DEI Programs

[TexasTiger 12,836]

I believe effective DEI programs are valuable. 
 

If you believe your organization’s program is effective, what makes it so? If you think it’s ineffective, what makes it so? Whether you think it’s largely effective or largely ineffective, how would you improve it?

[TexasTiger 12,836]

This is serious, a non-smack discussion, for those interested.

[AU9377 4,928]

I think it depends on the company/organization.  I have worked for a corporation that was very inclusive in the corporate office.  This company was a medium to large size franchise based food services company.  Minorities made up over 30% of our employees and minorities and women made up half of our executive leadership.  In house counsel consisted of 2 women and 3 men, with the senior counsel being female.

In that environment, spending time and money on a diversity/equity program would have been making an effort to find a problem where one did not exist.

I do believe that there are organizations where the program could benefit everyone.  Employees who are sometimes overlooked would get reassurance that they have the ability to advance their careers.  That creates an ownership interest and produces better employees.

[johnnyAU 3,630]

I do not believe DEI programs are valuable in some cases. However, I do believe in treating everyone fairly and giving everyone a fair opportunity.  That doesn't mean every company or every division within the company needs to mimic the population by percentage.  

Let's take STEM for instance. I'll use my field of Engineering in general, and Mechanical Engineering specifically. I've been in the field for 30+ years. It is no doubt largely made up of males, and quite dominantly of European and Asian descent. Is there some sort of combined cabal that gathers quarterly to ensure nobody else gets a chance at employment, or is the issue societal? Mechanical Engineering just doesn't appeal to many people. It's not glamorous. You likely won't ever get rich or famous. The curriculum is difficult. For decades, scientists and engineers have been depicted negatively in shows, movies, etc...as weak, unathletic, unattractive, nerds, geeks, freaks, etc... There is definitely a stigma attached to even pursuing it. It does not have a universal appeal, and many of the jobs associated with it are dirty or greasy, or deal with dangerous or heavy equipment.  The problem isn't on the back end and cannot be fixed from the back end. Forcing companies to fill positions based on race, gender, sex, sexual orientation, religious affiliation, etc... to meet some sort of desired target optics is absurd. The resumes aren't there to meet that quota. Nobody is stopping folks from entering the field of study or hiring them once they make it out.

Having said that, the issue is that the field just doesn't interest that many people. Engineering and science in general are universal, but not universally appealing. We want to get the job done, accurately and efficiently. We don't care who does the work. It does not matter the color of your skin, your gender, sex, age, etc... Can you or can you not do the work? If you cannot do the work yet, can you learn to do it? The more people, the more work gets done. The biggest obstacle I see is the inability to work effectively on teams. Unfortunately the personality types that find themselves attracted to these fields aren't necessarily known for social skills and communication and navigating that can be challenging.

I do think we can make this situation much better by trying to make the STEM field more inviting to more people. That starts early in elementary and middle schools. Make it fun. Demonstrate what can be done and how rewarding it can be. Maybe develop programs that can travel to different schools to show not only videos, but perhaps taking physical demos and let the students interact (in a safe way of course). There are more and more Maker Spaces popping up now that 3D printing has gotten cheaper and more accessible. Let's make those more available to more schools.  My wife, who is also in STEM, has already been volunteering with groups of inner city schools. I plan to as well when I get a few projects of my docket.  

Let's attack problems at the source. And for Pete's sake, let's stop telling all parents that they need to send their kids to college, and that's their only ticket to success. College has gotten so ungodly expensive these days. There are many training centers around that teach marketable skills for a lot less $$. You can go get training in robot programming, welding, machining, controls, fabrication, electrical, etc...You can be making good money when you leave without facing the next 10+ years paying back student loans. As the Baby Boomers and Gen X'ers retire, there is an increasing void of skilled resources available. This mess started when we began putting so much emphasis on college degrees and so little on technical education.  Another area we need to target early in elementary and middle school. 

 

[PUB78 1,358]

I am not a big fan of DEI. It divides people and judges them solely on race, not abilities, character, ambition, education and values.

I am sure most all of us on this forum have been taught and value Justice, equality, and fairness. A person should be judged by their character, not the color of their skin.

The current DEI promoted by the left, is really Division, Exclusion and Indoctrination.

[AU9377 4,928]

5 hours ago, johnnyAU said:

I do not believe DEI programs are valuable in some cases. However, I do believe in treating everyone fairly and giving everyone a fair opportunity.  That doesn't mean every company or every division within the company needs to mimic the population by percentage.  

Let's take STEM for instance. I'll use my field of Engineering in general, and Mechanical Engineering specifically. I've been in the field for 30+ years. It is no doubt largely made up of males, and quite dominantly of European and Asian descent. Is there some sort of combined cabal that gathers quarterly to ensure nobody else gets a chance at employment, or is the issue societal? Mechanical Engineering just doesn't appeal to many people. It's not glamorous. You likely won't ever get rich or famous. The curriculum is difficult. For decades, scientists and engineers have been depicted negatively in shows, movies, etc...as weak, unathletic, unattractive, nerds, geeks, freaks, etc... There is definitely a stigma attached to even pursuing it. It does not have a universal appeal, and many of the jobs associated with it are dirty or greasy, or deal with dangerous or heavy equipment.  The problem isn't on the back end and cannot be fixed from the back end. Forcing companies to fill positions based on race, gender, sex, sexual orientation, religious affiliation, etc... to meet some sort of desired target optics is absurd. The resumes aren't there to meet that quota. Nobody is stopping folks from entering the field of study or hiring them once they make it out.

Having said that, the issue is that the field just doesn't interest that many people. Engineering and science in general are universal, but not universally appealing. We want to get the job done, accurately and efficiently. We don't care who does the work. It does not matter the color of your skin, your gender, sex, age, etc... Can you or can you not do the work? If you cannot do the work yet, can you learn to do it? The more people, the more work gets done. The biggest obstacle I see is the inability to work effectively on teams. Unfortunately the personality types that find themselves attracted to these fields aren't necessarily known for social skills and communication and navigating that can be challenging.

I do think we can make this situation much better by trying to make the STEM field more inviting to more people. That starts early in elementary and middle schools. Make it fun. Demonstrate what can be done and how rewarding it can be. Maybe develop programs that can travel to different schools to show not only videos, but perhaps taking physical demos and let the students interact (in a safe way of course). There are more and more Maker Spaces popping up now that 3D printing has gotten cheaper and more accessible. Let's make those more available to more schools.  My wife, who is also in STEM, has already been volunteering with groups of inner city schools. I plan to as well when I get a few projects of my docket.  

Let's attack problems at the source. And for Pete's sake, let's stop telling all parents that they need to send their kids to college, and that's their only ticket to success. College has gotten so ungodly expensive these days. There are many training centers around that teach marketable skills for a lot less $$. You can go get training in robot programming, welding, machining, controls, fabrication, electrical, etc...You can be making good money when you leave without facing the next 10+ years paying back student loans. As the Baby Boomers and Gen X'ers retire, there is an increasing void of skilled resources available. This mess started when we began putting so much emphasis on college degrees and so little on technical education.  Another area we need to target early in elementary and middle school. 

 

Very well written, especially for an engineer.  I joke..... but that was a really insightful post.... and the pay isn't that bad.

[Mims44 1,867]

On 3/16/2023 at 4:05 PM, TexasTiger said:

I believe effective DEI programs are valuable. 
 

If you believe your organization’s program is effective, what makes it so? If you think it’s ineffective, what makes it so? Whether you think it’s largely effective or largely ineffective, how would you improve it?

Prolly shouldn't answer this after X amount of beers but 🤷‍♂️

Mine was a no, yes, yes.

I think we do it well, but others muck it up a good bit. If I had any problem with it, it's that no one wants to be open about it.

There's a decent chance I benefitted from this program when I was hired, but I'll never know since people are tight lipped about it. And now that I'm on hiring committees my SVs don't like that I do talk about it openly. White, and Asian men are everywhere, black men are only slightly... very slightly under that. Women however are hard to find, and finding a black woman is like finding a unicorn. In the three years I've been in a position to help choose a hire we've had one applicant for any position that was a black woman (thats total)... and she left after 6 months for a bigger job within our region.

 

But talking about that behind closed doors is not what got me into trouble...

We had an opening recently and I was telling a guy about it (black man) and I asked his degree, experience, certifications, etc. His girlfriend was with him at the cafeteria (black woman) and I asked if she was interested. She said she didn't have any of those prerequisites and I told her I didn't care, If she interviewed well we'd hire her. (Maybe I shouldn't have done it in front of her boyfriend, but still)

Even though what I said was 100% true, I'm catching crap from it. I don't get, and don't like that we can't be upfront about it. Why is it taboo to say out loud "Hey! are you a black woman? We will hire you and train you for this position! Apply now!"

[AURex 1,994]

It s extraordinarily important in the realm of education. The whole purpose of education is to prepare students for the avenues to success in the real world. This is especially important in higher ed.

JMO as an academic, of course.

 

[icanthearyou 4,462]

10 hours ago, AURex said:

The whole purpose of education is to prepare students for the avenues to success in the real world.

That's it?  That is the only reason to be educated? 

[icanthearyou 4,462]

Was education better when it was more socialized or,,, now that it has been financialized?

[AURex 1,994]

On 3/18/2023 at 9:45 AM, icanthearyou said:

That's it?  That is the only reason to be educated? 

Well, IMO, no. I am old school. I believe in the tremendous value of a great foundation in the liberal arts, even for STEM and business people. IMO, education in history, literature, philosophy, social sciences are the solid foundation for not only our cultural advancement, but for success in life.

That said, so much emphasis is placed of higher education as almost a "technical school" degree aimed at some notion of what employers might be looking for, all we see these days are a few required liberal arts courses thrown into curricula.

You and I are on the same wavelength, ican.  I'm sure you know that by now.

 

[icanthearyou 4,462]

40 minutes ago, AURex said:

Well, IMO, no. I am old school. I believe in the tremendous value of a great foundation in the liberal arts, even for STEM and business people. IMO, education in history, literature, philosophy, social sciences are the solid foundation for not only our cultural advancement, but for success in life.

That said, so much emphasis is placed of higher education as almost a "technical school" degree aimed at some notion of what employers might be looking for, all we see these days are a few required liberal arts courses thrown into curricula.

You and I are on the same wavelength, ican.  I'm sure you know that by now.

 

Agree.  My point is this,,, the more we make "education" about potential productivity, the more we become a people who are trained, not truly educated. 

We still have great personal freedoms but, our civic freedoms are compromised by our lack of real education.  We do not understand our founding, our history, our economy, our politics.  No wonder why our political discourse has devolved into what it is today.  No wonder we have allowed a very few to seize control of our society.  No wonder that democracy doesn't exist here anymore.

[TexasTiger 12,836]

DEI Director who was fired shares her experience:

https://compactmag.com/article/a-black-dei-director-canceled-by-dei

[johnnyAU 3,630]

10 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

DEI Director who was fired shares her experience:

https://compactmag.com/article/a-black-dei-director-canceled-by-dei

That's disheartening

[alexava 6,973]

You folks need some Jordan Peterson in your lives. 

[TexasTiger 12,836]

20 hours ago, alexava said:

You folks need some Jordan Peterson in your lives. 

That dude’s a mess. 

[GoAU 1,600]

I was in a prior company that was very heavy into DEI.  As a matter of fact, the first question asked of a hiring manager when interviewing candidates was NOT is the candidate fully qualified, do they have relevant experience or skills, etc. but instead the first question asked was “is it a DIVERSE candidate?”.   Now, when you ask what diverse means, it is essentially anything other than a heterosexual, white male.   Maybe it’s just me, but if you want to breed racial / social animosity keep telling people they didn’t get a job not because they weren’t qualified, but because they were the wrong race.   
 

I’m 100% positive some people here will try to label this as a racist statement, but treating people truly as equals means no preferential treatment for any group.   For us all to be the same (i.e. “equal”)  we all must be treated equally.  The simple litmus test should just be, if you change race, gender, sexual preference, etc with another group in a statement or decision, if it sounds wrong, it is.  
 

What is kind of amusing is that I met with the DEI Director of my prior company and she praised me for having the “most diverse” staff in the company.  I just laughed and said I just hire the best qualified candidates, regardless of DEI and the chips fall where they do.  Her look was priceless.   

Judge a man not by the color of his skin, but by the content of his character.  

[TexasTiger 12,836]

22 hours ago, GoAU said:

I was in a prior company that was very heavy into DEI.  As a matter of fact, the first question asked of a hiring manager when interviewing candidates was NOT is the candidate fully qualified, do they have relevant experience or skills, etc. but instead the first question asked was “is it a DIVERSE candidate?”.   Now, when you ask what diverse means, it is essentially anything other than a heterosexual, white male.   Maybe it’s just me, but if you want to breed racial / social animosity keep telling people they didn’t get a job not because they weren’t qualified, but because they were the wrong race.   
 

I’m 100% positive some people here will try to label this as a racist statement, but treating people truly as equals means no preferential treatment for any group.   For us all to be the same (i.e. “equal”)  we all must be treated equally.  The simple litmus test should just be, if you change race, gender, sexual preference, etc with another group in a statement or decision, if it sounds wrong, it is.  
 

What is kind of amusing is that I met with the DEI Director of my prior company and she praised me for having the “most diverse” staff in the company.  I just laughed and said I just hire the best qualified candidates, regardless of DEI and the chips fall where they do.  Her look was priceless.   

Judge a man not by the color of his skin, but by the content of his character.  

Of course the most qualified candidate should be selected. But when folks only hire those networked with existing staff, the pool may be more homogeneous. Efforts need to be made to attract a diverse pool of candidates who are treated fairly. THEN hire the candidate most apt to advance the organization. Most businesses benefit from a variety of perspectives, however, and at a given point in time, the experiences a person brings to the team may strengthen that team more than another otherwise qualified person who may not add as much to the team (i.e. may be largely indistinguishable from someone already on it).

[icanthearyou 4,462]

On 4/6/2023 at 4:27 PM, GoAU said:

Judge a man not by the color of his skin, but by the content of his character.  

Too bad we do not live in a country that has a history of doing that.

[GoAU 1,600]

6 hours ago, icanthearyou said:

Too bad we do not live in a country that has a history of doing that.

Certainly there have been very dark periods in our history, but also a lot of very good ones.   And it’s still the best country on Earth.   

[autigeremt 6,601]

On 4/7/2023 at 5:07 PM, icanthearyou said:

Too bad we do not live in a country that has a history of doing that.

Not many do. Some just choose to ignore history unless it fits a narrative. Where in the hell did ours come from? Sure wasn't from my native roots. 

[Mikey 16,579]

On 3/17/2023 at 7:28 PM, Mims44 said:

finding a black woman is like finding a unicorn.

I had an office in which I hired three people at different times. Hiring the best candidate each time, I hired three black women. Of course, the office being located in Tuskegee helped. There's a solid pool of educated, capable black women in Macon County but that's not the situation everywhere.

[CoffeeTiger 5,103]

On 4/5/2023 at 6:12 PM, alexava said:

You folks need some Jordan Peterson in your lives. 

 

IMO He's either mentally ill and not receiving help or he never got clean off those drugs like he claims.  

 

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As for the topic, I'm decidedly neutral. I've yet to be apart of an organization that had or advertised any sort of DEI program. Maybe there was some sort of DEI training in the HR/recruitment department, but I don't know and I've never been trained on it. 

So its impossible for me to really say if I think the programs are useful for most organizations or not. I like and agree with the ideas and theory of DEI, but i think its important to get it right and not end up creating more resentment between different racial/cultural/lifestyle groups than already exist. 

I'm sure DEI CAN be done very well, but I don't know if most organizations do it well or not. 

[alexava 6,973]

5 hours ago, CoffeeTiger said:

 

IMO He's either mentally ill and not receiving help or he never got clean off those drugs like he claims.  

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for the topic, I'm decidedly neutral. I've yet to be apart of an organization that had or advertised any sort of DEI program. Maybe there was some sort of DEI training in the HR/recruitment department, but I don't know and I've never been trained on it. 

So its impossible for me to really say if I think the programs are useful for most organizations or not. I like and agree with the ideas and theory of DEI, but i think its important to get it right and not end up creating more resentment between different racial/cultural/lifestyle groups than already exist. 

I'm sure DEI CAN be done very well, but I don't know if most organizations do it well or not. 

I have had diversity training at every corporation I worked for. Never offensive or  controversial. I actually learned from it. Been 12 or so years or whenever Sylvester Croom was at Moo st. Cause I wrote my assignment (one page report) on him. Former coworker who moved to different industries told me 2 or 3 years ago they had this but based off CRT. White people and black separated in the room. At some point into this very controversial bs, one white person and one black person would be called to the front with 25-30 people watching and the white person was to apologize for being white, literally. In their words ask for forgiveness. 
        People started hearing about how this was going because they took like 30 per class and there were hundreds of employees. So months planned. Anyway people went to corporate and said they were not going to be a part of this bs. So they totally dropped it. ( this might be about the time trump banned it) This was a very well known defense contractor. 

[alexava 6,973]

5 hours ago, CoffeeTiger said:

 

IMO He's either mentally ill and not receiving help or he never got clean off those drugs like he claims.  

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for the topic, I'm decidedly neutral. I've yet to be apart of an organization that had or advertised any sort of DEI program. Maybe there was some sort of DEI training in the HR/recruitment department, but I don't know and I've never been trained on it. 

So its impossible for me to really say if I think the programs are useful for most organizations or not. I like and agree with the ideas and theory of DEI, but i think its important to get it right and not end up creating more resentment between different racial/cultural/lifestyle groups than already exist. 

I'm sure DEI CAN be done very well, but I don't know if most organizations do it well or not. 

Jordan Peterson is awesome. Nobody ever walks away from a debate with him and still has their dignity.