Vaccine passport on the way?

[TitanTiger 20,506]

On 5/21/2021 at 3:57 PM, MaxCohen216 said:

My goodness.  How the tables have turned against people who choose to remain unvaccinated.

To recap, I believe in the medical community, up and until they say that a man can become a woman, and vice versa. 

As it relates to the COVID vaccine, I accept that contracting COVID is bad, and that the vaccine is good.  And although I've had both (COVID and the vaccine), I can understand why young people would be skeptical of taking the vaccine.  That's a personal choice.  In my case, after having COVID, I just want to know when and where I can take anything (booster shots) recommended by medical science.  Because I believe in the vaccine and the science behind it.  Yet I'm 58 years old, and am more vulnerable than young families who barely show symptoms.

And even though I am fully vaccinated, I will never show proof of vaccination to anyone for any reason.  That's akin to the former (1930s-1940s) Nazi orders of "show me your papers".  Which three of my uncles fought in WWII to dismantle.

For the love of all that is holy, can we stop comparing the asking of one's vaccination status to the apprehension and extermination of Jews by the Nazis?  It's a terrible analogy and it's insulting to put the two things on the same level.

Asking if you're vaccinated or restricting access to certain places to the vaccinated is not persecution.  

[metafour 4,969]

3 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

Asking if you're vaccinated or restricting access to certain places to the vaccinated is not persecution.  

You really have no idea how this is going to work, do you?

The government - acting on behalf of certain stakeholders - will pressure all businesses to enact these vaccination "guidelines". In effect, EVERY business and workplace will treat those who refuse vaccination as lepers. That is by definition "persecution", and worse yet, it is a soft form of coercion that will force individuals into giving away their personal freedoms in order to live "normal life". Why should anyone who has already had COVID or carries the antibodies be coerced into taking a vaccination for it? None of this makes any logical sense from even a scientific standpoint. 

[TitanTiger 20,506]

21 minutes ago, metafour said:

it is a soft form of coercion that will force individuals into giving away their personal freedoms in order to live "normal life".

You mean like how you don't have the freedom to send your kids to a public school or university (and most private ones as well) without them getting a whole slate of vaccinations before they are admitted?  My child is headed to college this fall and just went to the doctor to get three different vaccines that are required before this fall.  Or how various employers can require certain vaccinations for anyone who wants to work for them?  Is that the kind of precious personal freedom we are in unprecedented danger of losing?

As far as those who know they've gotten COVID already, first that only affects about 10% of the US population right now.  That's no where near a majority of the folks squalling like a stuck pig about getting a vaccine. But second, a lot depends on when they got it.  If they were one of those who got it earlier last year, it's quite possible those antibodies are fading.  So a decent percentage of that 10% probably needs to step up and get a vaccine at this point.  

Finally, I know a lot of people don't really give a damn about anyone but themselves, but there are people out there who still have to live their lives - work, go to school, shop for necessities, etc. - that can't get the vaccine yet for health reasons.  They might be undergoing chemo or have other autoimmune issues.  Or they are too young to get it.  These people depend on the rest of us not spreading it to them when they have to venture out to do the things they have to do to live.  I've watched a friend of mine who's my age die from this, another friend my age be hospitalized and recover, and currently have another one fighting for their life in the hospital now and who probably has permanent lung damage that will eventually kill them in the next few years even if they get out of the hospital, not to mention numerous others that it waylaid for weeks who didn't get hospitalized.  This s*** is serious and people need to quit spreading bull**** about the vaccines, quit minimizing the disease and quit yelling about "BUT MUH FREEDDUMB" every time someone suggests it isn't always all about you.

[AU9377 5,000]

18 minutes ago, metafour said:

You really have no idea how this is going to work, do you?

The government - acting on behalf of certain stakeholders - will pressure all businesses to enact these vaccination "guidelines". In effect, EVERY business and workplace will treat those who refuse vaccination as lepers. That is by definition "persecution", and worse yet, it is a soft form of coercion that will force individuals into giving away their personal freedoms in order to live "normal life". Why should anyone who has already had COVID or carries the antibodies be coerced into taking a vaccination for it? None of this makes any logical sense from even a scientific standpoint. 

What you seem scared of is never going to happen.  Why would Covid be treated differently from other vaccinations?  Children can't enroll in most schools without proof of vaccination.  Colleges and Universities require the same before enrolling.  Why shouldn't a cruise ship be able to restrict passengers to vaccinated people, given that they may have a ship stranded for months at sea if an outbreak occurs?  I could go on and on, but I can just cut it short by stressing that there is no man behind a curtain somewhere that is motivated to take away the "freedoms" of every day people.  With a country of over 300 million people, there will be times that we must think of our fellow man and his or her well being just as we do our own.  Sometimes that will require a small amount of sacrifice.  Otherwise, what we will have is a community wherein nobody wants to live.

[metafour 4,969]

21 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

You mean like how you don't have the freedom to send your kids to a public school or university (and most private ones as well) without them getting a whole slate of vaccinations before they are admitted?  My child is headed to college this fall and just went to the doctor to get three different vaccines that are required before this fall.  Or how various employers can require certain vaccinations for anyone who wants to work for them?  Is that the kind of precious personal freedom we are in unprecedented danger of losing?

This cute analogy only works under the assumption that all vaccinations are the same and the illnesses they treat are the same severity - which they aren't. But expanding your own thought: did you carry around your children's vaccination records with you and flash them to gain entry into a grocery store? A library? A sporting event? No? Why not? So what point are you trying to make? The entire question is whether or not exclusion from BASIC human liberties through what would essentially become forced vaccination is a form of persecution. In your own counter-argument, you listed TWO "exclusions" that are already presidented - schools and universities. You are free to home-school your children, and no one is reliant on attending university to function in society - as such there is no real limitation and your point is moot. What is being QUESTIONED is a draconian caste system wherein those who choose not to receive this vaccine are excluded from society in whole. Maybe use some foresight and think of the precedent that this sets.

[TitanTiger 20,506]

2 minutes ago, metafour said:

This cute analogy only works under the assumption that all vaccinations are the same and the illnesses they treat are the same severity - which they aren't.

Some of the required vaccines are for diseases less serious than COVID - mumps for instance.  Measles is more contagious but less deadly.  This argument doesn't hold.

 

2 minutes ago, metafour said:

But expanding your own thought: did you carry around your children's vaccination records with you and flash them to gain entry into a grocery store? A library? A sporting event? No? Why not? So what point are you trying to make?

The point is, there is precedent for vaccines being required to do certain things in this country - among them, attending school and being hired at certain workplaces.  It doesn't matter whether instead of school it's a restaurant or a sporting event, the point is, it's reasonable for a private business owner to require a vaccination if they deem it necessary for the safety of them or their staff just as it's reasonable for Auburn University to require certain vaccines to attend there or live in campus housing.

 

2 minutes ago, metafour said:

The entire question is whether or not exclusion from BASIC human liberties through what would essentially become forced vaccination is a form of persecution. In your own counter-argument, you listed TWO "exclusions" that are already presidented - schools and universities. You are free to home-school your children, and no one is reliant on attending university to function in society - as such there is no real limitation and your point is moot. What is being QUESTIONED is a draconian caste system wherein those who choose not to receive this vaccine are excluded from society in whole. Maybe use some foresight and think of the precedent that this sets.

And you are free to patronize those businesses which do not require you to be vaccinated.  You are not reliant upon being admitted into any specific restaurant or concert to function in society.  As such, there is no real limitation and your objection is moot.

[AUDub 11,160]

I wonder if metafour goes all sovereign citizen when someone asks to see his ID in the course of buying alcohol. 

[AUDub 11,160]

1 minute ago, TitanTiger said:

Some of the required vaccines are for diseases less serious than COVID - mumps for instance.  Measles is more contagious but less deadly.  This argument doesn't hold.

Hell, the disease that probably caused the greatest panic "only" killed about 3000 in the course of its deadliest outbreak and paralyzed roughly 20000. 

[I_M4_AU 7,905]

19 hours ago, AUDub said:

Hell, the disease that probably caused the greatest panic "only" killed about 3000 in the course of its deadliest outbreak and paralyzed roughly 20000. 

You should ask your dad about hiding under your desk to prepare for a nuclear attack.  Americans have panicked over some insane things.

[AU9377 5,000]

21 hours ago, metafour said:

This cute analogy only works under the assumption that all vaccinations are the same and the illnesses they treat are the same severity - which they aren't. But expanding your own thought: did you carry around your children's vaccination records with you and flash them to gain entry into a grocery store? A library? A sporting event? No? Why not? So what point are you trying to make? The entire question is whether or not exclusion from BASIC human liberties through what would essentially become forced vaccination is a form of persecution. In your own counter-argument, you listed TWO "exclusions" that are already presidented - schools and universities. You are free to home-school your children, and no one is reliant on attending university to function in society - as such there is no real limitation and your point is moot. What is being QUESTIONED is a draconian caste system wherein those who choose not to receive this vaccine are excluded from society in whole. Maybe use some foresight and think of the precedent that this sets.

Where is that actually happening?

[MaxCohen216 514]

On 5/25/2021 at 12:13 PM, TitanTiger said:

For the love of all that is holy, can we stop comparing the asking of one's vaccination status to the apprehension and extermination of Jews by the Nazis?  It's a terrible analogy and it's insulting to put the two things on the same level.

Asking if you're vaccinated or restricting access to certain places to the vaccinated is not persecution.  

Well, no.

It most certainly IS persecution, if you are disallowed access to normal public places for refusing to take an experimental vaccine.

Because, according to the CDC, vaccinated people pose no threat to unvaccinated people. 

Anti-vaxxers have made their decision, just as vaccinated people have.  By now, all adults have had opportunity to take the vaccine, if they so choose.  So let the chips fall where they may.  This requires no proof of vaccination.

"Show me your papers" vs. "Show me your vaccine card".  Sounds like damn near the same thing to me.

[MaxCohen216 514]

On 5/25/2021 at 12:11 PM, TitanTiger said:

It's just not something that should be up to you.  It should be up to store owners.  Maybe they or one of their employees can't be vaccinated right now for specific health reasons, but they still need to work and pay their bills.  They depend on those who can get vaccinated to do so.  So if the owner wants to require that only vaccinated people come in for now, that should be their right.

BS.

If any store requires proof of vaccination, I will not shop there.  Neither will many of the people in this country who actually think.  Especially after the CDC has stated that vaccinated people pose no threat to the unvaccinated.

In my home state (Sweet Home Alabama), the governor has guaranteed that I will never have to show a vaccine passport for any reason.  As such, even though I have taken the vaccine, I threw my vaccine card in the trash.  Where it belongs.

[MaxCohen216 514]

On 5/25/2021 at 3:47 PM, TitanTiger said:

You mean like how you don't have the freedom to send your kids to a public school or university (and most private ones as well) without them getting a whole slate of vaccinations before they are admitted?  My child is headed to college this fall and just went to the doctor to get three different vaccines that are required before this fall.  Or how various employers can require certain vaccinations for anyone who wants to work for them?  Is that the kind of precious personal freedom we are in unprecedented danger of losing?

As far as those who know they've gotten COVID already, first that only affects about 10% of the US population right now.  That's no where near a majority of the folks squalling like a stuck pig about getting a vaccine. But second, a lot depends on when they got it.  If they were one of those who got it earlier last year, it's quite possible those antibodies are fading.  So a decent percentage of that 10% probably needs to step up and get a vaccine at this point.  

Finally, I know a lot of people don't really give a damn about anyone but themselves, but there are people out there who still have to live their lives - work, go to school, shop for necessities, etc. - that can't get the vaccine yet for health reasons.  They might be undergoing chemo or have other autoimmune issues.  Or they are too young to get it.  These people depend on the rest of us not spreading it to them when they have to venture out to do the things they have to do to live.  I've watched a friend of mine who's my age die from this, another friend my age be hospitalized and recover, and currently have another one fighting for their life in the hospital now and who probably has permanent lung damage that will eventually kill them in the next few years even if they get out of the hospital, not to mention numerous others that it waylaid for weeks who didn't get hospitalized.  This s*** is serious and people need to quit spreading bull**** about the vaccines, quit minimizing the disease and quit yelling about "BUT MUH FREEDDUMB" every time someone suggests it isn't always all about you.

How many of those required vaccines were "experimental"?  Do tell.

[TitanTiger 20,506]

50 minutes ago, MaxCohen216 said:

Well, no.

It most certainly IS persecution, if you are disallowed access to normal public places for refusing to take an experimental vaccine.

No, it is not. Not in the middle of a pandemic that has killed 3.4 million people worldwide and 370,000 in this country alone.  The vaccine was well tested with large test groups, and we now have over 1.6 BILLION people who've gotten it.  We have a pretty damn good track record to work with at this point.

At any rate, if the business owner wishes to implement such a requirement, it should be their right.

 

50 minutes ago, MaxCohen216 said:

Because, according to the CDC, vaccinated people pose no threat to unvaccinated people. 

That isn't the issue.  The issue is unvaccinated people posing a threat to each other as well as those who would get vaccinated but can't due to health issues that prevent them from doing so.

 

50 minutes ago, MaxCohen216 said:

Anti-vaxxers have made their decision, just as vaccinated people have.  By now, all adults have had opportunity to take the vaccine, if they so choose.  So let the chips fall where they may.  This requires no proof of vaccination.

It's not just about you.

 

50 minutes ago, MaxCohen216 said:

"Show me your papers" vs. "Show me your vaccine card".  Sounds like damn near the same thing to me.

Because you refuse to think critically.

[TitanTiger 20,506]

49 minutes ago, MaxCohen216 said:

BS.

If any store requires proof of vaccination, I will not shop there.  Neither will many of the people in this country who actually think.  Especially after the CDC has stated that vaccinated people pose no threat to the unvaccinated.

So what?  If they're making such a requirement for now, they've accounted for that.  If you want to come back after the requirement is over, great.  If not, go shop elsewhere.

And again, this thing about the vaccinated isn't relevant.  Some stores have people in them who can't be vaccinated - both workers who need to be able to make a living and customers who can't always stay at home.  They don't need anti-vax weirdos getting them sick because they can't be bothered to stop ingesting disinformation and conspiratorial bull****. 

 

49 minutes ago, MaxCohen216 said:

In my home state (Sweet Home Alabama), the governor has guaranteed that I will never have to show a vaccine passport for any reason.  As such, even though I have taken the vaccine, I threw my vaccine card in the trash.  Where it belongs.

We'll see.  It's possible that if cases start rising amongst the unvaccinated again things can change, or someone will take the state to court over it.

[TitanTiger 20,506]

53 minutes ago, MaxCohen216 said:

How many of those required vaccines were "experimental"?  Do tell.

Which steps of the typical vaccine development process were skipped for the COVID vaccines?  Let me help:  none.

These vaccines are not experimental.  No steps in the normal process of developing a vaccine were skipped.

COVID-19 vaccines are not experimental and they have not skipped trial stages 

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-covid-vaccines-idUSL1N2M70MW

And every new vaccine is "experimental" when it first goes to the general public.  Look up some of the early adverse reactions to the measles or polio vaccines for instance.

 

 

[MaxCohen216 514]

1 minute ago, TitanTiger said:

No, it is not. Not in the middle of a pandemic that has killed 3.4 million people worldwide and 370,000 in this country alone.  The vaccine was well tested with large test groups, and we now have over 1.6 BILLION people who've gotten it.  We have a pretty damn good track record to work with at this point.

At any rate, if the business owner wishes to implement such a requirement, it should be their right.

 

That isn't the issue.  The issue is unvaccinated people posing a threat to each other as well as those who would get vaccinated but can't due to health issues that prevent them from doing so.

 

It's not just about you.

 

Because you refuse to think critically.

Republican governors in many states disagree with you, and thankfully so.  I'm glad that my governor has guaranteed that no business in Alabama can require me to show proof of an experimental vaccine that has not been approved by the FDA.  Even though I took the vaccine, and personally believe in it.

As you said, it is not just about me.  I agree.  It is about the millions of people in this country who agree with me, and disagree with you.

Again, the CDC has stated that vaccinated people pose no threat to the unvaccinated.  And the unvaccinated have had plenty of time to get vaccinated.  So let the masks burn, along with vaccine cards.  As mine have (masks and vaccine card).

[TitanTiger 20,506]

1 minute ago, MaxCohen216 said:

Republican governors in many states disagree with you, and thankfully so.  I'm glad that my governor has guaranteed that no business in Alabama can require me to show proof of an experimental vaccine that has not been approved by the FDA.  Even though I took the vaccine, and personally believe in it.

I don't give a s*** what they think. 

 

1 minute ago, MaxCohen216 said:

As you said, it is not just about me.  I agree.  It is about the millions of people in this country who agree with me, and disagree with you.

And it's about the millions who can't get the vaccines that none of your group give a s*** about.

 

1 minute ago, MaxCohen216 said:

Again, the CDC has stated that vaccinated people pose no threat to the unvaccinated.  And the unvaccinated have had plenty of time to get vaccinated.  So let the masks burn, along with vaccine cards.  As mine have (masks and vaccine card).

Why do you keep repeating this line?  It's meaningless and I've never said otherwise.  I just told you that the issue is it continuing to spread amongst the brain dead anti-vaxxers and them getting people sick who for various reasons can't get the vaccine right now.

That doesn't even get into the issue of the anti-vax brigade continuing to supply fertile ground for the virus to mutate and develop more variants, which is just the most idiotic self-own and ****-you to everyone else I can imagine.
 

[MaxCohen216 514]

4 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

So what?  If they're making such a requirement for now, they've accounted for that.  If you want to come back after the requirement is over, great.  If not, go shop elsewhere.

And again, this thing about the vaccinated isn't relevant.  Some stores have people in them who can't be vaccinated - both workers who need to be able to make a living and customers who can't always stay at home.  They don't need anti-vax weirdos getting them sick because they can't be bothered to stop ingesting disinformation and conspiratorial bull****. 

 

We'll see.  It's possible that if cases start rising amongst the unvaccinated again things can change, or someone will take the state to court over it.

Some people are autoimmune, I get it.  But should the entire population continue to wear masks and accept social distancing indefinitely because a very small percentage of the population is autoimmune?  Hell no.

I can now walk freely into any store I normally peruse in Alabama without a mask or vaccine card.  And that freedom will continue, because thinking people have required it of their employees (i.e. the government officials who work for the people).

[TitanTiger 20,506]

1 minute ago, MaxCohen216 said:

Some people are autoimmune, I get it.  But should the entire population continue to wear masks and accept social distancing indefinitely because a very small percentage of the population is autoimmune?  Hell no.

No one suggested such.  But if a particular business wants to protect some of their workers for instance that they know can't get vaccinated right now, they should have that right.  It's not a blanket indefinite anything.  It's specific businesses doing what they feel is best for them, their workers and their customers.

 

 

[MaxCohen216 514]

3 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

I don't give a s*** what they think. 

 

And it's about the millions who can't get the vaccines that none of your group give a s*** about.

 

Why do you keep repeating this line?  It's meaningless and I've never said otherwise.  I just told you that the issue is it continuing to spread amongst the brain dead anti-vaxxers and them getting people sick who for various reasons can't get the vaccine right now.

That doesn't even get into the issue of the anti-vax brigade continuing to supply fertile ground for the virus to mutate and develop more variants, which is just the most idiotic self-own and ****-you to everyone else I can imagine.
 

When you throw down a blanket statement of "I don't give a ---- what they think", you are equating yourself to a Neanderthal who considers only their opinion as valid.  Before you ban me for calling you a Neanderthal, consider that you basically called me an idiot first.  Neanderthal.

The virus is experimental.  It is a personal choice whether to take it or not.  It is none of anybody's business who takes it or not.  And vaccine passports are stupid, and thankfully I will not have to show one when I enter Jordan Hare Stadium this fall.

[TitanTiger 20,506]

3 minutes ago, MaxCohen216 said:

When you throw down a blanket statement of "I don't give a ---- what they think", you are equating yourself to a Neanderthal who considers only their opinion as valid.  Before you ban me for calling you a Neanderthal, consider that you basically called me an idiot first.  Neanderthal.

I don't ban people for something so trivial, especially when I took the first shot.  Simmer down, Betty.

But regardless, I still don't care what GOP governors think.  I'm not really sure many of them actually do think anymore.  The sycophantic pandering to all things Trump disabused me of any notion that they are people whose opinions I should think deeply about.

 

Quote

The virus is experimental.  It is a personal choice whether to take it or not.  It is none of anybody's business who takes it or not.  And vaccine passports are stupid, and thankfully I will not have to show one when I enter Jordan Hare Stadium this fall.

I assume you meant the "vaccine" is experimental.  Perhaps you could enlighten us on how the development of this one skipped critical steps normal vaccines have to go through.

I mean, I'm glad you personally got the vaccine so it's irrelevant for you.  But all the selfish a**holes listening to Dr. Youtube and Nurse Facebook, refusing the vaccine and spreading bull**** about it are sorry people.

[MaxCohen216 514]

1 minute ago, TitanTiger said:

I don't ban people for something so trivial, especially when I took the first shot.  Simmer down, Betty.

But regardless, I still don't care what GOP governors think.  I'm not really sure many of them actually do think anymore.  The sycophantic pandering to all things Trump disabused me of any notion that they are people whose opinions I should think deeply about.

 

I mean, I'm glad you personally got the vaccine so it's irrelevant for you.  But all the selfish a**holes listening the Dr. Youtube and Nurse Facebook, refusing the vaccine and spreading bull**** about it are sorry people.

Betty?

Well, I see that you can call names as well as I can.  I just hope you can take it as well as you can dish it out.  We'll see, but I have my doubts.  Prove me wrong.

I agree that with the obvious (short term) success of the vaccine, it seems a no-brainer to take it.  But until the FDA formally approves it, I can't fault anyone for being skeptical.

[TitanTiger 20,506]

1 hour ago, MaxCohen216 said:

Betty?

Well, I see that you can call names as well as I can.  I just hope you can take it as well as you can dish it out.  We'll see, but I have my doubts.  Prove me wrong.

I agree that with the obvious (short term) success of the vaccine, it seems a no-brainer to take it.  But until the FDA formally approves it, I can't fault anyone for being skeptical.

So explain to me why anti-vaxxers get to be skeptical make a choice that doesn't just affect them but others adversely, but business owners don't get to make a choice to protect themselves or their employees.  Why should the personal choices of people who won't think of anyone else get to overrule the choices of those who will?

[AUDub 11,160]

10 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

You should ask your dad about hiding under your desk to prepare for a nuclear attack.  Americans have panicked over some insane things.

So we gonna go full "whataboutism" on Polio now?