FBI Ignores Congressional Subpoena

[icanthearyou 4,463]

5 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

Sometimes you are sssooo funny. Most American Voters now believe that to be a false story.

Only die-hard Dems still believe it is true.

Yes, don't believe what you actually see and hear. 

[AURex 2,019]

13 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

These documents are lying around every office in Dc it would seem. We have no document control except when it is embarrassing to some pol in DC.

"every office in Dc"? Evidence please. Provide a link to one legitimate source that reports this. Not some fringe conspiracy blog/rant/podcast. A legit news source. "every office in Dc."

 

 

[Son of A Tiger 561]

After being threatened with contempt of Congress, FBI Director Wray says they will bring requested document to Congress on Monday. Why couldn't he just cooperate to start with and avoid the bad image the FBI received?

 

FBI to bring Biden document to Capitol Hill Monday, after threats to hold Wray in contempt of Congress (msn.com)

[DKW 86 7,431]

19 hours ago, homersapien said:

Those were quotes David, not claims.

And it was an incomplete list. 

For example:  ‘Well, we don’t rely on American banks. We have all the funding we need out of Russia.’  (Eric Trump)

https://thehill.com/homenews/news/332270-eric-trump-in-2014-we-dont-rely-on-american-banks-we-have-all-the-funding-we/

And just because Mueller didn't indict Trump specifically for (legal) "collusion" with Russia in the election, doesn't mean Russia didn't assist the Trump campaign, which they welcomed. 

And it certainly doesn't mean there are plenty of other secret ties between Trump, Putin and Russia.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/03/connections-trump-putin-russia-ties-chart-flynn-page-manafort-sessions-214868/

https://time.com/4433880/donald-trump-ties-to-russia/

You are more interested in trying to demonstrate iconoclastic neutrality regarding this than you are in seeing the truth.

 

And again, you missed the point, like always. The American people have listened to so much BS over the years that most, Reps and Indies and even some Dems, now think it was all BS. 

[DKW 86 7,431]

19 hours ago, icanthearyou said:

Yes, don't believe what you actually see and hear. 

The American People are believing exactly what they see and hear. So far they have seen and heard nothing that comes remotely close to T, S, and C.

[DKW 86 7,431]

10 hours ago, AURex said:

"every office in Dc"? Evidence please. Provide a link to one legitimate source that reports this. Not some fringe conspiracy blog/rant/podcast. A legit news source. "every office in Dc."

 

Classified Docs at Penn-Piden, at multiple homes, from multiple eras. If 50 years in office and you cant handle classified docs any better, he needs to have a trip to Leavenworth...

https://www.npr.org/2022/10/17/1129416671/chelsea-manning-wikileaks-memoir-readme

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/edward-snowden-discloses-u-s-government-operations

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/air-force-halts-intelligence-mission-suspected-classified-document-lea-rcna80379

https://www.archives.gov/research/recover/notable-thefts.html

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/more-biden-documents-marked-classified-two-other-locations/

https://people.com/politics/biden-surprised-classified-obama-era-documents-found-former-d-c-office/

https://www.npr.org/2023/01/09/1147977922/classified-documents-biden-doj-archives

[homersapien 11,393]

4 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

And again, you missed the point, like always. The American people have listened to so much BS over the years that most, Reps and Indies and even some Dems, now think it was all BS. 

You just described yourself. Which was my point. 

You are determined to believe there's nothing there.  And you apparently have a compulsion to disparage those who think differently in service of your need to feel superior.

 

[homersapien 11,393]

13 hours ago, Son of A Tiger said:

After being threatened with contempt of Congress, FBI Director Wray says they will bring requested document to Congress on Monday. Why couldn't he just cooperate to start with and avoid the bad image the FBI received?

 

FBI to bring Biden document to Capitol Hill Monday, after threats to hold Wray in contempt of Congress (msn.com)

1. He laid out his reasons not to relinquish the documents.

2. He offered to the "investigators" the opportunity to come and read the documents.

3. He is now apparently offering to bring the documents to them to read.

This is nothing more than political theater.  Republicans are "flooding the zone with s***" for nothing more than creating a perception of FBI intransigence. 

 

[homersapien 11,393]

4 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

Classified Docs at Penn-Piden, at multiple homes, from multiple eras. If 50 years in office and you cant handle classified docs any better, he needs to have a trip to Leavenworth...

 

Yes, apparently our classification system needs an overhaul.  For starters WAY too much stuff is classified.

But - like it or not - intent is a key component in judging one's culpability to a legal sanction for possessing such documents.    Get back to us when you have evidence that Biden had criminal intent.

(As opposed to Trump, who's intent was recently revealed.)

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/trump-caught-tape-admitting-kept-214418533.html?fr=yhssrp_catchall

Trump Caught On Tape Admitting He Kept Classified Docs: Report

 

[Son of A Tiger 561]

Former FBI agent sound off about problems.

Former FBI agent sounds off on 'drastic' shift in bureau: 'People are terrified' | Fox Business

[TexasTiger 12,964]

On 5/25/2023 at 5:29 AM, DKW 86 said:

And it all benefits Joe Biden, so there's that...

That is the most demented BS I think I ever read. What is it that the NYT says? Democracy dies in darkness? See anyone in the press trying to get the info out? 

The Washington Post says that.

[DKW 86 7,431]

6 hours ago, homersapien said:

You just described yourself. Which was my point. 

You are determined to believe there's nothing there.  And you apparently have a compulsion to disparage those who think differently in service of your need to feel superior.

Again wrong. You and your kind refuse to see what most of the REST of America has easily seen. You are the anomaly. You are the enigma. You are the outlier. See the Harvard-Harris Poll.

Edited June 2, 2023 by DKW 86

[DKW 86 7,431]

6 hours ago, homersapien said:

Yes, apparently our classification system needs an overhaul.  For starters WAY too much stuff is classified.

But - like it or not - intent is a key component in judging one's culpability to a legal sanction for possessing such documents.    Get back to us when you have evidence that Biden had criminal intent.

(As opposed to Trump, who's intent was recently revealed.)

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/trump-caught-tape-admitting-kept-214418533.html?fr=yhssrp_catchall

Trump Caught On Tape Admitting He Kept Classified Docs: Report

 

The law is absent intent. That is a figment of your imagination. While you may seem to think that intent matters, it doesn't. Possession of classified documents is illegal. PERIOD.

Intent matters nothing.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1924

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/798

 

[DKW 86 7,431]

6 hours ago, homersapien said:

Yes, apparently our classification system needs an overhaul.  For starters WAY too much stuff is classified.

But - like it or not - intent is a key component in judging one's culpability to a legal sanction for possessing such documents.    Get back to us when you have evidence that Biden had criminal intent.

(As opposed to Trump, who's intent was recently revealed.)

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/trump-caught-tape-admitting-kept-214418533.html?fr=yhssrp_catchall

Trump Caught On Tape Admitting He Kept Classified Docs: Report

You keep saying that I am fond of trump I am not, at all. Is anyone surprised at this one? I am not.

[homersapien 11,393]

17 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

Again wrong. You and your kind refuse to see what most of the REST of America has easily seen. You are the anomaly. You are the enigma. You are the outlier. See the Harvard-Harris Poll.

So, in your mind, facts and ultimate truth determined by popular opinion?

Strange, that's the least iconoclastic thing you've asserted.  Typically, you are the only one who knows the truth. 

[homersapien 11,393]

17 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

The law is absent intent. That is a figment of your imagination. While you may seem to think that intent matters, it doesn't. Possession of classified documents is illegal. PERIOD.

Intent matters nothing.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1924

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/798

 

You are a fool if you think the government is going to prosecute anyone for having a classified document without intent.  Maybe a low level soldier, but certainly not a member of congress or politician who might possess such documents as a function of their job.

Now if they find they do have one, and immediately fail to disclose it, that's a different matter.  That shows intent to violate the law.

Edited June 3, 2023 by homersapien

[DKW 86 7,431]

30 minutes ago, homersapien said:

So, in your mind, facts and ultimate truth determined by popular opinion?

Strange, that's the least iconoclastic thing you've asserted.  Typically, you are the only one who knows the truth. 

Swing...and a miss...

Nope I didnt think there was anything to it because people I trusted said plainly that there was nothing to it. 

You see, I was right when everyone else was wrong. And I am still right now that most of America NOW AGREES WITH ME. I stood my ground, knowing I was right. I was not swayed by popular opinion. I am reveling in knowing that I am now validated.

Edited June 3, 2023 by DKW 86

[DKW 86 7,431]

35 minutes ago, homersapien said:

You are a fool if you think the government is going to prosecute anyone for having a classified document without intent.  Maybe a low level soldier, but certainly not a member of congress or politician who might possess such documents as a function of their job.

Now if they find they do have one, and immediately fail to disclose it, that's a different matter.  That shows intent to violate the law.

What do you want me to say? Yes, thousands of enlisted people handle NOFORN, CONFIDENTIAL, SECRET, TOP SECRET, etc material all the time and never mishandle a document.
Your answer is genuinely: "Dave you are stupid if you don't know that everyone in DC has a second set of laws just for them." 

Do I know about this? Sure. Everyone does. Is it DEMOCRATIC? Is it good for a DEMOCRACY to have set of rules and laws depending on the social caste of the accused? We all know the answer is no. 

But back to your silly statement. I addressed the LAW. The law says possession of a document is a crime. Snowden, Manning, Texeira all are in possession of documents that have them either in jail or going to jail, etc.

Their intent was to inform the world of bad actors that were up to no good. So, I guess Intent really is in the eye of the beholder. 

 

Edited June 3, 2023 by DKW 86

[homersapien 11,393]

1 hour ago, DKW 86 said:

Swing...and a miss...

Nope I didnt think there was anything to it because people I trusted said plainly that there was nothing to it. 

You see, I was right when everyone else was wrong. And I am still right now that most of America NOW AGREES WITH ME. I stood my ground, knowing I was right. I was not swayed by popular opinion. I am reveling in knowing that I am now validated.

You post one thing and then claim you didn't say it.   (I am not surprised.)

You clearly stated popular opinion as justification for a factual argument you were making (which was not factual at all).

 

[homersapien 11,393]

On 6/3/2023 at 12:27 PM, DKW 86 said:

What do you want me to say? Yes, thousands of enlisted people handle NOFORN, CONFIDENTIAL, SECRET, TOP SECRET, etc material all the time and never mishandle a document.
Your answer is genuinely: "Dave you are stupid if you don't know that everyone in DC has a second set of laws just for them." 

Do I know about this? Sure. Everyone does. Is it DEMOCRATIC? Is it good for a DEMOCRACY to have set of rules and laws depending on the social caste of the accused? We all know the answer is no. 

But back to your silly statement. I addressed the LAW. The law says possession of a document is a crime. Snowden, Manning, Texeira all are in possession of documents that have them either in jail or going to jail, etc.

Their intent was to inform the world of bad actors that were up to no good. So, I guess Intent really is in the eye of the beholder. 

 

You think Trump should get off free from what he did?

Do you see any difference between Biden's, Pence's and Trump's actions?

 

Edited June 4, 2023 by homersapien

[icanthearyou 4,463]

On 6/2/2023 at 6:12 AM, DKW 86 said:

The American People are believing exactly what they see and hear. So far they have seen and heard nothing that comes remotely close to T, S, and C.

That is not the point.  The point is,,, too many signs were there, the implications to national security demanded investigation.  And, whether you and the political right want to acknowledge it or not, the investigation began focused on Russian interference.  Even the Trump DOJ continued on with the investigation under special counsel. 

[autigeremt 6,652]

It doesn’t matter DKW. It’s a waste of time. The country is failing the people and the clock is ticking. Get a drink and enjoy the remaining years of the current US. 

[GoAU 1,600]

On 6/2/2023 at 12:04 PM, homersapien said:

Yes, apparently our classification system needs an overhaul.  For starters WAY too much stuff is classified.

But - like it or not - intent is a key component in judging one's culpability to a legal sanction for possessing such documents.    Get back to us when you have evidence that Biden had criminal intent.

(As opposed to Trump, who's intent was recently revealed.)

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/trump-caught-tape-admitting-kept-214418533.html?fr=yhssrp_catchall

Trump Caught On Tape Admitting He Kept Classified Docs: Report

 

Intent, isn't really relevant, neither is ignorance.  But regardless of that, do you really believe Biden didn't have intent?  You've got boxes of classified documents in your garage and multiple offices for YEARS and don't know?   Even if he didn't (he most certainly DID0, would that make it better or worse.  And before you go down the "what about Trump" path again - I have never defended the actions he took around the documents either.   The same course of actions should apply for both - disclose (within reason) what the documents were.   I don't mean disclose the documents themselves, but what they were about should more than suffice - generic, high level examples.

 

[homersapien 11,393]

On 6/3/2023 at 3:06 PM, GoAU said:

Intent, isn't really relevant, neither is ignorance.  But regardless of that, do you really believe Biden didn't have intent?  You've got boxes of classified documents in your garage and multiple offices for YEARS and don't know?   Even if he didn't (he most certainly DID0, would that make it better or worse.  And before you go down the "what about Trump" path again - I have never defended the actions he took around the documents either.   The same course of actions should apply for both - disclose (within reason) what the documents were.   I don't mean disclose the documents themselves, but what they were about should more than suffice - generic, high level examples.

 

The following article summarizes what I know about the Biden document case (emphasis mine):

Here's what we know about the classified documents found at Biden's home and office

Updated January 14, 2023

 

President Biden is facing a Department of Justice investigation after his lawyers found classified documents at his Delaware residence and an office in Washington, D.C.

They were found in multiple instances, with a White House lawyer announcing on Saturday that five more pages had been found at Biden's home.

On Thursday, Attorney General Merrick Garland appointed former Justice Department official Robert Hur to lead the DOJ probe.

"This appointment underscores for the public the department's commitment to both independence and accountability in particularly sensitive matters, and to making decisions indisputably guided only by the facts and the law," Garland said Thursday.

The announcement came just a few days after news broke that classified documents had been found at Biden's private office less than a week before the midterm elections in November — a discovery that led the DOJ to launch an initial inquiry.

The White House has said it has cooperated with the DOJ during its review and plans to continue working with Hur's special counsel investigation.

"We are confident that a thorough review will show that these documents were inadvertently misplaced, and the president and his lawyers acted promptly upon discovery of this mistake," said Richard Sauber, a White House lawyer, in a statement.

Here's what we know about the Biden documents so far:

On four occasions, classified documents were found at Biden's private residence and a D.C. office he used before becoming president.

Early last November, Biden's personal lawyers were packing files from an office he had in Washington for his work at the Penn Biden Center for Diplomacy and Global Engagement, a think-tank founded by the University of Pennsylvania.

There, in a "locked closet," the White House said, they discovered some classified files that should not have been there. The documents were turned over to the National Archives.

Then, on Nov. 4, the National Archives inspector general informed the Department of Justice of the discovery. By mid-November, Garland had tapped John Lausch, a Trump-appointed U.S. Attorney in Chicago, to oversee an assessment of the materials.

On Dec. 20, Biden's personal counsel Robert Bauer informed Lausch that another set of documents had been found that day in the garage of Biden's private home in Wilmington, Del. Those documents were soon secured by the FBI.

On Jan. 11 — two days after CBS News broke a story about the documents — Biden's personal attorneys searched his homes in Wilmington and Rehoboth Beach. They found one classified document at Biden's Wilmington home.

On Thursday, the White House described the review as being over. "The search is complete," White House press secretary Karine Jean-Pierre told reporters.

But on Saturday, Sauber, the White House lawyer, said he had found five more pages at Biden's Wilmington home on Thursday when he was working with DOJ officials to hand over what he had days earlier described as one final page of classified material.

The White House says it was unintentional and that they will cooperate fully.

Biden has said that he takes the handling of classified information seriously and that he is "cooperating fully and completely" with the Justice Department.

The White House has said Biden does not know the content of the documents.

Still, the White House was hardly forthcoming about the existence of a second set of documents. When it confirmed the first discovery in the D.C. office, there was no mention of the second batch recovered in Delaware. It was only after news reports that revealed the later discovery did the White House acknowledge it.

On Saturday, Sauber explained that Biden's personal lawyers — led by Bob Bauer — had been conducting the searches of Biden's home. Those lawyers did not have security clearances. So when they had found a classified document on Wednesday, they stopped searching that area, he said.

It wasn't until Thursday evening when Sauber, who has a security clearance, went to Wilmington with DOJ officials to give them the final document that they found five additional pages of classified materials, he said.

We don't know what was in the documents, or how many were found.

The documents are classified, so they have not been publicly described, beyond that they were records that dated to Biden's time as vice president during the Obama administration.

A special counsel will oversee the investigation.

On Thursday, Attorney General Garland appointed a special counsel to take charge of the DOJ's investigation, calling the events "extraordinary circumstances." The investigation will be conducted following the department's rules, but the special counsel operates independently of day-to-day oversight from the Justice Department — an arrangement designed to avoid even the suggestion of interference.

Hur, the special counsel, is a longtime prosecutor who served as U.S. attorney for the District of Maryland from 2018 to 2021, at the appointment of then-President Donald Trump. He has previously worked on a variety of national security, public corruption and corporate fraud cases.

The Hur appointment follows Garland's decision last November to tap former war crimes prosecutor Jack Smith as special counsel in a pair of cases involving Trump, including his handling of classified documents at Mar-a-Lago.

Critics have accused Biden of hypocrisy and say he should have acknowledged the discovery sooner.

Critics of Biden, including many Republicans, have seized on the revelations to raise new complaints about the Biden administration's handling of the Trump classified document saga, including the FBI raid of Mar-a-Lago.

"Another faux pas by the Biden administration by treating law differently based upon your political beliefs. Treats President Trump one way but treats President Biden a whole different way," said Republican House Speaker Kevin McCarthy in a press conference Thursday.

McCarthy and others have also said that Biden should have disclosed the discovery sooner: The first documents were discovered on Nov. 2, just six days before last fall's midterm elections.

Republicans have already vowed to use their new House majority to probe Biden's handling of the classified documents and how federal agencies responded.

On Friday, Republican House Judiciary members sent a letter to the attorney general announcing their inquiry into the handling of the documents and the appointment of Hur. Rep. Jim Jordan, R-Ohio, chair of the House Judiciary Committee, and Rep. Mike Johnson, R-La., demanded "all documents and communications" between the DOJ, FBI and White House related to the "mishandling of the classified documents" and the appointment of the special counsel.

There are parallels with the Trump classified documents saga, but the two situations are not identical.

The Presidential Records Act requires that all presidential (and vice presidential) documents be turned over to the National Archives upon the end of an administration. Other rules govern the storage of classified documents.

Now, both presidents have run afoul of those rules.

But from what we know so far, there are already important differences between how the two have handled their respective situations.

In Trump's case, the National Archives was the first to identify the missing documents and request their return.

Trump initially resisted returning them, and his lawyers at times misled federal investigators. After months of back-and-forth between the government and Trump aides, 15 boxes of documents were returned in January 2022. According to the FBI, the boxes included 184 classified documents, including 25 marked "Top Secret," as well as others denoted with labels indicating they contained national security information, such as "FISA." But more documents still remained at Mar-a-Lago, and ultimately the FBI raided the resort in August to retrieve the rest.

By contrast, Biden's team appears to have found a smaller number of documents, and returned them to the federal government promptly.

Still, the revelations about improperly stored documents and the appointment of a special counsel are an "embarrassment" to the Biden administration, said Leon Panetta, who served as White House chief of staff during the Clinton administration and as secretary of defense under President Obama.

"It's both an embarrassment and damaging to the credibility of the White House, because obviously the president has criticized former president Trump and the way he handled classified documents at Mar-a-Lago," Panetta said in an interview with NPR.

https://www.npr.org/2023/01/14/1149071576/biden-classified-documents-what-we-know

 

But to answer your question directly, yes, I believe it is very possible that Biden had these documents in his possession without realizing it.  Now that can be fairly characterized as extremely careless or even incompetent - but, as we are seeing - it is apparently not uncommon.

Former presidents and vice-presidents accumulate tons of paper they preserve for whatever reasons, typically for books or libraries.  Apparently, there has been in general, a lack of process to monitor this process.  That needs to be addressed.

Heck, I would be willing to believe the same "carelessness excuse" about Trump, except for 1) all of the new information associated with his case that has emerged and 2) his refusal to comply with the government's request to return them.

Anyway, regarding Biden, there has been nothing to suggest he had any sort of nefarious intent to possess these documents. 

(One would assume that had he intended to keep them, they would have been a lot more organized and protected instead of just scattered around as they apparently were. And if these documents are "years old", what was his intent in the first place?)

More importantly, Biden didn't hesitate to volunteer their existence to the appropriate authorities when discovered and willingly returned them. 

So I say let the investigations do their work in all of these cases.  Hopefully, we'll learn a lot more about exactly what these documents contained as well as addressing the issue of intent in each case.

And if you don't think intent is relevant both from a legal and a political standpoint, just wait.

Meanwhile if you are interested in pursuing that question, here's an interesting piece that discusses it:

https://scholarship.law.wm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3588&context=wmlr

Edited June 4, 2023 by homersapien

[GoAU 1,600]

20 minutes ago, homersapien said:

The following article summarizes what I know about the Biden document case (emphasis mine):

Here's what we know about the classified documents found at Biden's home and office

Updated January 14, 2023

 

President Biden is facing a Department of Justice investigation after his lawyers found classified documents at his Delaware residence and an office in Washington, D.C.

They were found in multiple instances, with a White House lawyer announcing on Saturday that five more pages had been found at Biden's home.

On Thursday, Attorney General Merrick Garland appointed former Justice Department official Robert Hur to lead the DOJ probe.

"This appointment underscores for the public the department's commitment to both independence and accountability in particularly sensitive matters, and to making decisions indisputably guided only by the facts and the law," Garland said Thursday.

The announcement came just a few days after news broke that classified documents had been found at Biden's private office less than a week before the midterm elections in November — a discovery that led the DOJ to launch an initial inquiry.

The White House has said it has cooperated with the DOJ during its review and plans to continue working with Hur's special counsel investigation.

"We are confident that a thorough review will show that these documents were inadvertently misplaced, and the president and his lawyers acted promptly upon discovery of this mistake," said Richard Sauber, a White House lawyer, in a statement.

Here's what we know about the Biden documents so far:

On four occasions, classified documents were found at Biden's private residence and a D.C. office he used before becoming president.

Early last November, Biden's personal lawyers were packing files from an office he had in Washington for his work at the Penn Biden Center for Diplomacy and Global Engagement, a think-tank founded by the University of Pennsylvania.

There, in a "locked closet," the White House said, they discovered some classified files that should not have been there. The documents were turned over to the National Archives.

Then, on Nov. 4, the National Archives inspector general informed the Department of Justice of the discovery. By mid-November, Garland had tapped John Lausch, a Trump-appointed U.S. Attorney in Chicago, to oversee an assessment of the materials.

On Dec. 20, Biden's personal counsel Robert Bauer informed Lausch that another set of documents had been found that day in the garage of Biden's private home in Wilmington, Del. Those documents were soon secured by the FBI.

On Jan. 11 — two days after CBS News broke a story about the documents — Biden's personal attorneys searched his homes in Wilmington and Rehoboth Beach. They found one classified document at Biden's Wilmington home.

On Thursday, the White House described the review as being over. "The search is complete," White House press secretary Karine Jean-Pierre told reporters.

But on Saturday, Sauber, the White House lawyer, said he had found five more pages at Biden's Wilmington home on Thursday when he was working with DOJ officials to hand over what he had days earlier described as one final page of classified material.

The White House says it was unintentional and that they will cooperate fully.

Biden has said that he takes the handling of classified information seriously and that he is "cooperating fully and completely" with the Justice Department.

The White House has said Biden does not know the content of the documents.

Still, the White House was hardly forthcoming about the existence of a second set of documents. When it confirmed the first discovery in the D.C. office, there was no mention of the second batch recovered in Delaware. It was only after news reports that revealed the later discovery did the White House acknowledge it.

On Saturday, Sauber explained that Biden's personal lawyers — led by Bob Bauer — had been conducting the searches of Biden's home. Those lawyers did not have security clearances. So when they had found a classified document on Wednesday, they stopped searching that area, he said.

It wasn't until Thursday evening when Sauber, who has a security clearance, went to Wilmington with DOJ officials to give them the final document that they found five additional pages of classified materials, he said.

We don't know what was in the documents, or how many were found.

The documents are classified, so they have not been publicly described, beyond that they were records that dated to Biden's time as vice president during the Obama administration.

A special counsel will oversee the investigation.

On Thursday, Attorney General Garland appointed a special counsel to take charge of the DOJ's investigation, calling the events "extraordinary circumstances." The investigation will be conducted following the department's rules, but the special counsel operates independently of day-to-day oversight from the Justice Department — an arrangement designed to avoid even the suggestion of interference.

Hur, the special counsel, is a longtime prosecutor who served as U.S. attorney for the District of Maryland from 2018 to 2021, at the appointment of then-President Donald Trump. He has previously worked on a variety of national security, public corruption and corporate fraud cases.

The Hur appointment follows Garland's decision last November to tap former war crimes prosecutor Jack Smith as special counsel in a pair of cases involving Trump, including his handling of classified documents at Mar-a-Lago.

Critics have accused Biden of hypocrisy and say he should have acknowledged the discovery sooner.

Critics of Biden, including many Republicans, have seized on the revelations to raise new complaints about the Biden administration's handling of the Trump classified document saga, including the FBI raid of Mar-a-Lago.

"Another faux pas by the Biden administration by treating law differently based upon your political beliefs. Treats President Trump one way but treats President Biden a whole different way," said Republican House Speaker Kevin McCarthy in a press conference Thursday.

McCarthy and others have also said that Biden should have disclosed the discovery sooner: The first documents were discovered on Nov. 2, just six days before last fall's midterm elections.

Republicans have already vowed to use their new House majority to probe Biden's handling of the classified documents and how federal agencies responded.

On Friday, Republican House Judiciary members sent a letter to the attorney general announcing their inquiry into the handling of the documents and the appointment of Hur. Rep. Jim Jordan, R-Ohio, chair of the House Judiciary Committee, and Rep. Mike Johnson, R-La., demanded "all documents and communications" between the DOJ, FBI and White House related to the "mishandling of the classified documents" and the appointment of the special counsel.

There are parallels with the Trump classified documents saga, but the two situations are not identical.

The Presidential Records Act requires that all presidential (and vice presidential) documents be turned over to the National Archives upon the end of an administration. Other rules govern the storage of classified documents.

Now, both presidents have run afoul of those rules.

But from what we know so far, there are already important differences between how the two have handled their respective situations.

In Trump's case, the National Archives was the first to identify the missing documents and request their return.

Trump initially resisted returning them, and his lawyers at times misled federal investigators. After months of back-and-forth between the government and Trump aides, 15 boxes of documents were returned in January 2022. According to the FBI, the boxes included 184 classified documents, including 25 marked "Top Secret," as well as others denoted with labels indicating they contained national security information, such as "FISA." But more documents still remained at Mar-a-Lago, and ultimately the FBI raided the resort in August to retrieve the rest.

By contrast, Biden's team appears to have found a smaller number of documents, and returned them to the federal government promptly.

Still, the revelations about improperly stored documents and the appointment of a special counsel are an "embarrassment" to the Biden administration, said Leon Panetta, who served as White House chief of staff during the Clinton administration and as secretary of defense under President Obama.

"It's both an embarrassment and damaging to the credibility of the White House, because obviously the president has criticized former president Trump and the way he handled classified documents at Mar-a-Lago," Panetta said in an interview with NPR.

https://www.npr.org/2023/01/14/1149071576/biden-classified-documents-what-we-know

 

But to answer your question directly, yes, I believe it is very possible that Biden had these documents in his possession without realizing it.  Now that can be fairly characterized as extremely careless or even incompetent - but, as we are seeing - it is apparently not uncommon.

Former presidents and vice-presidents accumulate tons of paper they preserve for whatever reasons, typically for books or libraries.  Apparently, there has been in general, a lack of process to monitor this process.  That needs to be addressed.

Heck, I would be willing to believe the same "carelessness excuse" about Trump, except for 1) all of the new information associated with his case that has emerged and 2) his refusal to comply with the government's request to return them.

Anyway, regarding Biden, there has been nothing to suggest he had any sort of nefarious intent to possess these documents. 

(One would assume that had he   to keep them, they would have been a lot more organized and protected instead of just scattered around as they apparently were. And if these documents are "years old", what was his intent in the first place?)

More importantly, Biden didn't hesitate to volunteer their existence to the appropriate authorities when discovered and willingly returned them. 

So I say let the investigations do their work in all of these cases.  Hopefully, we'll learn a lot more about exactly what these documents contained as well as addressing the issue of intent in each case.

And if you don't think intent is relevant both from a legal and a political standpoint, just wait.

Meanwhile if you are interested in pursuing that question, here's an interesting piece that discusses it:

https://scholarship.law.wm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3588&context=wmlr

Biden's attorneys conducted the search.....  Hmmm, that seems appropriate.