professor at a university in Alabama.  Leading up to the elections, I flew down to visit, and see how he was doing.

The first night we went out to dinner, and he hit me with it.  Hard.  For 2 solid hours.  I listened.  Hard.  With intent.  He is a Republican, and let me know that he, and others like him in Alabama, were not going to be ignored, ever again. That those of us from the Coasts need to have a "come uppance."  I listened, asking him questions to make certain he knew I was listening, never interrupting.  For two solid hours.

But when it came to my turn, I wasn't going to be given the same courtesy.  for forty minutes, I tried to speak, and he constantly interrupted, and spoke over me, until I stood up and called for the check.  He reached for his wallet, and I told him to save it.  It hurt him.

I looked at him and said, "for two hours I listened to you.  Asking questions to make certain that I understood and that you KNEW I was paying attention to you.  Never interrupting.  And you cannot grant me the same."

Now folks, this was with a fella that has his PHD from an SBC seminary in Texas.  He isn't a moron. And we actually see eye to eye in a few Theological ways.

I agree that we need listen to one another.  I listen to Evangelicals, showing them respect and dignity, but I can promise you that it is never returned. Never.  My thoughts and opinions are just shouted down and stamped.

Until BOTH sides respect each other, it ain't going to happen. 

 

 

[DKW 86 7,441]

24 minutes ago, Mid Atlantic Tiger said:

I totally appreciate his point, and agree with the premise, except for his opinion on "The Left".  Trust me, this cuts both ways.  

I love having a conversation with people who disagree, or totally think differently than do I.  It's really all about listening.  But I can assure you that folks on the Conservative side don't want to discuss, they just want to argue.  And most with really very bad information and lousy facts, especially Theologically. But I listen.  Respectfully.  Then I weigh the good and bad, and move on.

One of my best mates is a professor at a university in Alabama.  Leading up to the elections, I flew down to visit, and see how he was doing.

The first night we went out to dinner, and he hit me with it.  Hard.  For 2 solid hours.  I listened.  Hard.  With intent.  He is a Republican, and let me know that he, and others like him in Alabama, were not going to be ignored, ever again. That those of us from the Coasts need to have a "come uppance."  I listened, asking him questions to make certain he knew I was listening, never interrupting.  For two solid hours.

But when it came to my turn, I wasn't going to be given the same courtesy.  for forty minutes, I tried to speak, and he constantly interrupted, and spoke over me, until I stood up and called for the check.  He reached for his wallet, and I told him to save it.  It hurt him.

I looked at him and said, "for two hours I listened to you.  Asking questions to make certain that I understood and that you KNEW I was paying attention to you.  Never interrupting.  And you cannot grant me the same."

Now folks, this was with a fella that has his PHD from an SBC seminary in Texas.  He isn't a moron. And we actually see eye to eye in a few Theological ways.

I agree that we need listen to one another.  I listen to Evangelicals, showing them respect and dignity, but I can promise you that it is never returned. Never.  My thoughts and opinions are just shouted down and stamped.

Until BOTH sides respect each other, it ain't going to happen. 

 

 

Sorry, you feel that way. I too, get run over for sticking up for my thinking. I am wwwaaayyy too jaded and I know it. When certain words come out of people's mouths, I just know what they have read and I can basically intellectually ignore them. I hate to say that i have adopted "dog whistles" but I have. They are NOT the mainstream "dog whistles" however.

On the Right, if i detect some Rush-Hannity garbage,  i  just walk away. These folks are brainwashed with ANTI-facts on most subjects. Can people not understand that R-H are info-tainers? They are not fact based, they are opinion based and You cannot base your opinion on their opinion. Your opinion must come from facts.

EX: These people refuse to allow for even the discussion of Medicare for all.
Refuse to consider that Big Business is well beyond powerful and rich and are indeed extremely predatory.
They refuse to see systematic entrenched racism all over the world. Yes we are better, but he have a long long long way to go.

On the Left, I see kindred spirits AND some that have obviously watched their brains fall out. Camille Paglia, Kyle Kulinski, Christopher Hitchens and others. I love them. Feel like i have fellow travelers in the world. These people are Left but still think and banter with thinkers on the Right. I hate hearing the brain dead or brain missing talking point regurgitators. They REFUSE with their last breath to think about anything.
"ALL Republicans are racists!!!!" Even the black ones?
"Donald Trump is a racist." DJT dated black women and was darling of the Rainbow-Push-CBC-NAACP Crowd for decades. 
"The US military are all murderers!" I assure you the people in Europe and other countries freed by our troops do not feel that way.US Veterans are THE BEST People on the Earth.
"_________ are fascists!" Have you any knowledge of the historical context of fascism and what it really defined?

Dog Whistle of the Week: The Word Mob.
The Right has begun to use the word to define or FRAME the midterm election. The Right has come forward to cast "ALL Left protests are Violent Mob actions."
The Left has goose-stepped right back saying that "NO Left Protest is violent, only a response to violence." 

Already the discussion is dead.
To many on the Right, ALL Protests are now going to be "Violent" and the Left is by and large Violent. (Straight out of the Nixon playbook.)
To many on the Left, Violence at protests is a good thing. it should be condoned and supported and approved. (Straight out of the Weathermen handbook.)

Wise Folks would say: Any violence is bad and both sides have been violent at times. Violence should be deplored and stopped. Free Speech should be for all on both sides.  Violence by any should be ruthlessly put down by both sides.

Whole point of this was to lower the temperature on the forum and maybe in the world as a whole. But we are being played by media people playing all this for ratings, clicks and $$$...Murica!

 

[Mid Atlantic Tiger 150]

2 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

Sorry, you feel that way. I too, get run over for sticking up for my thinking. I am wwwaaayyy too jaded and I know it. When certain words come out of people's mouths, I just know what they have read and I can basically intellectually ignore them. I hate to say that i have adopted "dog whistles" but I have. They are NOT the mainstream "dog whistles" however.

On the Right, if i detect some Rush-Hannity garbage,  i  just walk away. These folks are brainwashed with ANTI-facts on most subjects. Can people not understand that R-H are info-tainers? They are not fact based, they are opinion based and You cannot base your opinion on their opinion. Your opinion must come from facts.

EX: These people refuse to allow for even the discussion of Medicare for all.
Refuse to consider that Big Business is well beyond powerful and rich and are indeed extremely predatory.
They refuse to see systematic entrenched racism all over the world. Yes we are better, but he have a long long long way to go.

On the Left, I see kindred spirits AND some that have obviously watched their brains fall out. Camille Paglia, Kyle Kulinski, Christopher Hitchens and others. I love them. Feel like i have fellow travelers in the world. These people are Left but still think and banter with thinkers on the Right. I hate hearing the brain dead or brain missing talking point regurgitators. They REFUSE with their last breath to think about anything.
"ALL Republicans are racists!!!!" Even the black ones?
"Donald Trump is a racist." DJT dated black women and was darling of the Rainbow-Push-CBC-NAACP Crowd for decades. 
"The US military are all murderers!" I assure you the people in Europe and other countries freed by our troops do not feel that way.US Veterans are THE BEST People on the Earth.
"_________ are fascists!" Have you any knowledge of the historical context of fascism and what it really defined?

Dog Whistle of the Week: The Word Mob.
The Right has begun to use the word to define or FRAME the midterm election. The Right has come forward to cast "ALL Left protests are Violent Mob actions."
The Left has goose-stepped right back saying that "NO Left Protest is violent, only a response to violence." 

Already the discussion is dead.
To many on the Right, ALL Protests are now going to be "Violent" and the Left is by and large Violent. (Straight out of the Nixon playbook.)
To many on the Left, Violence at protests is a good thing. it should be condoned and supported and approved. (Straight out of the Weathermen handbook.)

Wise Folks would say: Any violence is bad and both sides have been violent at times. Violence should be deplored and stopped. Free Speech should be for all on both sides.  Violence by any should be ruthlessly put down by both sides.

Whole point of this was to lower the temperature on the forum and maybe in the world as a whole. But we are being played by media people playing all this for ratings, clicks and $$$...Murica!

 

Thanks DKW.  I really appreciate what you just shared.  

I get my news from BBC and Deutsche Welle, and from the ZDF and the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung(I am fluent in German, so it keeps me in practice).

And yes, I lean left, but I do tire of the Kulinski's and other's banter as much as I do from Evangelicals screaming that "you can't be a Democrat and be a Christian." I mean, how stupid on both sides. 

Today at the gym, I struck up a conversation with a fella on the elliptical next to mine.  His daughter is a senior at URichmond, my girls are a Jr at UNCCH and William & Mary.  He is a decided Evangelical, me, I am a former SBC'er who found a home in the Episcopalian Church.  I am, for all intents and purposes, to Evangelicals, a Theological Liberal, and very thankful for it.  

But today, he was quite surprised that I listened to him. Respectfully. He wasn't prepared for that after we shared a touch of our thoughts regarding our faith.  We ended up having an hour and a half conversation, that ended with us sharing our business cards with each other, and finding time on our schedules for lunch. This came about as we both called ourselves "Followers of Christ".  It really made a mark.

He was surprised that I didn't have an issue with him voting mainly to get a Conservative judge on the SCOTUS, and was even more surprised that I was behind Kavanaugh until I watched his testimony after Dr. Ford's.  And we discussed with respect toward the other, and truly listened to one another.

There's hope, but it will take a lot of work.  

[Mid Atlantic Tiger 150]

DKW, I will also say one other thing:  I was in Charlottesville on August 12 of last year.  I work there once a week.  It is my wife's home town, and I absolutely love it.

I was with a group of Clergy, and I will say, that I am thankful ANTIFA.  We were going to be run over by a group of men who were carrying shields, bats with razor wire, guns, and other weapon, when ANTIFA got between the two of us.  I will tell you that I wet my pants that morning.

I don't agree with all of ANTIFA's actions or thoughts.  But I am thankful that they were there that day.  

[DKW 86 7,441]

24 minutes ago, Mid Atlantic Tiger said:

DKW, I will also say one other thing:  I was in Charlottesville on August 12 of last year.  I work there once a week.  It is my wife's home town, and I absolutely love it.

I was with a group of Clergy, and I will say, that I am thankful ANTIFA.  We were going to be run over by a group of men who were carrying shields, bats with razor wire, guns, and other weapon, when ANTIFA got between the two of us.  I will tell you that I wet my pants that morning.

I don't agree with all of ANTIFA's actions or thoughts.  But I am thankful that they were there that day.  

What were the Bad Guys there for? I dont remember any protests?

[Mid Atlantic Tiger 150]

It was the moving of the Lee and Jackson Statues from downtown to another park.

Trust me, the Alt-Right and the Neo-Nazis and the "Oath Keepers" really were playing for keeps.  It could have gotten much worse

[DKW 86 7,441]

47 minutes ago, Mid Atlantic Tiger said:

It was the moving of the Lee and Jackson Statues from downtown to another park.

Trust me, the Alt-Right and the Neo-Nazis and the "Oath Keepers" really were playing for keeps.  It could have gotten much worse

Wow...Over statues that should never have been anywhere but a Museum or a Cemetery.

[DKW 86 7,441]

13 hours ago, Mid Atlantic Tiger said:

And yes, I lean left, but I do tire of the Kulinski's and other's banter as much as I do from Evangelicals screaming that "you can't be a Democrat and be a Christian." I mean, how stupid on both sides. 

BTW, I like Kyle, but his attacks on people of faith are just crazy. I hope some day he grows up on some of his overly exuberant Leftisms.

[AUFAN78 3,926]

22 hours ago, Mid Atlantic Tiger said:

I totally appreciate his point, and agree with the premise, except for his opinion on "The Left".  Trust me, this cuts both ways.  

I love having a conversation with people who disagree, or totally think differently than do I.  It's really all about listening.  But I can assure you that folks on the Conservative side don't want to discuss, they just want to argue.  And most with really very bad information and lousy facts, especially Theologically. But I listen.  Respectfully.  Then I weigh the good and bad, and move on.

One of my best mates is a professor at a university in Alabama.  Leading up to the elections, I flew down to visit, and see how he was doing.

The first night we went out to dinner, and he hit me with it.  Hard.  For 2 solid hours.  I listened.  Hard.  With intent.  He is a Republican, and let me know that he, and others like him in Alabama, were not going to be ignored, ever again. That those of us from the Coasts need to have a "come uppance."  I listened, asking him questions to make certain he knew I was listening, never interrupting.  For two solid hours.

But when it came to my turn, I wasn't going to be given the same courtesy.  for forty minutes, I tried to speak, and he constantly interrupted, and spoke over me, until I stood up and called for the check.  He reached for his wallet, and I told him to save it.  It hurt him.

I looked at him and said, "for two hours I listened to you.  Asking questions to make certain that I understood and that you KNEW I was paying attention to you.  Never interrupting.  And you cannot grant me the same."

Now folks, this was with a fella that has his PHD from an SBC seminary in Texas.  He isn't a moron. And we actually see eye to eye in a few Theological ways.

I agree that we need listen to one another.  I listen to Evangelicals, showing them respect and dignity, but I can promise you that it is never returned. Never.  My thoughts and opinions are just shouted down and stamped.

Until BOTH sides respect each other, it ain't going to happen. 

 

 

I've been shut down by both, but if I am totally honest, the left is relentless in this activity. Total blinders. MSM talking points ad nauseam.

One caveat, I work mostly with the left. Results are potentially skewed.

[DKW 86 7,441]

On 10/16/2018 at 9:13 PM, Mid Atlantic Tiger said:

Thanks DKW.  I really appreciate what you just shared.  

I get my news from BBC and Deutsche Welle, and from the ZDF and the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung(I am fluent in German, so it keeps me in practice).

 

1

I like Reuters and various Individual Journalists and Opinion Makers. I like RCP because they do a great cross section and do a lot of point-counterpoint article matching.  They do probably the overall best at poll consolidation. i did not say they were the singular best though, they arent. They do a sound compilation and straightforward presentation tho.

TED is the bomb too. There are turkeys on TED, but it is rare.

[johnnyAU 3,650]

On 10/16/2018 at 5:54 PM, Mid Atlantic Tiger said:

 But I can assure you that folks on the Conservative side don't want to discuss, they just want to argue.

From what I've seen, more on the liberal side have become averse to debate, and instead choose to try and shout down anyone with different views. It has become pervasive on college campuses. That isn't intelligent dialogue, but a one-way dismantling of free speech. 

It has progressed to the point that it no longer matters the accuracy, or "rightness or wrongness" of either side. It has devolved into a shouting match, devoid of practicality and understanding of the subject at hand. 

Hopefully this is one of the dangers that has been acknowledged, and will help drive the rational majority to the center. 

[homersapien 11,453]

52 minutes ago, johnnyAU said:

From what I've seen, more on the liberal side have become averse to debate, and instead choose to try and shout down anyone with different views. It has become pervasive on college campuses. That isn't intelligent dialogue, but a one-way dismantling of free speech. 

It has progressed to the point that it no longer matters the accuracy, or "rightness or wrongness" of either side. It has devolved into a shouting match, devoid of practicality and understanding of the subject at hand. 

Hopefully this is one of the dangers that has been acknowledged, and will help drive the rational majority to the center. 

Here's you chance. 

What specifically, are you referring to?

[johnnyAU 3,650]

13 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Here's you chance. 

What specifically, are you referring to?

Since we referenced Rubin above, let's go with some examples that have been on his show. 

1) Look up the ridiculousness that surrounded the students at Evergreen State College in Washington and Brett Weinstein. You can find interviews with Brett and Dave on the Rubin Report.  

2) Then, for giggles, you can also look into what happened with teaching assistant Lindsay Shepherd at Wilfrid Laurier University in Ontario.

3) From ^ you can tangentially get to some interviews with Jordan Peterson on the attack on free speech

4) If you aren't satisfied with that, you can just watch the video of Dave Rubin himself at his speech at the University of New Hampshire.

These types of misguided antics, steeped in ignorance,  are becoming alarmingly frequent across campuses. 

[DKW 86 7,441]

On 10/16/2018 at 9:18 PM, Mid Atlantic Tiger said:

DKW, I will also say one other thing:  I was in Charlottesville on August 12 of last year.  I work there once a week.  It is my wife's home town, and I absolutely love it.

I was with a group of Clergy, and I will say, that I am thankful ANTIFA.  We were going to be run over by a group of men who were carrying shields, bats with razor wire, guns, and other weapon, when ANTIFA got between the two of us.  I will tell you that I wet my pants that morning.

I don't agree with all of ANTIFA's actions or thoughts.  But I am thankful that they were there that day.  

I may have read that the wrong way, that was separate from the March, correct? The Statue protest i mean?

[bigbird 60,580]

7 hours ago, johnnyAU said:

Since we referenced Rubin above, let's go with some examples that have been on his show. 

1) Look up the ridiculousness that surrounded the students at Evergreen State College in Washington and Brett Weinstein. You can find interviews with Brett and Dave on the Rubin Report.  

2) Then, for giggles, you can also look into what happened with teaching assistant Lindsay Shepherd at Wilfrid Laurier University in Ontario.

3) From ^ you can tangentially get to some interviews with Jordan Peterson on the attack on free speech

4) If you aren't satisfied with that, you can just watch the video of Dave Rubin himself at his speech at the University of New Hampshire.

These types of misguided antics, steeped in ignorance,  are becoming alarmingly frequent across campuses. 

You might enjoy the article I posted on this last night.

 

[homersapien 11,453]

10 hours ago, johnnyAU said:

Since we referenced Rubin above, let's go with some examples that have been on his show. 

1) Look up the ridiculousness that surrounded the students at Evergreen State College in Washington and Brett Weinstein. You can find interviews with Brett and Dave on the Rubin Report.  

2) Then, for giggles, you can also look into what happened with teaching assistant Lindsay Shepherd at Wilfrid Laurier University in Ontario.

3) From ^ you can tangentially get to some interviews with Jordan Peterson on the attack on free speech

4) If you aren't satisfied with that, you can just watch the video of Dave Rubin himself at his speech at the University of New Hampshire.

These types of misguided antics, steeped in ignorance,  are becoming alarmingly frequent across campuses. 

So picking out a few radical examples proves something about liberals?  I've never even heard of Dave Rubin.  That's like citing a white nationalist as the defining example of conservatives.

But I have heard of Donald Trump who condones physical violence against journalists:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-greg-gianforte_us_5bc92ea7e4b0d38b58767374

‘He’s My Kind Of Guy’: Trump Celebrates Congressman Who Body-Slammed Reporter

 

[Mid Atlantic Tiger 150]

21 hours ago, johnnyAU said:

Since we referenced Rubin above, let's go with some examples that have been on his show. 

1) Look up the ridiculousness that surrounded the students at Evergreen State College in Washington and Brett Weinstein. You can find interviews with Brett and Dave on the Rubin Report.  

2) Then, for giggles, you can also look into what happened with teaching assistant Lindsay Shepherd at Wilfrid Laurier University in Ontario.

3) From ^ you can tangentially get to some interviews with Jordan Peterson on the attack on free speech

4) If you aren't satisfied with that, you can just watch the video of Dave Rubin himself at his speech at the University of New Hampshire.

These types of misguided antics, steeped in ignorance,  are becoming alarmingly frequent across campuses. 

To be honest, I have seen the same, not only from students at Evangelical colleges, but also their administrators and professors.  Sat in a few of them wishing I were elsewhere...

Honestly, the best time to watch real indoctrination is just traveling over to Jerry's World in Danville and watch.  

[DKW 86 7,441]

3 hours ago, Mid Atlantic Tiger said:

To be honest, I have seen the same, not only from students at Evangelical colleges, but also their administrators and professors.  Sat in a few of them wishing I were elsewhere...

Honestly, the best time to watch real indoctrination is just traveling over to Jerry's World in Danville and watch.  

In years past, I too have sat in on some of these meetings/Camp Meetings/Political Rallies and was sickened and shocked by it all. 
I work daily with half a dozen or so "tent making" pastors. I am shocked at the things they say to me. I work with two of the most successful black people in my company. I am wink-winked and nod-nodded by some of these "pastors" trying to make their lame-ass racist jokes about the two of them. I was expected by these "pastors" to be "in on" their lame-ass jokes. Yall should know me by now, I have no problem putting stupid in its place.   I have been called "N-Word Lover" to my face by one and told that I am part of some "Phony Christian Church" because where I attend is integrated and has,  i would guess, 6-8 actively attending gay couples.  I have friends that have attended TRBC in the past. We are cordial and non-engaging people. They know I have zero place in my life for their brainwashed country club religion.

[johnnyAU 3,650]

On 10/19/2018 at 8:00 AM, homersapien said:

So picking out a few radical examples proves something about liberals?  I've never even heard of Dave Rubin.  That's like citing a white nationalist as the defining example of conservatives.

But I have heard of Donald Trump who condones physical violence against journalists:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-greg-gianforte_us_5bc92ea7e4b0d38b58767374

‘He’s My Kind Of Guy’: Trump Celebrates Congressman Who Body-Slammed Reporter

 

I give you several examples, based on the initial thread post of a pretty widespread issue on college campuses today. You can get to many others from there...if you wish.

I'm certain you can find examples of alarming behavior on the other extreme side.  If you look at one of my earlier posts, I allude to just that and that my hope is that the extremes will eventually force the rational folks from each side towards the center where maybe we find common ground.

Yet you respond with the equivalent of  "...but, but, but....Trump!"

Dude, I'm not even a Trump supporter. My household didn't cast a single vote his way.