BO and TJ

[W.E.D 11,070]

22 minutes ago, cbo said:

Even with poor coaching, Bo's mechanics should have improved by now.

How do you improve on something if you're never coached that way?

[Barnacle 9,064]

1 minute ago, McLoofus said:

I'm sure Gus honestly thought it was the right thing to do in much the same way that several here honestly think that Bo hasn't gotten a fair shake from the fan base. 

That's exactly where I'm coming from. I think Gus thought it was the right thing to do, as opposed to abiding by some quasi-contractual obligation. I think he was wrong, obviously, whatever the motivation was. 

[DAG 33,981]

48 minutes ago, metafour said:

So Bo Nix, who averaged 3.4 yards per carry (an NCAA stat that is skewed for QB's because it includes yards lost to sacks btw) is just "adequate", but under your own "evaluation" Dak Prescott - who averaged 3.7 yards per carry in his final season at MSU - is "good"? Very interesting...

Malik Willis is also much better than just "good" - so the issue seems to be that your own scale is wonky and not aligned with how anyone else would gauge "athleticism". Malik Willis is one of the best athletes and runners playing the position currently in the NCAA - if not THE best.

Athleticism at the QB position has nothing to do with how many rushing yards a QB has, or what their YPC average is, or whether or not they are "dual threat" or "pro-style". Do me a favor and go look up Russell Wilson's collegiate rushing stats - its a 3.2 ypc career average. Despite that, Russell Wilson is CLEARLY a GOOD athlete at QB. Josh Allen is another example of a guy who wasn't used a runner at all in his final season at Wyoming, and yet he is CLEARLY an above-average athlete at the position.

Bo Nix is ABOVE AVERAGE by way of evaluation of the athletic traits that he shows on the football field. The term "above average" is in comparison to OTHER quarterbacks - most of whom are not as athletic as he is. It's really not that complicated. He makes athletic plays that most other quarterbacks, at this level, are not able to make. That makes him "above average".

So much to dissect here but starting with the first comment but I won't. Agree to disagree. 

[Dual-Threat Rigby 8,665]

2 minutes ago, Barnacle said:

Not saying you aren't right, and I full heartedly agree that Bo should have been pulled, but I'm still not entirely convinced of the motivation behind the decision to leave him in. 

I mean it was a game where Bo actively affected the team’s ability to win. It was 13-17 for a hot minute, and that was after 2 picks. The kid couldn’t run laterally (which should be a part of this discussion of his athleticism). About 3/4ths of that game, I felt like if we had a QB who could just pull the ball and run forward for 3-4 yards, we probably win convincingly 

After Bo looking bad for 80% of the Oregon game and pretty meh for half of the A&M game and the burner games sandwiched in between, Gus would’ve looked like an absolute buffoon if Joey saved the day  

[McLoofus 35,182]

And yes, we're all guilty of biases and other types of emotion-based reasoning. But there's absolutely no possible rationale Gus could have offered in that situation that would have made sense, and he acknowledged that after the game. Just like with Flash only getting one touch. 

(Dude never even acknowledged that Worm didn't get a single touch.)

[Barnacle 9,064]

Just now, Dual-Threat Rigby said:

I mean it was a game where Bo actively affected the team’s ability to win. It was 13-17 for a hot minute, and that was after 2 picks. The kid couldn’t run laterally (which should be a part of this discussion of his athleticism). About 3/4ths of that game, I felt like if we had a QB who could just pull the ball and run forward for 3-4 yards, we probably win convincingly 

Yeah you'll get no disagreement from me about whether it was the wrong decision. 

[McLoofus 35,182]

1 minute ago, Barnacle said:

That's exactly where I'm coming from. I think Gus thought it was the right thing to do, as opposed to abiding by some quasi-contractual obligation. I think he was wrong, obviously, whatever the motivation was. 

Oh, I didn't mean legal arrangement. I was speaking figuratively. I don't buy that conspiracy stuff at all. I can't imagine there's a single booster that loves Bo half as much as Gus did. 

[DAG 33,981]

1 minute ago, McLoofus said:

And yes, we're all guilty of biases and other types of emotion-based reasoning. But there's absolutely no possible rationale Gus could have offered in that situation that would have made sense, and he acknowledged that after the game. Just like with Flash only getting one touch. 

(Dude never even acknowledged that Worm didn't get a single touch.)

I remember seeing JG about to run on the field and Gus grabbing him..What was that all about ?

[McLoofus 35,182]

Just now, DAG said:

I remember seeing JG about to run on the field and Gus grabbing him..What was that all about ?

Me bringing that exact thing up is what started this. Everyone saw it. That's when I think a lot of us knew that Gus wasn't playing to win, even if he thought he was. 

Same game: Flash, 1 touch. Worm, zero touches.

This is where people who romanticize Gus's and Bo's bromance- and Gus's other aw shucks, good Auburn man tendencies- need to realize that it 100% came at the expense of other, deserving players. 

[W.E.D 11,070]

6 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

(Dude never even acknowledged that Worm didn't get a single touch.)

His player usage was so criminally bad.  From over using players to being too specific to seemingly forgetting out ppl

[Tigerpro2a 5,650]

20 minutes ago, Dual-Threat Rigby said:

Listen....at some point! People are going to admit Bo didn’t win it bc he was the best overall option at that moment. Even if he was a marginally better passer, which is all I saw from the spring tape, Gus...who saw a Cam Newton also give a middling fall camp, in part due to being unable to go live, had to intentionally ignore the athletic portion of Joey’s skill set 

 

The problem is we will never know. So it would be hard to say JG would have been the better option because he didn't get a chance even when Bo struggled. I haven't seen him do anything at UK that makes me think he would have been any better. I don't know how he could have been worse either. 

[cbo 7,844]

2 minutes ago, W.E.D said:

How do you improve on something if you're never coached that way?

Gus obviously could not develop quarterbacks and the entire offense was a mess. But he must have been given proper instruction by the staff on the most basic fundamentals of throwing a ball. It's not like Chad Morris had never seen a QB before. 

In fact, I bet he's been told to fix his bad habits by his high school coaches, his Dad, message board posters, his barber ...

Hopefully a new coach will be more effective. But a lot of this is on Bo. 

[Barnacle 9,064]

Just now, McLoofus said:

I don't buy that conspiracy stuff at all. I can't imagine there's a single booster that loves Bo half as much as Gus did. 

That's the line I'm drawing, and sorry for assuming might have been on the other side. There are some who think that Gus promised the Nix's that Bo would start. I'm skeptical of that theory. Do I think Gus was biased toward Bo? Probably. Did that influence his decision making? Again, probably. I thought Gus believed that Bo was more ready than he was for that moment, and naively expected Bo to turn things around until it was too late, and as @Dual-Threat Rigby said, he doubled down on his decision. 

[Dual-Threat Rigby 8,665]

6 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

And yes, we're all guilty of biases and other types of emotion-based reasoning. But there's absolutely no possible rationale Gus could have offered in that situation that would have made sense, and he acknowledged that after the game. Just like with Flash only getting one touch. 

(Dude never even acknowledged that Worm didn't get a single touch.)

I don’t remember how Schwartz or Worm were used much that season tbh. I’m still of the opinion Boobie was way better than people gave credit too, but Gus did actively mismanage his health with the repeated dives after long runs. It would’ve been interesting to see if the running game could’ve been substantially improved if Gus even used the guy like Chad did. Kam Martin also got pigeon holed into these “thanks for being a senior, now here’s 2 up the middle carries, one sweep and you’re gone for the game”

[cole256 17,053]

10 minutes ago, W.E.D said:

How do you improve on something if you're never coached that way?

You could literally YouTube about throwing off for back foot

[DAG 33,981]

Well the good thing about this coaching staff as I believe they will let the best player play and the structure of this organization is set up as so. Biases won't get in the way of logic.

[W.E.D 11,070]

3 minutes ago, cbo said:

Gus obviously could not develop quarterbacks and the entire offense was a mess. But he must have been given proper instruction by the staff on the most basic fundamentals of throwing a ball. It's not like Chad Morris had never seen a QB before. 

In fact, I bet he's been told to fix his bad habits by his high school coaches, his Dad, message board posters, his barber ...

Hopefully a new coach will be more effective. But a lot of this is on Bo. 

Sure, probably.  But when it's not enforced it doesn't matter.  The first time he's gotten legit QB coaching was this spring.  Gus ruins QBs.  Probably good that he ran off Gatewood if he wants to be a real QB.

We'll see how Bo does in a real offense.

[Dual-Threat Rigby 8,665]

1 minute ago, Tigerpro2a said:

The problem is we will never know. So it would be hard to say JG would have been the better option because he didn't get a chance even when Bo struggled. I haven't seen him do anything at UK that makes me think he would have been any better. I don't know how he could have been worse either. 

But one thing we do know, one strength that clearly was dismissed, is experience. Even as a redshirt freshman who didn’t see much time, we have so many guys that say and display the value of that year. Joey was heralded as this unflappable leader in the locker room, but I’ll admit that might not transition to a real game. There’s enough of a picture to at least depict that Joey was a mentally tough guy. What’s the value of that? Is it a worse passer, better athlete? Do you lose to Oregon but win against LSU and Florida? Who knows the end result, but combine one guy being not as mentally shook and the two being at least comparable, I don’t see how you don’t give the other guy a shot 

[W.E.D 11,070]

3 minutes ago, DAG said:

Well the good thing about this coaching staff as I believe they will let the best player play and the structure of this organization is set up as so. Biases won't get in the way of logic.

We can only hope.  There will be countless things this staff will do better and hopefully it should be night and day

[DAG 33,981]

1 minute ago, W.E.D said:

Sure, probably.  But when it's not enforced it doesn't matter.  The first time he's gotten legit QB coaching was this spring.  Gus ruins QBs.  Probably good that he ran off Gatewood if he wants to be a real QB.

We'll see how Bo does in a real offense.

Can I ask you this? Bo dad is a QB, right? He has coached at the college ranks. Why do you think Bo mechanics is this lacking when it would seem he would've had the right tutelage or at least resources to be set at that portion of his game?

[cbo 7,844]

Just now, W.E.D said:

Sure, probably.  But when it's not enforced it doesn't matter.  The first time he's gotten legit QB coaching was this spring.  Gus ruins QBs.  Probably good that he ran off Gatewood if he wants to be a real QB.

We'll see how Bo does in a real offense.

I do agree that a coaching staff willing to yank him could help. 

[cole256 17,053]

Gus literally didn't want the fanbase to start the play the other QB movement. Only way was to eliminate the other QB's 

Also to what's telling is when jg decided to leave. I said it way back when Bo committed. JG didn't stand a chance on earth in playing here if he didn't get a chance to show what he could do before Bo got here. 

[W.E.D 11,070]

8 minutes ago, DAG said:

Can I ask you this? Bo dad is a QB, right? He has coached at the college ranks. Why do you think Bo mechanics is this lacking when it would seem he would've had the right tutelage or at least resources to be set at that portion of his game?

He's a HS coach.  He's not coaching in college for a reason.  Mechanics from the late 80s early 90s are different than today.  I don't see his dad as being an elite coach

[Tiger Refuge 6,662]

I’m trying to go back and think about all of this stuff in context. If Gus and Co were truly thinking that they were “safe” last year, then perhaps he was willing to give Bo that much more room for error. Thinking perhaps that making mistakes/bad games would pay some type of dividend down the road. Ellifiknow.

[DAG 33,981]

8 minutes ago, W.E.D said:

He's a HS coach.  He's not coaching in college for a reason.  Mechanics from the late 80s early 90s are different than today.  I don't see his dad as being an elite coach

Well he played for the university and he is head coach from a premier school . So there were no resources available ? Really ? Find that hard to believe. It seems like indirectly the blame is being put on the previous coaching staff ( which they do deserve), but with all the premier camps Bo has went to and his dad with their resources is mind boggling he is still struggling with basic mechanics