PSU SANCTIONS AND PATERNO

[telling tiger 156]

I'm willing to wager, that jailing a murderer doesn't bring back the dead either. I won't say it shouldn't be done.

If anything it will serve as notice to Penn State and any other all consumed and powerful sports program that child sexual abuse is something you do not turn a blind eye on to preserve the strength of your program.

I'm taking a guess that they got that message today. If not, they should have to learn it again.

[Elephant Tipper 430]

Anyone want to take a stab at what these penalties actually accomplish?

They scare the hell out of any program that allows perverts to look cross-eyed at little boys.  The affected program will suffer for more than a decade for its deceit.

[Tiger n Miami AU83 25]

Anyone want to take a stab at what these penalties actually accomplish?

They scare the hell out of any program that allows perverts to look cross-eyed at little boys.  The affected program will suffer for more than a decade for its deceit.

I cannot buy the deterrant arguement in the case. My (admittadly feeble) mind hasn't reached that conclusion though I am open to being convinced of it.

If I was in the position of a coach or administrator that witnessed this type of abuse at another school in the future, I do not feel that the possibility of NCAA sanctions would even occur to me. The people that allowed this to happen by turning a blind eye and covering it up are, in all likelihood, going to end up in a small confined space for an extended period of time. Therefore if I was in a position where I had to decide if I wanted to try to cover up something like this in the future, I think I would be more concerned with that small confined space and not really care too much about some sanctions to a football team down the road.

Can't see the NCAA's actions today as being any type of deterrant in the future for sexual child abuse or covering it up. Now, criminal proceeding and jail, I can see that as a deterrant.

[lionheartkc 6,150]

Anyone want to take a stab at what these penalties actually accomplish?

It makes it abundantly clear to any program with skeletons in it's closet that they better make them known, or when they are found they will regret hiding them in the first place.  It also establishes that putting football before the welfare of others will cost you your football team.  Finally, it encourages people to be more aware of what's going on and speak up.

I, for one, am all for it.

[WarEagle10 77]

Anyone want to take a stab at what these penalties actually accomplish?

They scare the hell out of any program that allows perverts to look cross-eyed at little boys.  The affected program will suffer for more than a decade for its deceit.

Not just that IMO. Any program that tries to hide laws being broken, so not to sully their good name, will pay a severely heavy price. This is such a unique situation. I go back and forth on my feelings about the NCAA punishment. It's just a sad story any way you look at it.

[around4ever 4,139]

Anyone want to take a stab at what these penalties actually accomplish?

They reiterate that "Lack of Institutional Control" can be far reaching.  The rule encompasses many areas without specifically stating the areas encompassed. 

[telling tiger 156]

I do not think it serves as any kind of deterrent to the program. I do think it will insure that any program not stringently protecting the children who come into contact with their program, will dang well do so now or else.

[Tiger n Miami AU83 25]

Anyone want to take a stab at what these penalties actually accomplish?

They scare the hell out of any program that allows perverts to look cross-eyed at little boys.  The affected program will suffer for more than a decade for its deceit.

Not just that IMO. Any program that tries to hide laws being broken, so not to sully their good name, will pay a severely heavy price. This is such a unique situation. I go back and forth on my feelings about the NCAA punishment. It's just a sad story any way you look at it.

I am just not sure the penalties today do anything to add to the deterrant factor. Some things are a lot more important than football (obviously). When you say "any program" that hides laws being broken, you are really talking about a select group of individuals. Those responsible are (hopefully) going to pay with their freedom and lives (financially, socially, etc). Do the sanctions to a football program, however severe, really matter to them at this point? Would it had mattered back then when they did what they did? I am not sure about that.

Maybe in the future, if someone in power is in a position to cover up a horrible crime in a football program, they will think back to this and not do it. I still think they will think more about what happens to the people that were responsible and the fact their lives (or a good portion of their lives) was forefeit due to the decisions they made and the NCAA penalties will be an insignificant factor in their descion making process.

[Tiger n Miami AU83 25]

Anyone want to take a stab at what these penalties actually accomplish?

They reiterate that "Lack of Institutional Control" can be far reaching.  The rule encompasses many areas without specifically stating the areas encompassed. 

I know. I have sorta moved past the jurisdictional aspects of this and am now just wondering about the end results and what will be accomplished with these sanctions.

I think I stated earlier I do not really mind PSU being hammered as I do not care much about PSU's football program one way or the other. I am just looking for what these penalties really accomplish. I am having a hard time with the deterrant part. I have something that I think is the base of the penalties or core reason for them, but it isn't really part of the discussion

[lionheartkc 6,150]

Anyone want to take a stab at what these penalties actually accomplish?

They reiterate that "Lack of Institutional Control" can be far reaching.  The rule encompasses many areas without specifically stating the areas encompassed. 

I know. I have sorta moved past the jurisdictional aspects of this and am now just wondering about the end results and what will be accomplished with these sanctions.

I think I stated earlier I do not really mind PSU being hammered as I do not care much about PSU's football program one way or the other. I am just looking for what these penalties really accomplish. I am having a hard time with the deterrant part. I have something that I think is the base of the penalties or core reason for them, but it isn't really part of the discussion

Think of it this way... say they did nothing.  Say they punish the guilty parties through the courts but nothing happens to the school or football program.  Now, look down the road at another school that has something to hide.  They get caught and what do they do... throw a couple of coaches under the bus and go on their merry way.  Don't tell me you don't think bama would do it.  They'd toss out whoever they thought they didn't need to win, as if they were the only ones involved, and they would go back to football.  This sets the precedent that, if you cover something up to protect your team and your reputation, you are risking your program. I think every single school that lives and dies by their football program is paying attention.

[Wareagletd 0]

Wow. There goes my Penn State 2015 National Champs prediction.

But Penn State got what they deserved. Any man/company/school/institution that covers up another man's criminal actions should be punished. If this would've been one kid, I would think the penalties were too severe but it's not. He is a repeat offender and the General Population will have fun with Sandusky.

[telling tiger 156]

$12 million a year for 5 years. No bowl appearances. Scholarship limits. Forfeited wins. If that doesn't deter, what would?

If $60 million isn't a deterrent for someone, I'd like to ask them for a HUGE grant. They have more money than sense needed to handle it.

[Tiger n Miami AU83 25]

Anyone want to take a stab at what these penalties actually accomplish?

They reiterate that "Lack of Institutional Control" can be far reaching.  The rule encompasses many areas without specifically stating the areas encompassed. 

I know. I have sorta moved past the jurisdictional aspects of this and am now just wondering about the end results and what will be accomplished with these sanctions.

I think I stated earlier I do not really mind PSU being hammered as I do not care much about PSU's football program one way or the other. I am just looking for what these penalties really accomplish. I am having a hard time with the deterrant part. I have something that I think is the base of the penalties or core reason for them, but it isn't really part of the discussion

Think of it this way... say they did nothing.  Say they punish the guilty parties through the courts but nothing happens to the school or football program.  Now, look down the road at another school that has something to hide.  They get caught and what do they do... throw a couple of coaches under the bus and go on their merry way.  Don't tell me you don't think bama would do it.  They'd toss out whoever they thought they didn't need to win, as if they were the only ones involved, and they would go back to football.  This sets the precedent that, if you cover something up to protect your team and your reputation, you are risking your program. I think every single school that lives and dies by their football program is paying attention.

I buy most of that line of thinking, but I still think the people doing the covering up are going to be concerned about the criminal aspect and punishment they would face in the criminal courts and not be concerned about the repercussions to the program. You have to deter the people in the decision making positions and I think the criminal punishment is what is affective in that arena.

I like the bama example though. Maybe the board of trustees doesn't care about the coach or AD going down as long as the program is ok. Still though the people in the position of doing the covering up that are ultimately culpable aren't so worried about the NCAA no matter what the penalties may be.

[Tiger n Miami AU83 25]

$12 million a year for 5 years. No bowl appearances. Scholarship limits. Forfeited wins. If that doesn't deter, what would?

If $60 million isn't a deterrent for someone, I'd like to ask them for a HUGE grant. They have more money than sense needed to handle it.

No amount of money is worth one's freedom. Sorta my point. The criminal consequences are the deterrant. You could make the penalties $5 billion. Does that deter the responsible parties more than a life in prison?

By the way, sorta not really on point with my deterrant aspect, but on point with the end results... I think the civil penalties that ultimately result will exceed the NCAA penalties by a lot. PSU's endowment is massive and most certainly on the table for the courts to go after. The civil penalties could reach into the hundred of millions.

[walleyau22 0]

I agree with you, MSG.  The forfeiture of victories is silly. It does nothing.  Jopa's rep is forever tarnished, how does removing those victories, won by the players, an effective punishment?  Fining the university and reducing the schollies punishes the school for their involvement.  Vacating wins only punishes the players that are long gone and had no involvement in the first place.

Personally, I think the part of vacating all of those wins is in anticipation of PSU's appeal to this decision.  PSU appeals, the NCAA says "okay, we'll drop the vacating the wins penalty, and everything else stands".  This way, the NCAA has a compromise built into the judgement they handed down.

Vacating the wins is kinda silly, if you ask me, but the NCAA is trying to send a strict message that covering up severe issues will not be tolerated. 

PSU can not appeal. This is what they get. No if's, and's, or but's.

correct, they signed off on it already.

Like I said 3 days ago the best thing for PSU was take whatever sanctions would be handed down sign off on them and start trying to go forward. IMO PSU would have accepted whatever the NCAA was going to give them even the death penalty. If PSU tried to fight any sanction the negative PR would have been overwhelming

Do they really have anything to lose in this regard? They are taking it for PR purposes, but behind closed doors, I bet they would off Emmert in 2 seconds flat.

[Rabern57 0]

How many scholarships did PSU lose? I keep hearing different numbers.

[Tiger n Miami AU83 25]

I guess my "end of the day" thoughts are as follows:

1. I am not sure there is a net positive impact from these penalties (outside of the money going to charities which could be done anyway and in greater magnitude with a more functional program). The negatives impacts are pretty tangible to the players across all sports at PSU as well as vendors, suppliers, etc. Then the less tangible negative impact to the students and community that really played no part in this. By the way, I think the hero worship angle of Paterno is a pretty weak area to try to lay blame for this situation, though some may disagree.

2. I do think the NCAA grabbed a lot of power today and took the easy way out. I do not think they took any type of stand, but rather took the easier path along which the mob mentality sometimes runs.

3. I think the root of this decision is vengeance.

Now, as to #3, I am all for some good ole fashion revenge and vengeance at times and I think that is what is at the core of this. I do not see that it serves any type of positive purpose outside of satisfying something of a mob mentality and a desire for retribution, but sometimes that is purpose enough. I think this desire for vengeance (that I perceive) is misdirected, but I do not see a good direction for it to be directed outside of the criminal and civil courts which do not appear to be enough to appease the public right now. So, sometimes the strong must shoulder this need for revenge by the public. And PSU is a strong institution (particularly financially where the brunt of the punishment will actually be felt). Is PSU strong enough to take it? I think so, but am not 100% sure as the civil penalties are likely to be massive. The football program is effectively crippled for a decade. Have to wait and see what the monetary toll from the courts turns out to be.

[around4ever 4,139]

Powerful Statement by SI.

[dpwspringer 0]

How many scholarships did PSU lose? I keep hearing different numbers.

What is being reported is they have a limit of 15 new scholarships per year for the next 4 years.  To go with that there maximum number of total scholarships will be limited to 65 starting two years from now and continuing for 3(?) years.  That is reduced from the 25 per year and 85 total so you hear loses of 10 and 20 scholarships.  The 10 is the per year reduction and the 20 is in total scholarship numbers.

[Newbomb 193]

How many scholarships did PSU lose? I keep hearing different numbers.

What is being reported is they have a limit of 15 new scholarships per year for the next 4 years.  To go with that there maximum number of total scholarships will be limited to 65 starting two years from now and continuing for 3(?) years.  That is reduced from the 25 per year and 85 total so you hear loses of 10 and 20 scholarships.  The 10 is the per year reduction and the 20 is in total scholarship numbers.

So basically depending on how many playes move before this season they may not even have a signing class...

[PastorChris 0]

I guess my "end of the day" thoughts are as follows:

1. I am not sure there is a net positive impact from these penalties (outside of the money going to charities which could be done anyway and in greater magnitude with a more functional program). The negatives impacts are pretty tangible to the players across all sports at PSU as well as vendors, suppliers, etc. Then the less tangible negative impact to the students and community that really played no part in this. By the way, I think the hero worship angle of Paterno is a pretty weak area to try to lay blame for this situation, though some may disagree.

2. I do think the NCAA grabbed a lot of power today and took the easy way out. I do not think they took any type of stand, but rather took the easier path along which the mob mentality sometimes runs.

3. I think the root of this decision is vengeance.

Now, as to #3, I am all for some good ole fashion revenge and vengeance at times and I think that is what is at the core of this. I do not see that it serves any type of positive purpose outside of satisfying something of a mob mentality and a desire for retribution, but sometimes that is purpose enough. I think this desire for vengeance (that I perceive) is misdirected, but I do not see a good direction for it to be directed outside of the criminal and civil courts which do not appear to be enough to appease the public right now. So, sometimes the strong must shoulder this need for revenge by the public. And PSU is a strong institution (particularly financially where the brunt of the punishment will actually be felt). Is PSU strong enough to take it? I think so, but am not 100% sure as the civil penalties are likely to be massive. The football program is effectively crippled for a decade. Have to wait and see what the monetary toll from the courts turns out to be.

1. I suppose the positive impact is difficult to see right now, but that is always the case when punitive judgment is passed down. I know the following Bible verse does not address the exact same situation, but I think it serves to remind us that the positive impact usually only comes with perspective: "For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it." (Hebrews 12:11) The point though is that if discipline is administered well (and only God knows if this is "good" discipline), then the fruit of it will be shown later.

And I think the hero worship truly is at the heart of this issue. The university presidents as a group have at least a mild dislike of the power and influence athletics have over academics in their institutions, and they used this opportunity to call attention to the problem (as they likely see it). Of course it is debatable if this is indeed retribution or revenge as you state in point 3, but I really do not think there is any way to deny that the phrase "football is king" applies to virtually every major D-1 school. Nor is it possible to deny that coverups happen all the time to protect what matters most to people. Since football is king, then coaches are the princes and schools are tempted all the time to protect their idols and investments. In this case, PSU's admin covered up a heinous crime because they "worshiped" football and the prince of the program: Joe Paterno.

2. They certainly grabbed a lot of power, but there was no easy way out for anyone. This whole situation has grown too big for any person or entity to escape unscathed. This is truly a "damned if you do... damned if you don't" dilemma.

3. Certainly possible... but it is so difficult to judge motives. The actions themselves are all we can really evaluate, and though they were harsh, it does seem that their message is clear: this coverup by university leaders is deplorable behavior that is not acceptable for NCAA institutions.

This whole affair is horrible and not easy to reconcile. I just hope that this will truly be the wakeup call for college football that Emmert thinks this will be. If this does lead to a reformation of the values and priorities of AD's and coaches and even fans then this will be a positive.

[rockfordpi 91]

Who did they punish:

PSU, the entire student body, all the alumni, about 1 million or so fans for 10 or so years. All people who had no control over the situation and no benefit or possible benefit from the rule violation.

Who did they NOT punish?  The criminals.

This in no way hurts Paterno, Sandusky, or any of  the other people who have already been fired and or are about to be prosecuted.

I agree with what someone else said, this is not a deterrence. Criminals and potential criminals are not hurt by this. A 60 million dollar fine,  4 year bowl ban, and recruiting restrictions do not do any more damage to the reputations of the people who have already been fired and are about to be prosecuted. It certainly does not hurt those that go to jail.

If people who hide child molesters are not deterred by years in jail, they certainly are not going to be deterred by a bowl ban.

This was a political and public opinion hanging. This is vengeance, it is wanting to make some entity pay for what truly was a heinous crime, without real regard as to  WHO they make pay, just as long as SOMEONE pays.

That is all well and good as long as you are not the entity who has to suffer for the crimes of another. Just remember, if they can do it to these innocent people (students, fans, alumni), they can also do it to you.

[Elephant Tipper 430]

Who did they punish:

PSU, the entire student body, all the alumni, about 1 million or so fans for 10 or so years. All people who had no control over the situation and no benefit or possible benefit from the rule violation.

Who did they NOT punish?  The criminals.

This in no way hurts Paterno, Sandusky, or any of  the other people who have already been fired and or are about to be prosecuted.

I agree with what someone else said, this is not a deterrence. Criminals and potential criminals are not hurt by this. A 60 million dollar fine,  4 year bowl ban, and recruiting restrictions do not do any more damage to the reputations of the people who have already been fired and are about to be prosecuted. It certainly does not hurt those that go to jail.

If people who hide child molesters are not deterred by years in jail, they certainly are not going to be deterred by a bowl ban.

This was a political and public opinion hanging. This is vengeance, it is wanting to make some entity pay for what truly was a heinous crime, without real regard as to  WHO they make pay, just as long as SOMEONE pays.

That is all well and good as long as you are not the entity who has to suffer for the crimes of another. Just remember, if they can do it to these innocent people, they can also do it to you.

 

You make good points rockford, that those who are the criminals are not punished by the NCAA's actions, although one is dead, another incarcerated and the others have yet to be tried.  The argument I made earlier is that those who covered up Sandusky's crimes should have been tried by the courts before the NCAA passed judgment on PSU.  Greater clarity would have been provided and support given by the public.

[dpwspringer 0]

How many scholarships did PSU lose? I keep hearing different numbers.

What is being reported is they have a limit of 15 new scholarships per year for the next 4 years.  To go with that there maximum number of total scholarships will be limited to 65 starting two years from now and continuing for 3(?) years.  That is reduced from the 25 per year and 85 total so you hear loses of 10 and 20 scholarships.  The 10 is the per year reduction and the 20 is in total scholarship numbers.

So basically depending on how many playes move before this season they may not even have a signing class...

I don't recall what was said about the reduction in the total number of scholarships are for this first year. This is a transitional year to go from 85 and get to 65 in two years.  Likely the number for this year is 75.  If it is 75 they will likely have a signing class and have room for close to 15 new scholarship players.

[dpwspringer 0]

Who did they punish:

PSU, the entire student body, all the alumni, about 1 million or so fans for 10 or so years. All people who had no control over the situation and no benefit or possible benefit from the rule violation.

Who did they NOT punish?  The criminals.

This in no way hurts Paterno, Sandusky, or any of  the other people who have already been fired and or are about to be prosecuted.

I agree with what someone else said, this is not a deterrence. Criminals and potential criminals are not hurt by this. A 60 million dollar fine,  4 year bowl ban, and recruiting restrictions do not do any more damage to the reputations of the people who have already been fired and are about to be prosecuted. It certainly does not hurt those that go to jail.

If people who hide child molesters are not deterred by years in jail, they certainly are not going to be deterred by a bowl ban.

This was a political and public opinion hanging. This is vengeance, it is wanting to make some entity pay for what truly was a heinous crime, without real regard as to  WHO they make pay, just as long as SOMEONE pays.

That is all well and good as long as you are not the entity who has to suffer for the crimes of another. Just remember, if they can do it to these innocent people, they can also do it to you.

   

You make good points rockford, that those who are the criminals are not punished by the NCAA's actions, although one is dead, another incarcerated and the others have yet to be tried.  The argument I made earlier is that those who covered up Sandusky's crimes should have been tried by the courts before the NCAA passed judgment on PSU.  Greater clarity would have been provided and support given by the public.

The NCAA has always punished institutions for what individuals representing, acting on behalf of, or acting to benefit that institution did.  That is no different here.  The innocent get punished routinely when the NCAA dishes out punishments.