PSU SANCTIONS AND PATERNO

[rockfordpi 91]

I really feel that PSU pushed this report through and agreed to the sanctions to get it over with.  They are controlling what is happening.  It keeps the accreditation committees away and anymore snooping that might be done.  If they have been covering this up ~ what else have they been covering up all they years that they claimed to be clean?  I think they are using the NCAA and public opinion to be able to move on.  JMHO

I could see that very well being the case

[Ed_ 3]

to me, this wasn't a football related issue.  Yes, it had JoPa's hands on it, but it had nothing to do with how the program was run. It did have to do with how the institution was run.  They didn't cheat on the field, the players weren't payed, there weren't boosters giving away trips, houses, or suits.  The administration of the institution covered up a travesty and for that, the football players are being punished.  To me, that doesn't make sense.  If I grew up a PSU fan and was now a junior on the football team, explain to me why my dream of playing in the rose bowl for PSU should now be taken from me.  

I have to disagree with you Bird.  I see two ways it can be football related.  

First, if PSU had come clean on the allegations in '98 it would have had a significantly negative effect on the overall perception of the program which in turn would have likely had a negative impact on recruiting if Jo Pa had remained.  The NCAA routinely gives out punishments when a school tries to gain an advantage in recruiting so is it such a stretch to say they shouldn't do the same when a school engages in unscrupulous behavior to avoid a deserved recruiting disadvantage?  

Second, you say that this was an institutional problem not one with the program.  The problem with that assertion is that the program was the cause of the institutional problem.  If this had happened with say men's lacrosse or women's track do you think the administration would have listened to one of those sports' head coaches and covered up a crime knowing that they were opening the school to major liability as was documented in emails associated with this instance?  There is no way they would have.  This cover up was a direct result of the level to which the administration, school, alumni, boosters, etc had elevated Jo Pa and the football program to almost a godly level.  When you have a program that has developed that misguided of a culture around a sport, sanctions that don't cripple what that culture holds dear will not suffice to correct the views and actions of those associated with the program, however indirectly.  If you don't believe that look at Bama.  They have the same culture and while they were pissed at the sanctions that were levied on them, those sanctions weren't enough to change the insane culture they have.  I just hope that the NCAA's sanctions will end up achieving with PSU what they didn't with Bama.  

[Ed_ 3]

Thinking about this a slightly different way.

Even associating such heinous crimes with things like year bowl bans, Scholarship losses, and forfeits of a “game”, to me, in a way, sort of marginalize the crime.

For those that truly believe this is a just and proper punishment for what happened, it seems to me that a 4 year bowl ban and 15 scholarships is a bit weak. Why not a 10 year ban and 25 scholarships?

The bowl ban and scholarship reductions do nothing to deter future crimes, do nothing to help the victims, and offer no additional punishment for the criminals.

What it does is throw the institution, the student athletes, student body, fans, and alumni, under the bus for to facilitate what, at least to me,   is essentially a PR move by the NCAA.

To me it is a case of the wrong people punishing the wrong people the wrong way for the wrong thing.

Is the student body, alumni, fans really innocent?  There was an institutional culture that allowed this to occur.  Think back to the riots they had at the school when Jo Pa was fired.  Do you not think that the administration was thinking of those type reactions when they decided to cover this up?  If you are going to fix the problem at PSU then you have to address the culture that allowed it to happen and the only way to do that is through crippling sanctions that will have an impact on everyone associated with the program not just the coaches or the ones that actively participated in the cover up. 

[Newbomb 193]

Ok I will put my opinion out here as plainly as possible.

Did Penn State University's Football program gain a competitive advantage from covering up JS deplorable acts?

Yes...

Did Joe Pa know?

Yes...

Did this competitive advantage allow JoePa to futher pad his wins and the wins of the Penn State Football program?

Yes...

Did members of the Penn State football program act proactivly to end JS deplorable acts?

NO... In fact they allowed him to continue to have full use of the same football facilities in which at least one of the child rapes occured for at least 10 years after the fact!

Did the Admistration of Penn State University know of said child rape on their facilities and not do the ethical and morally right thing in order to keep the football program out of the limelight?

Yes...

I am physically ill at hearing the likes of Brent Muskrat and others say the only person that did anything wrong is JS.  PSU administration did NOT notify law enforcement of the accusations of the GA against JS.  And what makes it even worse is the GA did not interfer with the Rape or at least call LE on his own when nothing happened after JoePa was notified.  Its not my fault I was following my leaders is the same thing the Death Camp leaders said during the Holocaust....

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."  Edmund Burke

[Elephant Tipper 430]

Ok I will put my opinion out here as plainly as possible.

Did Penn State University's Football program gain a competitive advantage from covering up JS deplorable acts?

Yes...

What competitive athletic advantage did PSU derive through child rape ?

[AUwent 3,777]

^Weellll, it kept their reputation sparkling clean, thus keeping their recruiting and program stability intact.

[telling tiger 156]

How is it possible to not understand that not exposing that in your program MAINTAINS your competitive position, THEREBY FALSELY MAINTAINING that same position?

[Newbomb 193]

Ok I will put my opinion out here as plainly as possible.

Did Penn State University's Football program gain a competitive advantage from covering up JS deplorable acts?

Yes...

What competitive athletic advantage did PSU derive through child rape ?

Auburn Football was drug through the mud as a result of Cam Newtons recruitment.  How can we as fans of Auburn not understand how having a former coach that had free reign of facilities in which he raped a child not of had reprecussions on the football program?    Covering up said event gave the program a competitive advantage err at the very least kept them from a competitive disadvantage...

[lionheartkc 6,150]

Here's my take on it... if they had done what was right and reported what was going on, they would have had to fire a chunk of their coaching staff (anyone even remotely connected) and their recruiting would have been a mess for years because mom and dad wouldn't want to send their boys to a school where little boys got raped. 

I believe the punishment being doled out by the NCAA is a good thing because it's causing the school to go through what they tried to avoid by covering up the crime, plus a little more because they covered it up.

I can't agree with anyone who says this has nothing to do with football.  Had there not been a football team, there would not have been a cover-up.  If a school discovered a professor was molesting kids, they would have turned him in and it might have made the local nightly news and then been forgotten.  The cover-up was because it was a coach, in the football facility, and PSU's desire to maintain the reputation of their head coach and football team took precedent over the well being of the children.

I think the NCAA is making the perfect statement.  FOOTBALL IS NOT MORE IMPORTANT. 

I'll be totally honest.  If the tables were turned and it was Auburn that this happened to, I'd be saying the same thing.... and I'd never watch another game again.

[WarEagle10 77]

to me, this wasn't a football related issue.  Yes, it had JoPa's hands on it, but it had nothing to do with how the program was run. It did have to do with how the institution was run.  They didn't cheat on the field, the players weren't payed, there weren't boosters giving away trips, houses, or suits.  The administration of the institution covered up a travesty and for that, the football players are being punished.  To me, that doesn't make sense.  If I grew up a PSU fan and was now a junior on the football team, explain to me why my dream of playing in the rose bowl for PSU should now be taken from me.  

Very well said sir!

[Tiger n Miami AU83 25]

NCAA sanctions are supposed to right a wrong when an unfair competitive advantage has been gained, maintain a level playing field, etc. I do not buy that PSU gained an unfair competive advantage by not reporting child rape. That is just too much of a stretch for me.

Even going down the road that they did not put themselves at a decided disadvantage is a stretch. Trying to justify monumental sanctions because a program did not put itself at a hypothetical and impossible to quantify competitive disadvantage by not reporting crimes is really s straw man's arguement that is difficult to justify.

However, if we want to say the NCAA should punish programs for not reporting crimes (which the criminal justice system is perfectly capable of punishing) because a school did not put itself at a disadvantage by said reporting you get into all types of wild guesswork. For example, say PSU reports Sandusky in 1998, what happens. Here is where I get into the wild hypothetical guesswork that some are saying these penalties are justified by... IMO, Sandusky is immediately fired and criminal proceedings and investigations begin. No one knew about it and when they did, it was reported, so no one is fired. Sandusky is justfiably crucified by all. The blame does not shift to PSU as an institution and the fall out is relatively minor to PSU as an institution because they did the right thing in immediate reporting and handing the matter over to the authorities. Yeah, Sandusky gets destroyed by the public (as he should), however PSU reported the matter immediately, has a sterling track record, and the actions are all limited to one crazed lunatic who the criminal justice system will attack will full force.

That arguement just does not make sense to me (the huge penalties being due to not being put at some sort of hypothetical disadvantage that is impossible to logically quantify).

I still believe this was a weak decision by the NCAA where they followed the mob mentality because it was the easy road to follow with the end result having no positive impact other than to satisfy the publics desire for revenge. A revenge the public does not seem to believe is met by merely punishing the guilty parties.

[Tiger n Miami AU83 25]

By the way, I agree with the "football is not more important" statement explicity and implicitly made by the NCAA here.

However, that is sorta like screaming at the top of your lungs into a bullhorn that the sky is blue. Everyone knows that. No one in their right mind is going to say football is more important than severe child abuse. Yeah a handful of individuals did say that, and they will go sit in jail and be ruined now for their actions. And again there is no deterrance factor here that is not accomplished by the criminal justice system IMO.

[WarEagle10 77]

My concern is....say a school has a large number of player's arrested during the course of a year. Will the NCAA claim "lack of institutional control" and then penalize said school? IMO due process was not afforded PSU by the NCAA. They went off of one report that had a lot of speculation and theory in it. This just open's a possible huge pandora's box, on so many different situation's, in the future. That is my concern anyway.

[augolf1716 21,305]

to me, this wasn't a football related issue.  Yes, it had JoPa's hands on it, but it had nothing to do with how the program was run. It did have to do with how the institution was run.  They didn't cheat on the field, the players weren't payed, there weren't boosters giving away trips, houses, or suits.  The administration of the institution covered up a travesty and for that, the football players are being punished.  To me, that doesn't make sense.  If I grew up a PSU fan and was now a junior on the football team, explain to me why my dream of playing in the rose bowl for PSU should now be taken from me.  

Very well said sir!

^^This^^

[Newbomb 193]

My concern is....say a school has a large number of player's arrested during the course of a year. Will the NCAA claim "lack of institutional control" and then penalize said school? IMO due process was not afforded PSU by the NCAA. They went off of one report that had a lot of speculation and theory in it. This just open's a possible huge pandora's box, on so many different situation's, in the future. That is my concern anyway.

The "Lack of Insititutional Control" was the coverup of the crime....

[rockfordpi 91]

Hopefully my last post on this topic.

This was a very bad situation and, though I don't agree with them all, I do respect everyone else's opinion here on this matter.

One thing I always preach is that "Where there is not consistency, their can never be credibility".

The HYPOTHETICAL question I am wondering about now is, had this occurred at AU, how many people here would have still maintained that the NCAA was correct and that the punishment was proper and deserved? I am just curious.

Some may try to take the easy way and say that this could not have happened at AU. However, if it happened at PSU, under the right set of circumstances, it could have happened anywhere. There was a time when Joe PA was one of the most respected and revered coaches in America, a man of the highest integrity and character, a man who symbolized all that was right with college football. If we are to believe the accounts as given, Joe Pa fooled the nation.

[AUGoo 2,664]

Hopefully my last post on this topic.

This was a very bad situation and, though I don't agree with them all, I do respect everyone else's opinion here on this matter.

One thing I always preach is that "Where there is not consistency, their can never be credibility".

The HYPOTHETICAL question I am wondering about now is, had this occurred at AU, how many people here would have still maintained that the NCAA was correct and that the punishment was proper and deserved? I am just curious.

Some may try to take the easy way and say that this could not have happened at AU. However, if it happened at PSU, under the right set of circumstances, it could have happened anywhere. There was a time when Joe PA was one of the most respected and revered coaches in America, a man of the highest integrity and character, a man who symbolized all that was right with college football. If we are to believe the accounts as given, Joe Pa fooled the nation.

Should this have happened here?  I would call these penalties too easy.  My shame would be deep and powerful.  I might even call for the renaming of the institution after 5 years of no Football.  To be forever associated with Pedophile U. would be a horrendous burden.  There are things more important than sports, and looking out for the innocent is pretty darn high on my priority list. I would call for the death penalty on my own institution for something this aggregious.

[lionheartkc 6,150]

By the way, I agree with the "football is not more important" statement explicity and implicitly made by the NCAA here.

However, that is sorta like screaming at the top of your lungs into a bullhorn that the sky is blue. Everyone knows that. No one in their right mind is going to say football is more important than severe child abuse. Yeah a handful of individuals did say that, and they will go sit in jail and be ruined now for their actions. And again there is no deterrance factor here that is not accomplished by the criminal justice system IMO.

Sadly, if that were the case, then people who are arguably in their right minds wouldn't have covered up child abuse to protect the reputation of a football program... just like a certain person wouldn't have dumped a controlled chemical on trees because his team lost... or hords of fans wouldn't destroy property to celebrate a win... I could go on.  There are FAR too many people in this country who really do believe that football is more important and are willing to do unthinkable things to benefit their favorite program.

There is a deterance factor... nothing is a bigger deterent than pressure from ones peers. If the people raking in the money from football, the fans who worship it, and the boosters who support it all know that crap like this results in serious damage to the program, they aren't going to give the head coach power like PSU did with Joe Pa.  Other than at a certain other school in Alabama, I have a feeling a lot of power that some coaches once had may now be gone in order to provide some level of oversight.

Think about it this way, if a certain school lost a bowl appearance of some scholarships because one of their fans poisoned some trees, do you think he would be a folk hero now or do you think no football fan would ever destroy his rivals tradition again?

[lionheartkc 6,150]

Hopefully my last post on this topic.

This was a very bad situation and, though I don't agree with them all, I do respect everyone else's opinion here on this matter.

One thing I always preach is that "Where there is not consistency, their can never be credibility".

The HYPOTHETICAL question I am wondering about now is, had this occurred at AU, how many people here would have still maintained that the NCAA was correct and that the punishment was proper and deserved? I am just curious.

Some may try to take the easy way and say that this could not have happened at AU. However, if it happened at PSU, under the right set of circumstances, it could have happened anywhere. There was a time when Joe PA was one of the most respected and revered coaches in America, a man of the highest integrity and character, a man who symbolized all that was right with college football. If we are to believe the accounts as given, Joe Pa fooled the nation.

I maintain my previous stance... if this level of corruption were to happen at AU, I'd renounce my alumni status and would welcome any penalty that the NCAA, federal government, or any other organization wanted to pile on.  I hold Auburn to the highest standard, and for this to happen there would devistate me.

[alexava 6,973]

am i the only person in the world that thinks if the right things were done in the very beginning that it would not have been that much of a rukus? i mean you see on the news one day that an accusation was made against a former coach the school/paterno called the sherriff, police chief, or state to report and ask for a investigation then in 3 or 4 months it dies down and 10 years later no one outside of the big 10 even remembers it. i think our society has figured out(not accepted the behavior but knows it happens) pedaphiles exist and dont blame the people who happen to be associated with them if they didnt know about it. the cover up was awful but i think unnessessary.

[lionheartkc 6,150]

am i the only person in the world that thinks if the right things were done in the very beginning that it would not have been that much of a rukus? i mean you see on the news one day that an accusation was made against a former coach the school/paterno called the sherriff, police chief, or state to report and ask for a investigation then in 3 or 4 months it dies down and 10 years later no one outside of the big 10 even remembers it. i think our society has figured out(not accepted the behavior but knows it happens) pedaphiles exist and dont blame the people who happen to be associated with them if they didnt know about it. the cover up was awful but i think unnessessary.

You may be right... I think the one factor that may have made it blow up, no matter what, is that the abuse took place in the football facilities.  There would be a lot of questions as to how a child could have ended up alone, in the showers, with a coach.

[telling tiger 156]

am i the only person in the world that thinks if the right things were done in the very beginning that it would not have been that much of a ruckus? i mean you see on the news one day that an accusation was made against a former coach the school/paterno called the sheriff, police chief, or state to report and ask for a investigation then in 3 or 4 months it dies down and 10 years later no one outside of the big 10 even remembers it. i think our society has figured out(not accepted the behavior but knows it happens) pedaphiles exist and don't blame the people who happen to be associated with them if they didn't know about it. the cover up was awful but i think unnecessary.

I wish Joe Pa had lived to show them what a real ruckus is when he could have and should have been facing criminals charges. A religious, "leader" and I use that term grudgingly, was sentenced yesterday in Pennsylvania to 6 years in prison for the EXACT same thing paterno did. THE EXACT SAME THING.

All either one of them had to do was REPORT it. You know, it is known as doing the right thing. Penn state has problems, no one caused those problems except the people at Penn State. Deal with it.

[collector527 0]

]

[collector527 0]

am i the only person in the world that thinks if the right things were done in the very beginning that it would not have been that much of a rukus? i mean you see on the news one day that an accusation was made against a former coach the school/paterno called the sherriff, police chief, or state to report and ask for a investigation then in 3 or 4 months it dies down and 10 years later no one outside of the big 10 even remembers it. i think our society has figured out(not accepted the behavior but knows it happens) pedaphiles exist and dont blame the people who happen to be associated with them if they didnt know about it. the cover up was awful but i think unnessessary.

No I stated this on an earlier page.  I fully believe that if Joe Paterno and Penn State would have admitted this in the beginning that they would have been praised by many for doing the right thing and would have no penalty at all from the NCAA. Yes it would still look bad for Penn State but instead of death this would have been a bruise for them.  Joe Pa would likely have been praised for not allowing this to continue and would be completely innocent. Add in the fact that Joe Paterno was still a feared coach at that time and people really wanted to play for him back then. So I just do not see it hurting them much in the overall if they report it then.  Now the are irrelevant.

[msg6367 1]

am i the only person in the world that thinks if the right things were done in the very beginning that it would not have been that much of a ruckus? i mean you see on the news one day that an accusation was made against a former coach the school/paterno called the sheriff, police chief, or state to report and ask for a investigation then in 3 or 4 months it dies down and 10 years later no one outside of the big 10 even remembers it. i think our society has figured out(not accepted the behavior but knows it happens) pedaphiles exist and don't blame the people who happen to be associated with them if they didn't know about it. the cover up was awful but i think unnecessary.

I wish Joe Pa had lived to show them what a real ruckus is when he could have and should have been facing criminals charges. A religious, "leader" and I use that term grudgingly, was sentenced yesterday in Pennsylvania to 6 years in prison for the EXACT same thing paterno did. THE EXACT SAME THING.

All either one of them had to do was REPORT it. You know, it is known as doing the right thing. Penn state has problems, no one caused those problems except the people at Penn State. Deal with it.

okay...you've made your point (numerous times).  The real problem that most have with the penalties is that your punishing those at PSU now and not the ones that participated in the coverup.  Besides, possibly Curly, has anyone else even been charged with a crime to go through the real "judicial system."

Additionally, you seem to take the Freeh report as the gospel to incriminate JoePa.  Personally, I won't attack the deceased because he's not here to defend himself and respond to these accusations.