Alabama = Ole Miss

[AUChizad 0]

I've done nothing but add context to my quotes. You tried to dig up stuff I typed two years ago and apply it to the situation today. That's called dirty pool.

It's dirty pool to prove you wrong when you try to act as if you position on Shula has been consistant?

Why do you guys keep trying to play the recruiting card? Not one time...let me repeat just incase you missed it...NOT ONE TIME did I say Shula deserved to be fired because of his recruiting. Here again is a case where you guys want to put words in Alabama fans' mouths to satisfy YOUR need for us to fit the crazy impatient mold that ESPN has created.

Where in there do I talk about recruiting? Where? I've said in countless threads that Shula recruited offense very well, and struggled with the LB and DL positions. I said it 2 years ago, and I'm saying it now. And it still holds.

You must have missed this thread you are posting in entirely.

Let's recap.

I said if Shula was as great of a recruiter as you claimed, combined with Saban being the Golden God that you claimed, you should be able to tap dance into the MNC next year.

You responded by saying you never said Shula was a great recruiter.

I posted YOUR own quotes in which you claimed him to be so. I also threw in other nuggets in which you praised the man just for an added bonus. You have such a strong tendency to spin away from the topic, the very posts that were the most ON topic were the ones that were the most lost on you.

Also, incase you missed it, here's the reasons why I said he was fired:

0-18 when trailing in the 4th quarter

Combined 0-8 against Auburn and LSU

1-3 against UT

1-3 against Arkansas

Refused to discipline players

Players had outwardly made note that they didn't respect him as a coach

Teams got worse as the game went on

Teams got CONSISTENTLY worse as the season went on

Played favorites in terms of playing players (see Ken Darby and Chris Capps)

Lost to MSU. Barely beat Duke, Vandy, and Ole Miss

Refused to make weightlifting mandatory

And bottom line, he was given the opportunity to make changes to his staff after 4 years and an overall 26-25 record...and he flat out refused. EVen though his offense was an embarassment, and his oline was the worst I've ever seen, he refused to make changes. Let's not forget that Bob Connely (Oline coach) wasn't even HIS guy. He was a holdover from the coaches Mike Price hired. Mike Shula was so determined to hang on to playcalling control, that he wouldn't fire the only O Cord in the country who would allow Mike to run the show.

Where was this outrage as late as TWO DAYS before the Iron Bowl? Why make all the excuses for him then, but now that the bammer party line is to make Shula the scapegoat for all of your problems, you decide to realize these things? At the time of your last post I quoted you on, every one of those bullet points you just listed were still true except he had one less loss to Auburn at the time. Yet you claimed he was a better coach than Tuberville.

Sorry for the repetitiveness of this post, but it seems I have to tell you at least 12times before any of these things sink in to you. So to save me the trouble, how about going back to the beginning of this thread and rereading.

As far as you digging up my old posts and calling me dense, I'm still laughing. After I defended my positions you haven't had much to say. I know you were so hoping that the time you spent digging that stuff up was going to be a great revelation. And I do get a chuckle in the face of your futility.

As I get a chuckle for your complete inability to see your own hypocrisy.

[AUChizad 0]

Bottom line, until last year, Shula's teams were improving. I defended Shula until the end of the season came around and his players didn't care that they lost to MSU. Many of my friends played football under Mike Dubose, and the resemblance in demeanor was striking. Dubose needed to go, and so did Shula. Hell we did the RIGHT thing in firing Mike Price...and you guys STILL use it against us. There's no winning with you all. If an Alabama fan says the sky is blue, you will say it is green, regardless of evidence to the contrary.

Better head coach

No. Better assistants...yes (except D cord).

Better head coach

No. Better assistants...yes (except D cord).

Better head coach

No. Better assistants...yes (except D cord).

This was after 11 games last season. Every game but the Iron Bowl and your bowl game. Mississippi State had happened long ago.

[BamaGrad03 0]

I told everyone I knew that Shula was done after the MSU loss. Just because I said Shula was a better Xs and Os guy than Tuberville, doesn't mean I expected him to be retained. Or that I thought he SHOULD be retained. I probably made a post here to that effect.

My position was PRO Shula until I saw all the things that were listed in my previous post.

Are you saying I'm a hypocrite because my position changed based on new information?

Like the position of MOST of the people on this board in 2003 about CTT? Up until the Bama game, most of the people here wanted him F-I-R-E-D. Now, no one will admit to it. Except Galen. He was honorable enough to admit that positions change. And that he was wrong. But that was the reigning sentitment here. He needed to be fired, and we were going to kill ya'll. He wins...and BOOM...he's the savior.

So tell me, am I not allowed to change my opinion of a fluid situation?

And about the recruiting. YOU YOU YOU are the one who put words in our mouths. Saying that there is some correlation to good (read not great) recruiting and EXPECTING a national title. That's asinine. YOU are trying to paint me into a corner. Not me. Where in the book does it say that because I don't think Shula did a terrible job recruiting...I should EXPECT a national title?

I've said 11,000 times. Shula did a pretty good job recruiting. An EXCELLENT job considering the circumstances. But he never brought in a top 5 class or anything close. And I've also said I expect 8-9 wins next year. So why do you keep putting words in my mouth? Can your world not be set right if the Bama fans out there DON'T expect a NC next year? Will it break you down if we are, infact, reasonable about next year?

I think you are projecting a little bit. I think you are worried about how things are going to be now that you don't have coach who will stand for mediocrity in Tuscaloosa. As much as you, and every AU fan out there, want to believe that Alabama is and always will be a 6-6 team...but you know under anyone competent it wont be...and I think that kills you.

Sure, AU will get their share of wins against Bama. But it's not AU and LSU...then everybody else in the West anymore. And 5 in a row will be a distant memory. If we were ever going to be buried, it would have happened during this probationary stretch. It didn't happen. And I think that bothers you.

You know, it doesn't bother every AU fan. Because there's a lot of AU fans out there who don't live vicariously through Alabama's demise...no they love AU first...hate Alabama second. With you, its obviously the other way around.

[GalensGhost 0]

I told everyone I knew that Shula was done after the MSU loss. Just because I said Shula was a better Xs and Os guy than Tuberville, doesn't mean I expected him to be retained. Or that I thought he SHOULD be retained. I probably made a post here to that effect.

My position was PRO Shula until I saw all the things that were listed in my previous post.

Are you saying I'm a hypocrite because my position changed based on new information?

Like the position of MOST of the people on this board in 2003 about CTT? Up until the Bama game, most of the people here wanted him F-I-R-E-D. Now, no one will admit to it. Except Galen. He was honorable enough to admit that positions change. And that he was wrong. But that was the reigning sentitment here. He needed to be fired, and we were going to kill ya'll. He wins...and BOOM...he's the savior.

So tell me, am I not allowed to change my opinion of a fluid situation?

And about the recruiting. YOU YOU YOU are the one who put words in our mouths. Saying that there is some correlation to good (read not great) recruiting and EXPECTING a national title. That's asinine. YOU are trying to paint me into a corner. Not me. Where in the book does it say that because I don't think Shula did a terrible job recruiting...I should EXPECT a national title?

I've said 11,000 times. Shula did a pretty good job recruiting. An EXCELLENT job considering the circumstances. But he never brought in a top 5 class or anything close. And I've also said I expect 8-9 wins next year. So why do you keep putting words in my mouth? Can your world not be set right if the Bama fans out there DON'T expect a NC next year? Will it break you down if we are, infact, reasonable about next year?

I think you are projecting a little bit. I think you are worried about how things are going to be now that you don't have coach who will stand for mediocrity in Tuscaloosa. As much as you, and every AU fan out there, want to believe that Alabama is and always will be a 6-6 team...but you know under anyone competent it wont be...and I think that kills you.

Sure, AU will get their share of wins against Bama. But it's not AU and LSU...then everybody else in the West anymore. And 5 in a row will be a distant memory. If we were ever going to be buried, it would have happened during this probationary stretch. It didn't happen. And I think that bothers you.

You know, it doesn't bother every AU fan. Because there's a lot of AU fans out there who don't live vicariously through Alabama's demise...no they love AU first...hate Alabama second. With you, its obviously the other way around.

This one's a little long, too. I'm going to have to BZZ it.

In the interest of brevity, allow me to note that if Saban isn't going to stand for mediocrity then he better take a seat.

[BamaGrad03 0]

In the interest of brevity, allow me to note that if Saban isn't going to stand for mediocrity then he better take a seat.

I know, I know. Alabama will never be more than a 6 win team. And Saban is a terrible coach.

Let's revisit this in 2 years.

[GalensGhost 0]

In the interest of brevity, allow me to note that if Saban isn't going to stand for mediocrity then he better take a seat.

I know, I know. Alabama will never be more than a 6 win team. And Saban is a terrible coach.

Let's revisit this in 2 years.

Given my track record of predicting the future of Alabama coaches, you probably don't want to do this.

[runswithscissors 33]

In the interest of brevity, allow me to note that if Saban isn't going to stand for mediocrity then he better take a seat.

I know, I know. Alabama will never be more than a 6 win team. And Saban is a terrible coach.

Let's revisit this in 2 years.

Given my track record of predicting the future of Alabama coaches, you probably don't want to do this.

if we hired CTT tomorrow you would come up with a million reasons why he is a terrible coach and alabama will never win a game ever again.

[DKW 86 7,440]

Bg, RWS, WC, BMH, we dont think you guys would even keep Bear as a HC for more than three seasons either these days. You guys just dont have the patience. THAT is the point I am making and think most of us are making is that your fanbase has expectations that are just sssooo ridiculously high that no coach could match them, not even Bear, these days.

Some of us were upset at Tuberville in 2003, but we had already seen what he could do with a good OC when Petrino was here in 2002. We knew he had a problem and he made it known that he would fix it and he did with Borges.

That is the difference between the two fanbases these days. We have only had three coaches in the same time you guys have had 8 now.

[runswithscissors 33]

Bg, RWS, WC, BMH, we dont think you guys would even keep Bear as a HC for more than three seasons either these days. You guys just dont have the patience. THAT is the point I am making and think most of us are making is that your fanbase has expectations that are just sssooo ridiculously high that no coach could match them, not even Bear, these days.

Some of us were upset at Tubervillein 2003, but we had already seen what he could do with a good OC when Petrino was here in 2002. We knew he had a problem and he made it known that he would fix it and he did with Borges.

That is the difference between the two fanbases these days. We have only had three coaches in the same time you guys have had 8 now.

so AU fans would be fine with losing to us for 5 years straight? AU fans would be fine with losing every single game when trailing entering the 4th quarter? AU would be fine winning only 2 games against SEC rivals over 4 years? AU would be fine with no team discipline? i highly doubt it. like BG said earlier, the fact that AU fans wanted us to keep CMS for as long as possible is a telling sign as to why he needed to be let go.

[BamaGrad03 0]

Bg, RWS, WC, BMH, we dont think you guys would even keep Bear as a HC for more than three seasons either these days. You guys just dont have the patience. THAT is the point I am making and think most of us are making is that your fanbase has expectations that are just sssooo ridiculously high that no coach could match them, not even Bear, these days.

Some of us were upset at Tubervillein 2003, but we had already seen what he could do with a good OC when Petrino was here in 2002. We knew he had a problem and he made it known that he would fix it and he did with Borges.

That is the difference between the two fanbases these days. We have only had three coaches in the same time you guys have had 8 now.

And you guys argue the patience point in the face of plenty of evidence to the contrary.

We were patient with Fran. He went 7-5 his first season. We didn't fire him. I thought we fired every coach who didn't win a NC every year? HE LEFT US. We wrote him a blank check. He always wanted to go back to Texas.

Mike Shula's utility had run out. We weren't impatient. And David, you haven't argued counter to that. I listed plenty of reasons why we fired him, and you know it was time for him to go.

Mike Price? I find it incredibly petty that you all would use this one against us. Considering we did the RIGHT thing by firing him. It had nothing to do with patience.

Mike Dubose? We were impatient? Really? You all think Bama was headed in the right direction under him? Please don't say yes while standing next to me...I don't want to be zapped by proxy.

Gene Stallings retired. Was loved by Bama fans. LOVED. Still is loved. Sure we complained about his offense, but only a few idiots wanted him to step down. Very few.

Bill Curry would be the only one who MIGHT fit your argument. Might might might. Then again, if we let him go too early, and he was a worthy coach, why isn't he still coaching?

Ray Perkins left us.

So there. 1 Coach since the 1950s that we've fired that you could POSSIBLY look at and say we were too impatient.

[saniflush 0]

Bottom line is the Auburn people didn't make any of your hires over the last twenty years. Now by looking at them outside the bubble it is hard to believe that we did not, but we didn't. It has been much funnier to watch you all dig your own graves in that regard with the full knowledge that you were doing your best immitaiton of Barney Fife and one bullet!

[WAR-MATT 2]

Just because I said Shula was a better Xs and Os guy than Tuberville

BG - you've brought me back out with this comment. Has Shula ever been considered a great coordinator? Has CTT ever been considered a great coordinator?

CTT was the coordinator of two #1 ranked defenses at two different schools(A&M & The U).

[BamaGrad03 0]

Bottom line is the Auburn people didn't make any of your hires over the last twenty years. Now by looking at them outside the bubble it is hard to believe that we did not, but we didn't. It has been much funnier to watch you all dig your own graves in that regard with the full knowledge that you were doing your best immitaiton of Barney Fife and one bullet!

Making bad hires doesn't make us impatient or unreasonable.

And I don't think Stallings was a bad hire. I'm sure AU fans were happy to see him go. I don't think Shula was a bad hire. He was exactly what we needed at the time. He is not what we need now. I think Mike Price was a good hire from a pure coaching standpoint. Same can be said about Fran.

[saniflush 0]

Bottom line is the Auburn people didn't make any of your hires over the last twenty years. Now by looking at them outside the bubble it is hard to believe that we did not, but we didn't. It has been much funnier to watch you all dig your own graves in that regard with the full knowledge that you were doing your best immitaiton of Barney Fife and one bullet!

Making bad hires doesn't make us impatient or unreasonable.

And I don't think Stallings was a bad hire. I'm sure AU fans were happy to see him go. I don't think Shula was a bad hire. He was exactly what we needed at the time. He is not what we need now. I think Mike Price was a good hire from a pure coaching standpoint. Same can be said about Fran.

Your program has needed long term stability, plain and simple. Now some of that has not been your complete and total fault but saying the people who made the hiring decisions bare no responsibility is absolutely laughable.

[BamaGrad03 0]

Your program has needed long term stability, plain and simple. Now some of that has not been your complete and total fault but saying the people who made the hiring decisions bare no responsibility is absolutely laughable.

Again, it's a completely different issue. Not hiring the RIGHT guy is not the same as being an impatient fanbase. Only once, when a coach left UA since the 50s, could it be seen as us being impatient.

[mcgufcm 4,107]

shula was a bad hire. what you needed was an up and coming coach with the ability to grow into the position. (liiiiiike say tommy tuberville coming from ole miss... if you're looking for an example.) bama's just never shown the ability to find that guy.

for a long time, your problem was in-house, myopic hiring; then you made the shift, found a pretty good coach (not great) who cut ship (funny how tubby's called a used car salesman but he's now the second tenured coach in the sec... while bama got duped by a texan that used them to get promoted in texas) before things went downhill.

then you hired someone who was obviously, joyfully in over his head from day one. he wasn't a killer recruiter, wasn't a great coordinator, had no management skills to speak of, and didn't instill discipline into the program. if you can't see mike shula as a bad hire, i just don't know what the heck you do see. (and the notion that he's a better x and o coach than a national championship assistant turned red hot coordinator turned excellent head coach is laughable)

bama's like oklahoma or usc or texas or ohio state... in the long run. (recently? more like the rebs.) if they can do it before the luster of the past is gone, they'll find a coach and bounce back eventually, but they're dangerously close to becoming an afterthought b/c they've been so average and inconsistent for so long, under so many head coaches. after a while, that's just who you are. personally, i think saban's a good one, and i'm looking forward to some duels against teams that actually scare me (it's really been since 2003 that i thought you had a chance).

honestly though? i think tubby is STILL the most underrated coach in the sec, AND i think he's a better coach than saban. this thing is running to six this year (making five in a row a thing of the past, just like you said), and i don't see the talent gap closing next year either (when you lose almost all your offensive firepower on the edges). plus, i think saban is going to stoke tubby's competitive fire. bama hiring a good coach may be a good thing for BOTH universities.

[BamaGrad03 0]

Shula was the best hire we could make at the time. We made a great hire in Price, but he screwed us. And when we let him go (right thing to do) we had to hire the best we could in the middle of May. It's tough to find a good up and comer in the middle of May...when you are on probation...and just taken a beating in the media for firing a guy based on principle.

[AUChizad 0]

I told everyone I knew that Shula was done after the MSU loss. Just because I said Shula was a better Xs and Os guy than Tuberville, doesn't mean I expected him to be retained. Or that I thought he SHOULD be retained. I probably made a post here to that effect.

My position was PRO Shula until I saw all the things that were listed in my previous post.

Are you saying I'm a hypocrite because my position changed based on new information?

Like the position of MOST of the people on this board in 2003 about CTT? Up until the Bama game, most of the people here wanted him F-I-R-E-D. Now, no one will admit to it. Except Galen. He was honorable enough to admit that positions change. And that he was wrong. But that was the reigning sentitment here. He needed to be fired, and we were going to kill ya'll. He wins...and BOOM...he's the savior.

So tell me, am I not allowed to change my opinion of a fluid situation?

And about the recruiting. YOU YOU YOU are the one who put words in our mouths. Saying that there is some correlation to good (read not great) recruiting and EXPECTING a national title. That's asinine. YOU are trying to paint me into a corner. Not me. Where in the book does it say that because I don't think Shula did a terrible job recruiting...I should EXPECT a national title?

I've said 11,000 times. Shula did a pretty good job recruiting. An EXCELLENT job considering the circumstances. But he never brought in a top 5 class or anything close. And I've also said I expect 8-9 wins next year. So why do you keep putting words in my mouth? Can your world not be set right if the Bama fans out there DON'T expect a NC next year? Will it break you down if we are, infact, reasonable about next year?

I think you are projecting a little bit. I think you are worried about how things are going to be now that you don't have coach who will stand for mediocrity in Tuscaloosa. As much as you, and every AU fan out there, want to believe that Alabama is and always will be a 6-6 team...but you know under anyone competent it wont be...and I think that kills you.

Sure, AU will get their share of wins against Bama. But it's not AU and LSU...then everybody else in the West anymore. And 5 in a row will be a distant memory. If we were ever going to be buried, it would have happened during this probationary stretch. It didn't happen. And I think that bothers you.

You know, it doesn't bother every AU fan. Because there's a lot of AU fans out there who don't live vicariously through Alabama's demise...no they love AU first...hate Alabama second. With you, its obviously the other way around.

Arguing with you is incredibly tiresome. Now you've pulled the ol' write a small novel and then when I don't quote you line for line and debunk everything you've said sentence by sentence no matter how far you've strayed from the original topic, then I'm somehow the one cherry picking my argument.

So aside from your baseless claims that I'm a hate bammer first, love Auburn second guy attacks, the only portion of your rant with any substance was this one line.

So tell me, am I not allowed to change my opinion of a fluid situation?

And even still you're trying to confuse the issue. The only fluidity in the situation that has occured since your comment I quoted you on from two days before your last regular season game was that it's officially the uat party line to blame Shula for any and everything wrong with your program. One week prior, it was the party line to defend him tooth and nail as you so regularly displayed.

It's not like this is new evidence being introduced in a court case. You had the same evidence in front of you then that you do now sans one regular season game to us. And surely you didn't honestly expect to win that one anyway, did you?

[abrnfanatc 6]

We made a great hire in Price, but he screwed us.

That you Destiny?

[BamaGrad03 0]

And even still you're trying to confuse the issue. The only fluidity in the situation that has occrued since your comment I quoted you on from two days before your last regular season game was that it's officially the uat party line to blame Shula for any and everything wrong with your program. One week prior, it was the party line to defend him tooth and nail as you so regularly displayed.

It's not like this is new evidence being introduced in a court case. You had the same evidence in front of you then that you do now sans one regular season game to us. And surely you didn't honestly expect to win that one anyway, did you?

Like I've stated before, I said Shula was done after the MSU game. So I don't really see your point. There were also plenty of private conversations I had on this board where I echoed the same sentiments.

[WAR-MATT 2]

Shula was the best hire we could make at the time. We made a great hire in Price, but he screwed us. And when we let him go (right thing to do) we had to hire the best we could in the middle of May. It's tough to find a good up and comer in the middle of May...when you are on probation...and just taken a beating in the media for firing a guy based on principle.

No, UAT should have let Kines be the interim for 03' and then hired someone qualified for 04'. You guys should have known from Shula's first presser that he wasn't going to work out. I still don't know how he got the job.

[GalensGhost 0]

Bg, RWS, WC, BMH, we dont think you guys would even keep Bear as a HC for more than three seasons either these days. You guys just dont have the patience. THAT is the point I am making and think most of us are making is that your fanbase has expectations that are just sssooo ridiculously high that no coach could match them, not even Bear, these days.

Some of us were upset at Tubervillein 2003, but we had already seen what he could do with a good OC when Petrino was here in 2002. We knew he had a problem and he made it known that he would fix it and he did with Borges.

That is the difference between the two fanbases these days. We have only had three coaches in the same time you guys have had 8 now.

And you guys argue the patience point in the face of plenty of evidence to the contrary.

We were patient with Fran. He went 7-5 his first season. We didn't fire him. I thought we fired every coach who didn't win a NC every year? HE LEFT US. We wrote him a blank check. He always wanted to go back to Texas.

Mike Shula's utility had run out. We weren't impatient. And David, you haven't argued counter to that. I listed plenty of reasons why we fired him, and you know it was time for him to go.

Mike Price? I find it incredibly petty that you all would use this one against us. Considering we did the RIGHT thing by firing him. It had nothing to do with patience.

Mike Dubose? We were impatient? Really? You all think Bama was headed in the right direction under him? Please don't say yes while standing next to me...I don't want to be zapped by proxy.

Gene Stallings retired. Was loved by Bama fans. LOVED. Still is loved. Sure we complained about his offense, but only a few idiots wanted him to step down. Very few.

Bill Curry would be the only one who MIGHT fit your argument. Might might might. Then again, if we let him go too early, and he was a worthy coach, why isn't he still coaching?

Ray Perkins left us.

So there. 1 Coach since the 1950s that we've fired that you could POSSIBLY look at and say we were too impatient.

BG, all I feel compelled to add to this is that the appearance is that you were willing to write Shula off after one season where he did not meet expectations.

He exceeded them in 2005, failed to meet them in 2006 and for that he was bounced like rubber ball. If your fanbase WAS as patient and understanding as you claim, you would not have given Shula a raise and extension after 2005 while your president praised him as the next bryant and offered his beaming assessment that Shula would be around for many, many years and then trashed both him and his reputation when his 2006 team just didn't mesh.

All the things you listed as reasons for his firing were JUST as valid in 2005 as they were in 2006 but in '05 he got a raise, an extension and the key to the city. For that reason the appearance (nationwide) is that a coach is not allowed to have even a single season where expectations aren't met.

[DKW 86 7,440]

Bg, RWS, WC, BMH, we dont think you guys would even keep Bear as a HC for more than three seasons either these days. You guys just dont have the patience. THAT is the point I am making and think most of us are making is that your fanbase has expectations that are just sssooo ridiculously high that no coach could match them, not even Bear, these days.

Some of us were upset at Tubervillein 2003, but we had already seen what he could do with a good OC when Petrino was here in 2002. We knew he had a problem and he made it known that he would fix it and he did with Borges.

That is the difference between the two fanbases these days. We have only had three coaches in the same time you guys have had 8 now.

so AU fans would be fine with losing to us for 5 years straight? AU fans would be fine with losing every single game when trailing entering the 4th quarter? AU would be fine winning only 2 games against SEC rivals over 4 years? AU would be fine with no team discipline? i highly doubt it. like BG said earlier, the fact that AU fans wanted us to keep CMS for as long as possible is a telling sign as to why he needed to be let go.

We went 9 straight and didnt burn anyonme in effigy. I would not like it, but I wouldnot be demnanding the coach's head at three. I would be worrying, there comes a time when changing coaches becomes the problem.