the plot thickens............holy cow

[aubiefifty 16,766]

businessinsider.com

 

Some among America's military allies believe Trump deliberately attempted a coup and may have had help from federal law-enforcement officials

Mitch Prothero

10-13 minutes

---

President Donald Trump at the White House on November 26. Erin Schaff - Pool/Getty Images

• Multiple European security officials told Insider that President Donald Trump appeared to have tacit support among US federal agencies responsible for securing the Capitol complex in Wednesday's coup attempt.
• Insider is reporting this information because it illustrates the serious repercussions of Wednesday's events: Even if they are mistaken, some among America's international military allies are now willing to give credence to the idea that Trump deliberately tried to violently overturn an election and had help from some federal law-enforcement agents.
• "We train alongside the US federal law enforcement to handle these very matters, and it's obvious that large parts of any successful plan were just ignored," one source told us.
• Visit Business Insider's homepage for more stories.

The supporters of President Donald Trump who stormed the Capitol on Wednesday to stop the ratification of President-elect Joe Biden's election victory were attempting a violent coup that multiple European security officials said appeared to have at least tacit support from aspects of the US federal agencies responsible for securing the Capitol complex.

Insider spoke with three officials on Thursday morning: a French police official responsible for public security in a key section of central Paris, and two intelligence officials from NATO countries who directly work in counterterrorism and counterintelligence operations involving the US, terrorism, and Russia.

They said the circumstantial evidence available pointed to what would be openly called a coup attempt in any other nation. None were willing to speak on the record because of the dire nature of the subject.

Read more: Secret Service experts are speculating in group chats about how Trump might be hauled out of the White House if he won't budge on Inauguration Day

While they did not furnish evidence that federal agency officials facilitated the chaos, Insider is reporting this information because it illustrates the scale and seriousness of Wednesday's events: America's international military and security allies are now willing to give serious credence to the idea that Trump deliberately tried to violently overturn an election and that some federal law-enforcement agents — by omission or otherwise — facilitated the attempt.

'Today I am briefing my government that we believe with a reasonable level of certainty that Donald Trump attempted a coup'

One NATO source set the stage, using terms more commonly used to describe unrest in developing countries.

"The defeated president gives a speech to a group of supporters where he tells them he was robbed of the election, denounces his own administration's members and party as traitors, and tells his supporters to storm the building where the voting is being held," the NATO intelligence official said.

"The supporters, many dressed in military attire and waving revolutionary-style flags, then storm the building where the federal law-enforcement agencies controlled by the current president do not establish a security cordon, and the protesters quickly overwhelm the last line of police.

"The president then makes a public statement to the supporters attacking the Capitol that he loves them but doesn't really tell them to stop," the official said. "Today I am briefing my government that we believe with a reasonable level of certainty that Donald Trump attempted a coup that failed when the system did not buckle.

"I can't believe this happened."

A law-enforcement official who trains with US forces believes someone interfered with the proper deployment of officers around Congress

The French police official said they believed that an investigation would find that someone interfered with the deployment of additional federal law-enforcement officials on the perimeter of the Capitol complex; the official has direct knowledge of the proper procedures for security of the facility.

The security of Congress is entrusted to the US Capitol Police, a federal agency that answers to Congress.

It is routine for the Capitol Police to coordinate with the federal Secret Service and the Park Police and local police in Washington, DC, before large demonstrations. The National Guard, commanded by the Department of Defense, is often on standby too.

On Wednesday, however, that coordination was late or absent.

'It's obvious that large parts of any successful plan were just ignored'

"You cannot tell me I don't know what they should have done. I can fly to Washington tomorrow and do that job, just as any police official in Washington can fly to Paris and do mine," the official said. The official directs public security in a central Paris police district filled with government buildings and tourist sites.

"These are not subtle principles" for managing demonstrations, "and they transfer to every situation," the official said. "This is why we train alongside the US federal law enforcement to handle these very matters, and it's obvious that large parts of any successful plan were just ignored."

The National Guard, which was deployed heavily to quell the Black Lives Matter protests in 2020, did not show up to assist the police until two hours after the action started on Wednesday, according to The Associated Press.

Video shows police doing nothing as rioters access the building

One video appeared to show some police officers opening a barrier to allow a group of protesters to get closer to the Capitol dome. Another video showed a police officer allowing a rioter to take a selfie with him inside the Capitol while protesters milled around the building unchecked.

Kim Dine, who was the chief of the Capitol Police from 2012 to 2016, told The Washington Post that he was surprised that the Capitol Police allowed demonstrators on the steps of the Capitol. He said he was also mystified that few rioters were arrested on the spot.

Larry Schaefer, who worked for the Capitol Police for more than 30 years, told ProPublica something similar: "We have a planned, known demonstration that has a propensity for violence in the past and threats to carry weapons — why would you not prepare yourself as we have done in the past?"

The Capitol Police did not immediately respond to Insider's request for comment.

Systematic failures

The French police official detailed multiple lapses they believe were systematic:

1. Large crowds of protesters needed to be managed far earlier by the police, who instead controlled a scene at the first demonstration Trump addressed, then ignored the crowd as it streamed toward the Capitol.
2. "It should have been surrounded, managed, and directed immediately, and that pressure never released."
3. Because the crowd was not managed and directed, the official said, the protesters were able to congregate unimpeded around the Capitol, where the next major failure took place.
4. "It is unthinkable there was not a strong police cordon on the outskirts of the complex. Fences and barricades are useless without strong police enforcement. This is when you start making arrests, targeting key people that appear violent, anyone who attacks an officer, anyone who breaches the barricade. You have to show that crossing the line will fail and end in arrest."
5. "I cannot believe the failure to establish a proper cordon was a mistake. These are very skilled police officials, but they are federal, and that means they ultimately report to the president. This needs to be investigated."
6. "When the crowd reached the steps of the building, the situation was over. The police are there to protect the building from terrorist attacks and crime, not a battalion of infantry. That had to be managed from hundreds of meters away unless the police were willing to completely open fire, and I can respect why they were not."

'Thank God it didn't work, because I can't imagine how hard it would be to sanction the US financial system'

The third official, who works in counterintelligence for a NATO member, agreed that the situation could only be seen as a coup attempt, no matter how poorly considered and likely to fail, and said its implications might be too huge to immediately fathom.

"Thank God it didn't work, because I can't imagine how hard it would be to sanction the US financial system," the official said. By sanctions, he means the imposition of the diplomatic, military, and trade blockages that democratic nations usually reserve for dictatorships.

"The broader damage around the world will be extensive in terms of reputation, and that's why Putin doesn't mind at all that Trump lost. He's got to be happy to take his chips and count his winnings, which from the Trump era will be a shockingly quick decline in American prestige and moral high ground.

"Every moment the Americans spend on their own self-inflicted chaos helps China, it helps Putin, and, to a lesser extent, it helps the mini-dictators like [Turkish President Recep Tayyip] Erdogan and [Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor] Orban, who breathe cynicism about politics, human rights, and democracy as their air," the official said. "They won't miss Trump; they'll be glad to see his drama leave so they can enjoy the poisoned political climate."

[autigeremt 6,600]

They are going to do everything they can to totally destroy this man whether he deserves it or not. I never voted for him and didn't think he would ever be much of a leader but it's amazing how much he is seen as a threat. 

[aubiefifty 16,766]

6 minutes ago, autigeremt said:

They are going to do everything they can to totally destroy this man whether he deserves it or not. I never voted for him and didn't think he would ever be much of a leader but it's amazing how much he is seen as a threat. 

wow.

[autigeremt 6,600]

14 minutes ago, aubiefifty said:

wow.

It's just an observation. I personally see him as a very, very big mistake. 

[wdefromtx 3,159]

Good to see that our country is set up to handle a coup from thousands of rednecks being manipulated and led by our psychotic reality show president. 
 

It was sad to see it happen. This hopefully wakes some people up about Trump and the fact that wholesale changes need to happen with our politicians. 
 

Its only going to get worse until things change unfortunately. 

[autigeremt 6,600]

18 minutes ago, wdefromtx said:

Good to see that our country is set up to handle a coup from thousands of rednecks being manipulated and led by our psychotic reality show president. 
 

It was sad to see it happen. This hopefully wakes some people up about Trump and the fact that wholesale changes need to happen with our politicians. 
 

Its only going to get worse until things change unfortunately. 

I don't see the politicians changing much. Hope I'm wrong. 

[homersapien 11,367]

19 hours ago, wdefromtx said:

Good to see that our country is set up to handle a coup from thousands of rednecks being manipulated and led by our psychotic reality show president. 
 

It was sad to see it happen. This hopefully wakes some people up about Trump and the fact that wholesale changes need to happen with our politicians. 
 

Its only going to get worse until things change unfortunately. 

Huuuh, they didn't handle it.  They were obviously overwhelmed (thus the OP). 

The difference between the way the peaceful BLM protest in Lafayette square was handled - with tear gas and overwhelming force  - even before the proclaimed curfew - offers a striking contrast, which further supports the premise of the OP.

To your point about political change, I agree, but it goes even beyond politics.  It requires a cultural change, as this article illustrates:

 

The Capitol mob images shouldn’t surprise you. Open insurrection was always where we were headed.

By  Philip Kennicott

If you’re not sick to your stomach looking at the images coming out of Washington, you will be. And if a lawless mob carrying Confederate flags, braying open sedition and storming the Capitol doesn’t sicken you, it will sicken your children — if the nation survives.

Last summer, when Black Lives Matters protesters came to Washington to protest police violence against African Americans, National Guard troops lined up in a phalanx rows deep on the steps of Lincoln Memorial. They were there, they said, to protect an important symbol of our democracy. Today, the racist remains of the party of Lincoln attacked not just a symbol of democracy but also its process and function. As the president incited a riot and then egged it on with tweets stoking grievance, over an election that he lost by no small margin, angry crowds did the unthinkable: They bypassed or overwhelmed police lines, streamed through Statuary Hall and took to the dais of the Senate chamber, shouting obscenities, inanities and treason. Even after he called for his forces to stand down, President Trump continued to stoke the same anger that animated them, inspiriting them with the same emotions that brought them to the Capitol, to clamber over walls, preen and posture and scream with rage.

During Black Lives Matter protests last summer, the D.C. National Guard took up a stance on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial. (Win Mcnamee/Getty Images)

 

Rioters scale the walls on the Senate side of the Capitol. (Michael Robinson Chavez/The Washington Post)

The whole drama, the body language, the flags and the onslaught, was borrowed from other dramas — genuine displays of revolutionary fervor against autocrats, authentic acts protesting illegitimate governments. But it was a charade. Not civic or selfless, but corrosive, destructive and illegal.

In real time, journalists and pundits expressed disbelief and wondered aloud: How can this be happening? There was a simple, terrible and chastening answer, and one that will sicken decent Americans for generations to come: It happened because we refused to believe it could happen.

Many Americans once considered this blindness to cataclysm latent in every democratic government, including ours, to be a peculiarly American form of strength. Our naivete was a talisman against disorder. The power of precedence, the comforting illusion of a stable history, the fantasy that our institutions were so just and well ordered that nothing could shake them, might well have seemed a bulwark against today’s attempted coup. Surely Americans, who are by our own fatuous self-definition fundamentally decent, would never attempt the unthinkable, no matter how angry. And so people who get paid to dither on television suddenly began talking at it, repeating again and again their disbelief, as if the arrival of this ugliness was as unexpected as an errant asteroid or alien invasion in a bad science-fiction flick.

But over the past four years, as Trump attacked again and again, dividing the country, inflaming anger, exacerbating every conflict and pouring salt into every wound, the unwillingness to see today’s events became more than a weakness. It became culpable.

We could muster the National Guard to defend bricks and mortar against the possibility that perhaps some angry protesters against police brutality might spill a little paint or hurl water bottles. But we couldn’t, or wouldn’t, defend the Constitution and the republic against open rebellion, a rebellion foretold by every act of a lawless president who has never been coy about his real intent.

 

Rioters forced their way onto the Senate floor. (Win Mcnamee/Getty Images)

One moment in today’s appalling mayhem was telling. As they filed through Statuary Hall, some of Trump’s thugs snapped selfies of themselves, as if they were merely tourists. Meanwhile, windows were being broken, room trashed, historic spaces defiled. You might think it odd that the hardcore Make America Great Again crowd would damage a beloved symbol of the country they profess to support. But not if you understand the deeper dynamic. This was never about who wins elections and the right to govern. It has always been about ownership. Trump’s cult believes that they are the sole, legitimate owners of the country, and if that’s true, then there can be no sin in damaging what is rightfully yours, right?

Which explains why the nation’s capital went into a defensive crouch last summer and enlisted the military to put down peaceful demonstrations, when multiracial crowds gathered to demand that the country live up to the promise of its founding documents. These were outsiders, aliens, invaders. But when the Congress met to formalize the peaceful transference of power, suddenly one of the most fortified buildings on the planet was defenseless against amateur insurrectionists.

Trumpism is a lifestyle disease, chronic in America

In the doctrine of white supremacy, articulated in the deeds, acts, executive orders and repellent speeches of the president himself, some people legitimately own America, while others are merely suffered to live here by the consent of men like Trump and his supporters. Police will mostly defer to the former with circumspection and polite restraint; they will beat down and gas the latter even before the hour of curfew has arrived.

Trump supporters try to break through a police barrier. (John Minchillo/AP)

In this most recent escalation of a four-year putsch — abetted by some of the same representatives and senators whose chambers were attacked by the mob — we see the last few threads of Trumpism that were never explicit now made manifest. Trumpism was never about governance or stewardship of the country. It was about a right to possess so deep that it includes the right to destroy.

That is what is so sickening today, what will sicken us for decades to come and what has shamed us before the world in perpetuity. There is only one way out of this, only one redemption. We must see what has happened today for what it is, with no mincing of words and no obfuscations. A minority of Americans, encouraged by a reckless, cornered and irresponsible lame-duck president, sought to take full possession of what they feel they, and they alone, legitimately possess, which is the right to run the country without a Constitution, without laws, without equal rights for all people.

We knew this was coming, we had the evidence, none of it was a mystery.

Those who claim otherwise, who pretend that this wasn’t the inevitable last act of a presidency grounded on white supremacy, now bear the shame of America. They aren’t blind or foolish, they are guilty. Let them retire from public life and reflect with penitence on what we have seen today. And then let us a remake a capital city that will never again leave itself open to this kind of tawdry insurrection.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/images-trump-mobs-at-capitol/2021/01/06/87324ae4-5061-11eb-bda4-615aaefd0555_story.html

 

[homersapien 11,367]

19 hours ago, autigeremt said:

I don't see the politicians changing much. Hope I'm wrong. 

Politicians aren't leaders, they reflect the will of the people.  Trump didn't create this, he rode it.

[I_M4_AU 7,801]

3 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Politicians aren't leaders

And this is the problem.  We don’t elect leaders as this identity politics we are in this country can’t see past the next 4 years.

[bigbird 60,510]

21 hours ago, autigeremt said:

It's just an observation. I personally see him as a very, very big mistake. 

Watch them impeach him after he leaves so he can never hold federal office again.  It's fine with me if he never holds an office again, but that's a spitefully and petty way to do it.

[CoffeeTiger 5,102]

1 hour ago, bigbird said:

Watch them impeach him after he leaves so he can never hold federal office again.  It's fine with me if he never holds an office again, but that's a spitefully and petty way to do it.

Not if he deserves to be impeached it's not. 

 

Just because there is absolutely nothing that Trump could have ever done or said that would have been 'bad' enough for Republicans to vote to impeach doesn't mean that it's not justified. 

[McLoofus 35,182]

1 hour ago, bigbird said:

Watch them impeach him after he leaves so he can never hold federal office again.  It's fine with me if he never holds an office again, but that's a spitefully and petty way to do it.

You really have to insist on painting everything Dem in such a negative light. I wish you would be honest about this.

The dude is clearly a threat to national security. That is why they would risk the blowback- and it will be severe, especially given that self-professed centrists are already attributing negative motivations to it- to do it. 

Jesus, dude. 

[wdefromtx 3,159]

3 hours ago, homersapien said:

Huuuh, they didn't handle it.  They were obviously overwhelmed (thus the OP). 

The difference between the way the peaceful BLM protest in Lafayette square was handled - with tear gas and overwhelming force  - even before the proclaimed curfew - offers a striking contrast, which further supports the premise of the OP.

To your point about political change, I agree, but it goes even beyond politics.  It requires a cultural change, as this article illustrates:

 

The Capitol mob images shouldn’t surprise you. Open insurrection was always where we were headed.

By  Philip Kennicott

If you’re not sick to your stomach looking at the images coming out of Washington, you will be. And if a lawless mob carrying Confederate flags, braying open sedition and storming the Capitol doesn’t sicken you, it will sicken your children — if the nation survives.

Last summer, when Black Lives Matters protesters came to Washington to protest police violence against African Americans, National Guard troops lined up in a phalanx rows deep on the steps of Lincoln Memorial. They were there, they said, to protect an important symbol of our democracy. Today, the racist remains of the party of Lincoln attacked not just a symbol of democracy but also its process and function. As the president incited a riot and then egged it on with tweets stoking grievance, over an election that he lost by no small margin, angry crowds did the unthinkable: They bypassed or overwhelmed police lines, streamed through Statuary Hall and took to the dais of the Senate chamber, shouting obscenities, inanities and treason. Even after he called for his forces to stand down, President Trump continued to stoke the same anger that animated them, inspiriting them with the same emotions that brought them to the Capitol, to clamber over walls, preen and posture and scream with rage.

During Black Lives Matter protests last summer, the D.C. National Guard took up a stance on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial. (Win Mcnamee/Getty Images)

 

Rioters scale the walls on the Senate side of the Capitol. (Michael Robinson Chavez/The Washington Post)

The whole drama, the body language, the flags and the onslaught, was borrowed from other dramas — genuine displays of revolutionary fervor against autocrats, authentic acts protesting illegitimate governments. But it was a charade. Not civic or selfless, but corrosive, destructive and illegal.

In real time, journalists and pundits expressed disbelief and wondered aloud: How can this be happening? There was a simple, terrible and chastening answer, and one that will sicken decent Americans for generations to come: It happened because we refused to believe it could happen.

Many Americans once considered this blindness to cataclysm latent in every democratic government, including ours, to be a peculiarly American form of strength. Our naivete was a talisman against disorder. The power of precedence, the comforting illusion of a stable history, the fantasy that our institutions were so just and well ordered that nothing could shake them, might well have seemed a bulwark against today’s attempted coup. Surely Americans, who are by our own fatuous self-definition fundamentally decent, would never attempt the unthinkable, no matter how angry. And so people who get paid to dither on television suddenly began talking at it, repeating again and again their disbelief, as if the arrival of this ugliness was as unexpected as an errant asteroid or alien invasion in a bad science-fiction flick.

But over the past four years, as Trump attacked again and again, dividing the country, inflaming anger, exacerbating every conflict and pouring salt into every wound, the unwillingness to see today’s events became more than a weakness. It became culpable.

We could muster the National Guard to defend bricks and mortar against the possibility that perhaps some angry protesters against police brutality might spill a little paint or hurl water bottles. But we couldn’t, or wouldn’t, defend the Constitution and the republic against open rebellion, a rebellion foretold by every act of a lawless president who has never been coy about his real intent.

 

Rioters forced their way onto the Senate floor. (Win Mcnamee/Getty Images)

One moment in today’s appalling mayhem was telling. As they filed through Statuary Hall, some of Trump’s thugs snapped selfies of themselves, as if they were merely tourists. Meanwhile, windows were being broken, room trashed, historic spaces defiled. You might think it odd that the hardcore Make America Great Again crowd would damage a beloved symbol of the country they profess to support. But not if you understand the deeper dynamic. This was never about who wins elections and the right to govern. It has always been about ownership. Trump’s cult believes that they are the sole, legitimate owners of the country, and if that’s true, then there can be no sin in damaging what is rightfully yours, right?

Which explains why the nation’s capital went into a defensive crouch last summer and enlisted the military to put down peaceful demonstrations, when multiracial crowds gathered to demand that the country live up to the promise of its founding documents. These were outsiders, aliens, invaders. But when the Congress met to formalize the peaceful transference of power, suddenly one of the most fortified buildings on the planet was defenseless against amateur insurrectionists.

Trumpism is a lifestyle disease, chronic in America

In the doctrine of white supremacy, articulated in the deeds, acts, executive orders and repellent speeches of the president himself, some people legitimately own America, while others are merely suffered to live here by the consent of men like Trump and his supporters. Police will mostly defer to the former with circumspection and polite restraint; they will beat down and gas the latter even before the hour of curfew has arrived.

Trump supporters try to break through a police barrier. (John Minchillo/AP)

In this most recent escalation of a four-year putsch — abetted by some of the same representatives and senators whose chambers were attacked by the mob — we see the last few threads of Trumpism that were never explicit now made manifest. Trumpism was never about governance or stewardship of the country. It was about a right to possess so deep that it includes the right to destroy.

That is what is so sickening today, what will sicken us for decades to come and what has shamed us before the world in perpetuity. There is only one way out of this, only one redemption. We must see what has happened today for what it is, with no mincing of words and no obfuscations. A minority of Americans, encouraged by a reckless, cornered and irresponsible lame-duck president, sought to take full possession of what they feel they, and they alone, legitimately possess, which is the right to run the country without a Constitution, without laws, without equal rights for all people.

We knew this was coming, we had the evidence, none of it was a mystery.

Those who claim otherwise, who pretend that this wasn’t the inevitable last act of a presidency grounded on white supremacy, now bear the shame of America. They aren’t blind or foolish, they are guilty. Let them retire from public life and reflect with penitence on what we have seen today. And then let us a remake a capital city that will never again leave itself open to this kind of tawdry insurrection.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/images-trump-mobs-at-capitol/2021/01/06/87324ae4-5061-11eb-bda4-615aaefd0555_story.html

 

I am talking more so of our republic and constitution. The Tuberville defense in DC that let everyone in.....not so much.

[TitanTiger 20,472]

[bigbird 60,510]

28 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

You really have to insist on painting everything Dem in such a negative light. I wish you would be honest about this.

The dude is clearly a threat to national security. That is why they would risk the blowback- and it will be severe, especially given that self-professed centrists are already attributing negative motivations to it- to do it. 

Jesus, dude. 

1st off, that is honest.

 https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/impeachment-trump-congress/2021/01/08/2a0d83ca-51c3-11eb-b96e-0e54447b23a1_story.html

 

Trump will be, or should be, an afterthought in a year if people stop feeding him or giving his supporters reasons to defend him.  Just let him sulk home and disappear. If the dem leadership, after beating him at the polls, believe they need to impeach him after he's left office, then that's petty and spiteful. If sides were reversed, it would still be pretty and spiteful.  Why is that offensive to say and why does it bother you so much

 

[McLoofus 35,182]

2 minutes ago, bigbird said:

1st off, that is honest.

 https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/impeachment-trump-congress/2021/01/08/2a0d83ca-51c3-11eb-b96e-0e54447b23a1_story.html

 

Okay... ? Because there are a few words in there about making him pay? Yes, they should do that, also. It should be made clear that sedition and traitorous behavior won't be tolerated from the freaking President of the United States of America.  Which part do you disagree with? That this was sedition or that it wasn't okay? 

2 minutes ago, bigbird said:

Trump will be, or should be, an afterthought in a year if people stop feeding him or giving his supporters reasons to defend him.  Just let him sulk home and disappear.

Oh, come on. You can't believe this. You can't believe that he'll just go away and that his supporters are going to move on to something else. If you do, it is a clear example of you believing what you want to believe and lacking any objectivity whatsoever. 

Remember when you said that it didn't matter that trump wouldn't acknowledge the election results? How can you possibly still be underestimating and minimizing?

5 minutes ago, bigbird said:

If the dem leadership, after beating him at the polls, believe they need to impeach him after he's left office, then that's petty and spiteful. If sides were reversed, it would still be pretty and spiteful. 

So this is you doing it again. You can only criticize Democrats.

This man cannot be allowed to hold office again. There is a mechanism to achieve that goal. 

8 minutes ago, bigbird said:

Why is that offensive to say and why does it bother you so much

It bothers me that an otherwise intelligent and thoughtful person who has loudly proclaimed his superior objectivity and centrism so regularly displays an absence of either. 

Like I said, I just really wish you'd be more honest. 

[bigbird 60,510]

24 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Oh, come on. You can't believe this. You can't believe that he'll just go away and that his supporters are going to move on to something else. If you do, it is a clear example of you believing what you want to believe and lacking any objectivity whatsoever. 

Wasn't it said that HRC would be all over the place during the last 4 years preparing for another run? Was she?  Once out of office, you rarely hear about or from ex-POTUS. That's just the truth. Why would this be any different? Until prove otherwise, I'll stick to the pattern that's been shown.

24 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

So this is you doing it again. You can only criticize Democrats.

This man cannot be allowed to hold office again. There is a mechanism to achieve that goal. 

In what way?  I've already said that those storming should've been shot and if roles were reversed that I'd be saying the same thing. Unfortunately, things aren't the other way and only one party is talking about an after office impeachment.

The mechanisms are in place. They are held every 4 years. 

24 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

It bothers me that an otherwise intelligent and thoughtful person who has loudly proclaimed his superior objectivity and centrism so regularly displays an absence of either. 

Like I said, I just really wish you'd be more honest. 

Thanks for the compliment. I am being honest, I wish you could see that and stop trying to prove me wrong constantly. Maybe what rubs you wrong about my political leanings is they aren't necessarily based on anyone or anything. Therefore, you think it comes across as dishonest to you. 

 

To be clear, the rioters that stormed the capital were unequivocally wrong. Trump's rhetoric that incited it was wrong. Anyone defending those actions are wrong. Dem leadership using a post office impeachment for the sole purpose of barring him for running for office again is wrong. None of that is in conflict with the other. I can believe and support all of those ideas. It's not being dishonest in any way.

[McLoofus 35,182]

 

1 minute ago, bigbird said:

Why would this be any different? Until prove otherwise, I'll stick to the  pattern that's been shown.

Because so much of the last 4 years has held true to established patterns?

2 minutes ago, bigbird said:

The mechanisms are in place. They are held every 4 years. 

Mechanisms like protecting our nation's capitol from being overtaken by angry mobs? It needs to be made official. 

I'm assuming that you- like almost all of us- never would have considered a trump presidency possible before 2015 at the earliest. Continuing to underestimate is foolish and dangerous. 

4 minutes ago, bigbird said:

I am being honest, I wish you could see that and stop trying to prove me wrong constantly.

It's not about trying to prove you wrong. 

Quote

Maybe what rubs you wrong about me and my political leanings is they aren't necessarily based on anyone or anything. Therefore, you think it comes across as dishonest to you. 

It's not that they're not based on anyone or anything. It's that you think they are, while telling others how they lack objectivity. 

8 minutes ago, bigbird said:

Trump's rhetoric that incited it was wrong.

The word you're looking for is illegal. This is yet another example of what I'm talking about. If it were a Dem, you would have said illegal. Please be honest with yourself about this, if not me. 

So what should be done about POTUS committing this crime? Nothing? 

Quote

Dem leadership using a post office impeachment for the sole purpose of barring him for running for office again is wrong.

But you said "petty" and "spiteful" before. You've since offered other, tangible, unemotional reasons it might be wrong, and if you'd led with those we'd be having a real conversation about it now. But you insisted on attributing emotions instead of logic you disagreed with. 

Quote

None of that is in conflict with the other. I can believe and support all of those ideas. It's not being dishonest in any way.

No, your opinions are the honest part. 

I guess I won't get a response about how you were wrong when you said that trump not acknowledging the election results wouldn't matter, and how you might want to factor in your future calculations about the risks posed by him being allowed the opportunity to hold power again. 

 

[jj3jordan 2,051]

On 1/7/2021 at 2:07 PM, aubiefifty said:

businessinsider.com

 

Some among America's military allies believe Trump deliberately attempted a coup and may have had help from federal law-enforcement officials

Mitch Prothero

10-13 minutes

---

President Donald Trump at the White House on November 26. Erin Schaff - Pool/Getty Images

• Multiple European security officials told Insider that President Donald Trump appeared to have tacit support among US federal agencies responsible for securing the Capitol complex in Wednesday's coup attempt.
• Insider is reporting this information because it illustrates the serious repercussions of Wednesday's events: Even if they are mistaken, some among America's international military allies are now willing to give credence to the idea that Trump deliberately tried to violently overturn an election and had help from some federal law-enforcement agents.
• "We train alongside the US federal law enforcement to handle these very matters, and it's obvious that large parts of any successful plan were just ignored," one source told us.
• Visit Business Insider's homepage for more stories.

The supporters of President Donald Trump who stormed the Capitol on Wednesday to stop the ratification of President-elect Joe Biden's election victory were attempting a violent coup that multiple European security officials said appeared to have at least tacit support from aspects of the US federal agencies responsible for securing the Capitol complex.

Insider spoke with three officials on Thursday morning: a French police official responsible for public security in a key section of central Paris, and two intelligence officials from NATO countries who directly work in counterterrorism and counterintelligence operations involving the US, terrorism, and Russia.

They said the circumstantial evidence available pointed to what would be openly called a coup attempt in any other nation. None were willing to speak on the record because of the dire nature of the subject.

Read more: Secret Service experts are speculating in group chats about how Trump might be hauled out of the White House if he won't budge on Inauguration Day

While they did not furnish evidence that federal agency officials facilitated the chaos, Insider is reporting this information because it illustrates the scale and seriousness of Wednesday's events: America's international military and security allies are now willing to give serious credence to the idea that Trump deliberately tried to violently overturn an election and that some federal law-enforcement agents — by omission or otherwise — facilitated the attempt.

'Today I am briefing my government that we believe with a reasonable level of certainty that Donald Trump attempted a coup'

One NATO source set the stage, using terms more commonly used to describe unrest in developing countries.

"The defeated president gives a speech to a group of supporters where he tells them he was robbed of the election, denounces his own administration's members and party as traitors, and tells his supporters to storm the building where the voting is being held," the NATO intelligence official said.

"The supporters, many dressed in military attire and waving revolutionary-style flags, then storm the building where the federal law-enforcement agencies controlled by the current president do not establish a security cordon, and the protesters quickly overwhelm the last line of police.

"The president then makes a public statement to the supporters attacking the Capitol that he loves them but doesn't really tell them to stop," the official said. "Today I am briefing my government that we believe with a reasonable level of certainty that Donald Trump attempted a coup that failed when the system did not buckle.

"I can't believe this happened."

A law-enforcement official who trains with US forces believes someone interfered with the proper deployment of officers around Congress

The French police official said they believed that an investigation would find that someone interfered with the deployment of additional federal law-enforcement officials on the perimeter of the Capitol complex; the official has direct knowledge of the proper procedures for security of the facility.

The security of Congress is entrusted to the US Capitol Police, a federal agency that answers to Congress.

It is routine for the Capitol Police to coordinate with the federal Secret Service and the Park Police and local police in Washington, DC, before large demonstrations. The National Guard, commanded by the Department of Defense, is often on standby too.

On Wednesday, however, that coordination was late or absent.

'It's obvious that large parts of any successful plan were just ignored'

"You cannot tell me I don't know what they should have done. I can fly to Washington tomorrow and do that job, just as any police official in Washington can fly to Paris and do mine," the official said. The official directs public security in a central Paris police district filled with government buildings and tourist sites.

"These are not subtle principles" for managing demonstrations, "and they transfer to every situation," the official said. "This is why we train alongside the US federal law enforcement to handle these very matters, and it's obvious that large parts of any successful plan were just ignored."

The National Guard, which was deployed heavily to quell the Black Lives Matter protests in 2020, did not show up to assist the police until two hours after the action started on Wednesday, according to The Associated Press.

Video shows police doing nothing as rioters access the building

One video appeared to show some police officers opening a barrier to allow a group of protesters to get closer to the Capitol dome. Another video showed a police officer allowing a rioter to take a selfie with him inside the Capitol while protesters milled around the building unchecked.

Kim Dine, who was the chief of the Capitol Police from 2012 to 2016, told The Washington Post that he was surprised that the Capitol Police allowed demonstrators on the steps of the Capitol. He said he was also mystified that few rioters were arrested on the spot.

Larry Schaefer, who worked for the Capitol Police for more than 30 years, told ProPublica something similar: "We have a planned, known demonstration that has a propensity for violence in the past and threats to carry weapons — why would you not prepare yourself as we have done in the past?"

The Capitol Police did not immediately respond to Insider's request for comment.

Systematic failures

The French police official detailed multiple lapses they believe were systematic:

1. Large crowds of protesters needed to be managed far earlier by the police, who instead controlled a scene at the first demonstration Trump addressed, then ignored the crowd as it streamed toward the Capitol.
2. "It should have been surrounded, managed, and directed immediately, and that pressure never released."
3. Because the crowd was not managed and directed, the official said, the protesters were able to congregate unimpeded around the Capitol, where the next major failure took place.
4. "It is unthinkable there was not a strong police cordon on the outskirts of the complex. Fences and barricades are useless without strong police enforcement. This is when you start making arrests, targeting key people that appear violent, anyone who attacks an officer, anyone who breaches the barricade. You have to show that crossing the line will fail and end in arrest."
5. "I cannot believe the failure to establish a proper cordon was a mistake. These are very skilled police officials, but they are federal, and that means they ultimately report to the president. This needs to be investigated."
6. "When the crowd reached the steps of the building, the situation was over. The police are there to protect the building from terrorist attacks and crime, not a battalion of infantry. That had to be managed from hundreds of meters away unless the police were willing to completely open fire, and I can respect why they were not."

'Thank God it didn't work, because I can't imagine how hard it would be to sanction the US financial system'

The third official, who works in counterintelligence for a NATO member, agreed that the situation could only be seen as a coup attempt, no matter how poorly considered and likely to fail, and said its implications might be too huge to immediately fathom.

"Thank God it didn't work, because I can't imagine how hard it would be to sanction the US financial system," the official said. By sanctions, he means the imposition of the diplomatic, military, and trade blockages that democratic nations usually reserve for dictatorships.

"The broader damage around the world will be extensive in terms of reputation, and that's why Putin doesn't mind at all that Trump lost. He's got to be happy to take his chips and count his winnings, which from the Trump era will be a shockingly quick decline in American prestige and moral high ground.

"Every moment the Americans spend on their own self-inflicted chaos helps China, it helps Putin, and, to a lesser extent, it helps the mini-dictators like [Turkish President Recep Tayyip] Erdogan and [Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor] Orban, who breathe cynicism about politics, human rights, and democracy as their air," the official said. "They won't miss Trump; they'll be glad to see his drama leave so they can enjoy the poisoned political climate."

Well fidy there was a coup thrown at the president with help from law enforcement. It was orchestrated by Obama and Biden using the FBI CIA NSA and democrats as a whole using fake intelligence and fraud of a FISA court.  When you acknowledge this, maybe someone can have a conversation with you.

[Randman5000 4,226]

Mcconnell should have got with Pence during the lockdown and made plans. They've continually kicked the can down the road.

There's a reckoning in the Republican party and they'll have to cross it four years from now if not now. Pence, Cruz, Pompeo, others who will run for president will have to kiss the ring or run against him. But they'll not win a general election and the Republican party won't want Trump to be the candidate since he's lost this way and knows he's not good for the country. He's also a loser. That reckoning will come. However this is the best way to deal with it. It's messy but politically it will wipe their hands of Trump. They need to impeach him off they were smart rather,

if they are smart...

[aubiefifty 16,766]

3 hours ago, bigbird said:

Watch them impeach him after he leaves so he can never hold federal office again.  It's fine with me if he never holds an office again, but that's a spitefully and petty way to do it.

come on man.....we were lucky he did not do more damage. i just cannot imagine what kind of melt trumpie would have if putin hurt his fragile ego................grins and waves

[aubiefifty 16,766]

24 minutes ago, jj3jordan said:

Well fidy there was a coup thrown at the president with help from law enforcement. It was orchestrated by Obama and Biden using the FBI CIA NSA and democrats as a whole using fake intelligence and fraud of a FISA court.  When you acknowledge this, maybe someone can have a conversation with you.

i will give you my opinion on that once the mueller thing is allowed to finish. he turned his findings over to congress  and told them there was enough there to warrant a deeper and broader investigation. what happened? barr redacted everything so congress could not read the whole report and it died. the investigation was never allowed to continue as mueller recommended. now you can rewrite history anyway you want but the truth is still out there. i find it funny and also stinking to high heaven you guys claim fake this and fake that but will not allow the investigation to continue and be concluded as it was supposed to be. what are you afraid of? and sorry but i am not going to acknowledge a lie. everyone knows what barr did. he put trump above the law.

[bigbird 60,510]

58 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Because so much of the last 4 years has held true to established patterns?

Because any of the last 4 years supercedes decades of precedence?

1 hour ago, McLoofus said:

Mechanisms like protecting our nation's capitol from being overtaken by angry mobs? It needs to be made official. 

Like the capital police or secret service? The mechanisms are there to prevent and protect against that.

1 hour ago, McLoofus said:

The word you're looking for is illegal. This is yet another example of what I'm talking about. If it were a Dem, you would have said illegal. Please be honest with yourself about this, if not me. 

No, the word I used was exactly the word I wanted. I disagree with what Trump said, but he is free to say it. It isn't illegal. Free speech is a bitch. And no, if a GOPer said the exact same thing in the exact same ways, under the exact same circumstances, I would say it was wrong. How about you? Stop trying to twist or put words in my mouth. I say what I mean even if others don't.

1 hour ago, McLoofus said:

But you said "petty" and "spiteful" before. You've since offered other, tangible, unemotional reasons it might be wrong, and if you'd led with those we'd be having a real conversation about it now. But you insisted on attributing emotions instead of logic you disagreed with. 

You don't like the adjectives I attributed to the potential of a post office impeachment, okay but it doesn't change anything about the substance of the message. 

Only one of the two of us sounds emotional about it.

1 hour ago, McLoofus said:

I guess I won't get a response about how you were wrong when you said that trump not acknowledging the election results wouldn't matter, and how you might want to factor in your future calculations about the risks posed by him being allowed the opportunity to hold power again. 

Please, quote me. I believe you are either misremembering or misinterpreting what I said.

[McLoofus 35,182]

25 minutes ago, bigbird said:

Because any of the last 4 years supercedes decades of precedence?

Like the capital police or secret service? The mechanisms are there to prevent and protect against that.

No, the word I used was exactly the word I wanted. I disagree with what Trump said, but he is free to say it. It isn't illegal. Free speech is a bitch. And no, if a GOPer said the exact same thing in the exact same ways, under the exact same circumstances, I would say it was wrong. How about you? Stop trying to twist or put words in my mouth. I say what I mean even if others don't.

You don't like the adjectives I attributed to the potential of a post office impeachment, okay but it doesn't change anything about the substance of the message. 

Only one of the two of us sounds emotional about it.

Please, quote me. I believe you are either misremembering or misinterpreting what I said.

1. Yes! You're talking about the exact same guy that is currently and has been doing it!

2. But they didn't! Are you not aware of what *just*happened??

3. Do you not know what sedition is or not know that it's illegal?

4. Yes, exactly. Your message is the problem.

5. Disappointing.

6. Extremely disappointing. I might actually do that homework. But I'm pretty sure you remember exactly what you said.

 

[Strychnine 1,802]

4 hours ago, bigbird said:

Wasn't it said that HRC would be all over the place during the last 4 years preparing for another run? Was she?  Once out of office, you rarely hear about or from ex-POTUS. That's just the truth. Why would this be any different? Until prove otherwise, I'll stick to the pattern that's been shown.

 

The pattern that has been shown is based on presidents that act, for lack of a better word, presidential.  Most losing candidates, and former presidents, are content to ride off into the sunset or to whatever their next endeavor is.  However, Trump is the kind of fellow you do not apply normal presidential patterns to, as nothing about him fits presidential patterns.  One of the few things Trump has been consistent about, is regularly demonstrating that presidential patterns do not apply to him.  Former presidents did not spend their terms in office rage-tweeting on a daily basis.  The ones that did not have access to Twitter, because it had not been developed yet, most likely would not have either.

I will put it in the context of coaches, since you are one, and they are important to us Auburn folks these days.  Even after you shut them out and hang 56 on them, most coaches can still summon the decency and professionalism to meet you at midfield and make at least a semi-gracious concession.  Trump is the kind of coach that would just walk off the field in disgust, then spend the next three weeks telling everyone that you cheated, and the refs were in on it because they never threw a flag (even though your team actually had several penalties and lost two starters to targeting, which you might want to work on).  The reason Trump will not just go away, is that he cannot exist in a reality where he lost, and he will continue to be low-hanging fruit that news outlets can count on.

His supporters will continue to feed him, because he will continue feeding them, and Fox News will probably feed him too.  Assuming the Republican Party starts distancing itself from Trump, their targets will become Republicans and Democrats.