PSU SANCTIONS AND PATERNO

[AUwent 3,776]

This calls for a little Led Zeppelin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1yUvdQnERk

[Tiger n Miami AU83 25]

By the way, appologies for my inabilty to spell Emmert. I'm not the greatest speller anyway (thank you spell check) and I just got home this evening and learned about this story. 

[Tigerbelle 5,299]

Personally, I think the NCAA is making a huge mistake and over stepping their bounds MASSIVELY. IMO, the NCAA has no place here. They have no precedent. They have no authority. They are not within their jurisdiction (so to speak) and they are not operating within the confines of their purpose and existance as an institution at all. We have criminal courts to handle these types of matters. The NCAA is in the wrong galaxy here (not just zip code), and I cannot understand what Emmerrit is doing. At all.

PSU should fight the NCAA every step of the way on this one.

And by the way, I am not coming from a point of caring one bit what happens to PSU. I am coming from a much broader perspective of the NCAA operating WAY WAY out of its bounds in an area that has nothing to do with their actual purpose. It is a horrible idea, what they are doing and if they want to get involved with stuff like this (crimes and felonies) what type of precedent does it set, and where does it begin and end?

This is exactly why I asked that question in the first place. If the NCAA is allowed to set this precedent, it will happen again and again. And pretty soon there will be no investigations, just punishments.

I agree with you both.

Emmert is a disaster.

[dpwspringer 0]

There was a criminal trial with witnesses testimony and a jury verdict.  There was also the Freeh Report.  This has had an incredible amount of investigation.  The facts are pretty well known and difficult for PSU to dispute.  PSU commissioned the Freeh Report which means it is what PSU says happened as far as the NCAA is concerned.

http://www.thefreehreportonpsu.com/Press_Release_07_12_12.pdf

Philadelphia, PA, July 12, 2012 – Louis Freeh today issued prepared remarks in

conjunction with today’s publication of his report of the investigation into the facts and

circumstances of the actions of The Pennsylvania State University surrounding the child

abuse committed by a former employee, Gerald A. Sandusky. Mr. Freeh will summarize

these remarks during his press conference at 10 a.m. today.

Mr. Freeh and his law firm, Freeh Sporkin & Sullivan, LLP, were retained in November

2011 on behalf of the Special Investigations Task Force of the Board of Trustees of The

Pennsylvania State University to conduct the independent investigation.

And here is the report: http://www.thefreehreportonpsu.com/REPORT_FINAL_071212.pdf

Pay attention to its title.

[FHeal 4]

All schools agree to the bylaws, so therefore  the NCAA has a right to uphold any parts that a member institution fails to uphold.  There's a posted section of these bylaws (the whole is easily found online) back on page 2.  Penn State (The School) violated  these, and failed to educate it's staff afterward. These could very well be violations of  2.4, 2.4a. and 2.4b, .  If so thereby the NCAA would have rights to act under 2.8.  of it's bylaws.

I believe (IMHO) some are confusing legal remedy under the law... with enforcement of articles in what's normally called a 'morals clause'.   This organization (the NCAA) has that base covered, and is quite likely to enforce this clause as a breech in it's rules of conduct.  Not under the guise of adjudication of criminal law, which is (most) certainly reserved for our judicial system.  This is a matter of breaking the rules of conduct of the organization, and as such the NCAA can remedy the situation in a number of ways. 

Penn State doesn't  have to like it, and probably needs to be cautious not to cause even more sever penalties... For any attempt to sidestep the NCAA's enforcement, could be taken as a further continuation or failure in it's agreed upon duties as a member institution.  This would not be the criminal or civil prosecution, but an in public B***h-Slap by all their associated Colleges and Universities, and merely conducted by the NCAA.

The NCAA bylaws govern the operation of the university's athletic programs and does not cover the actions of the school or its personnel beyond such.  Sandusky's crimes were not committed during the role of a PSU employee, but as an independent contractor, is my understanding.  He ran different youth oriented programs which had no official affiliation with PSU and during those activities he committed his crimes.  This would deny the reach of the NCAA.  My concern with this over reach by the NCAA is that it would grant itself new unlimited authority.

If the NCAA grants itself this new authority then you have to ask whether you are comfortable with scenarios like: Does the NCAA now have the right to sanction a program because a college-owned computer was used in a murder conspiracy ?  Does the NCAA now have the right to sanction a program because a college-owned vehicle operated by non-licensed operator hits a pedestrian ?  Does the NCAA now have the right to sanction a program because one coach is a tax cheat who stored his records in his office desk ?  Or some similar vagary.  The consequences are far reaching in effect.

au contraire... and nice try...

However Mr Sandusky was employed by Penn State at the time these events began.   It's been noted in the press,  also in the Freeh Report, and never questioned by the University.  Also at the point of being overly redundant if being a member institution of the NCAA, you have agreed to the following: 

2.4 THE PRINCIPLE OF SPORTSMANSHIP AND ETHICAL CONDUCT

     For intercollegiate athletics to promote the character development of participants, to enhance the integrity of 

     higher education and to promote civility in society, student-athletes, coaches, and all others associated with

     these athletics programs and events should adhere to such fundamental values as respect, fairness, civility,

     honesty and responsibility. These values should be manifest not only in athletics participation, but also in the broad

     spectrum of activities affecting the athletics program. It is the responsibility of each institution to:

     (Revised: 1/9/96)

       

     

     (a) Establish policies for sportsmanship and ethical conduct in intercollegiate athletics consistent with the 

      educational mission and goals of the institution; and (Adopted: 1/9/96)

     ( Educate, on a continuing basis, all constituencies about the policies in Constitution 2.4-(a).

         (Adopted: 1/9/96)

I'm sure there is a case to be made that an overly sever penalty might result; however you're questioning the NCAA overstepping it's bounds in enforcing a morals clause.  Regarding a case of continuing employment of/or association with a reported (repeat) Child Molester, and for failure of Penn State to educate it's workforce in how to properly deal with such after the case was duly brought forward, and for the Head Coach to continue to hide all facts in his quest to attain most win's ever....

...  the NCAA would likely be found negligent, had they not acted on behalf of the other schools.  For many other Institutions have self-reported their missteps, and in owning up have been publicly sanctioned.  Penn State sought to avoid such, it's the very core of this whole miserable-fiasco, and now it's time to bear the full weight of their misdeeds. 

Otherwise it's very likely the NCAA could be open to lawsuits by the plaintiffs (child victims), if they do not seek to curb such egregious behavior.  A mere slap on the wrist will not suffice, as these sanctions have to be viewed as substantial in nature.  I don't really see how the NCAA can look the other way, and still manage to maintain control of it's other Institutions.  The only threat the NCAA has to keep schools honest is in penalizing the guilty.  This is the function of an governing body.  And this is the very threat that you are arguing against.... the ultimate reason why Penn State never came forward. For they already knew it's Administration and Coach Paterno would be not only guilty in the Court of  Public Opinion, but most certainly guilty of violating it's morals contract.  It was in fact the fear of NCAA violations that scared Mr. Paterno most, for they alone have the right to strip him of his all-too-precious most wins. 

The team let them count their wins, they did nothing wrong and are victims themselves. The schools other programs have done no wrong. And the community does not deserve to be penalized.  But that was not the jest of this thread, and I'm only siding with Grambling in the belief that it has a case against Mr Paterno.   And I only hope a great many wins are taken away him from his precious tally. For many are greed stained wins, bought and paid for by these young men, and covered in a ever to be remembered sickening filth.  It's the sheer perversity which allows and beckons for the NCAA to do something, this is not some tattoo driven inquiry or tale of discounted clothing.  We have witnessed life's ruined because a football coach feared the NCAA, and all that remains is for the NCAA to complete what was feared.

[95tgr4life 0]

It amazes me how many people cannot see that the football program and the university benefited greatly for many years by covering this up.  If this was dealt with immediately do you really think it would not have negatively effected recruiting?  Is it possible that JoPa would have been dismissed?  The football program would have had a large black eye and it would have changed their ability to be competitive.  That my friends equals an unfair advantage albeit not your prototypical pay to play scheme. 

[collector527 0]

I can't help but feel torn between the two arguments here.  On one hand I understand that the NCAA may be over stepping it boundaries and punishing something that should be out of there reach and it may give them reason to try and grab even more power in the future. On the other hand I see the punishment as not being about what Sandusky did. He is being punished for that by the courts. I see the NCAA punishing Penn State for the complete lack of moral character all parties involved showed toward the situation.   They basically swept this whole thing under the rug and let it go unpunished for fear of the fall out it would cause(which would not have been as bad if they had come out and spoke against it in the beginning).  The punishment in my eyes is for the university, the coaches, and others involved that sat by and allowed this to happen and just acted like it never happend. Now that makes Penn State look bad, it goes against any moral agreement with the NCAA and makes the NCAA look bad as well.  What if the NCAA did nothing? They would be just as guilty as Penn State was for hiding it. Doing nothing makes the NCAA look bad and sends the message that these type of things can happen without fear of punshment for the program.  I bet if this happens again somewhere it does not get pushed aside and that will be partly because of fear from NCAA punishment for the university.

Now onto Paterno. I do not like Penn State much but respect Paterno as a coach.  And in no way should you take away wins from a guy for any off the field incedent.  He won the games and this had nothing to do with that.  He recruited and coached and won and that is seperate from this.  I think he has been punished for what he did and it killed him. Coaching was the only keeping him alive and it was taken away. I was ok with him being fired and thought he had to be atleast suspended for his involvement.  Buthe did not put ineligable players on the field. He did not cheat or pays players that we know of.  So why take his wins?  Those should be seperate from this. His record was not involved in the incident and it also punishes those players who played those games.  Just my opinion.

[collector527 0]

It amazes me how many people cannot see that the football program and the university benefited greatly for many years by covering this up.  If this was dealt with immediately do you really think it would not have negatively effected recruiting?  Is it possible that JoPa would have been dismissed?  The football program would have had a large black eye and it would have changed their ability to be competitive.  That my friends equals an unfair advantage albeit not your prototypical pay to play scheme. 

I understand what you are saying but "IF" Paterno and Penn State had come out imediately and turned him in then the fall out would never have been this bad.  Paterno would never have been fired. He was way more valuable as a coach back then and he would not be guilty of hiding anything and neither would Penn State. Yes it would have looked bad and people would wonder how this could happen but at the same time Penn State and JoePa would have  been praised for doing the right thing. Thier only wrong doing was hiding it and allowing it to keep going by not turning him in. If they had done that from the beginning then they would not be at fault. Yes it would look bad for a while but it would not be on them.  The university would still be clean knowing they did the right thing.

[FHeal 4]

↑ so true → and JoePa would have been praised for doing the right thing.

[Weagle99 14]

Personally, I think the NCAA is making a huge mistake and over stepping their bounds MASSIVELY. IMO, the NCAA has no place here. They have no precedent. They have no authority. They are not within their jurisdiction (so to speak) and they are not operating within the confines of their purpose and existance as an institution at all. We have criminal courts to handle these types of matters. The NCAA is in the wrong galaxy here (not just zip code), and I cannot understand what Emmerrit is doing. At all.

PSU should fight the NCAA every step of the way on this one.

And by the way, I am not coming from a point of caring one bit what happens to PSU. I am coming from a much broader perspective of the NCAA operating WAY WAY out of its bounds in an area that has nothing to do with their actual purpose. It is a horrible idea, what they are doing and if they want to get involved with stuff like this (crimes and felonies) what type of precedent does it set, and where does it begin and end?

This is exactly why I asked that question in the first place. If the NCAA is allowed to set this precedent, it will happen again and again. And pretty soon there will be no investigations, just punishments.

I agree with you both.

Emmert is a disaster.

I have to disagree with all three of you.  If this isn't a lack of institutional control, I do not know what is. 

[Newbomb 193]

In your opinion...

[Newbomb 193]

PSU poll

http://www.auburneagle.com/WEAForum/index.php?topic=47448.0

[ellitor 33,114]

In your opinion...

No doubt.

[AU64 10,122]

If this had gone on in the Econ Department...it would have been just as serious and no one except the victims would care. 

JMO but keep the NCAA away from this....or there is no limit to where they will poke their nose in the future.

[ellitor 33,114]

If this had gone on in the Econ Department...it would have been just as serious and no one except the victims would care. 

JMO but keep the NCAA away from this....or there is no limit to where they will poke their nose in the future.

College sports analysts are saying this is a one time thing for the NCAA because of the unique situation and the blatant cover up by the whole University.

[Autigers71 0]

Is it a slippery slope? YES

Is it a slope that should be stepped out on? IMO Yes

You should always deal with the problems at hand, this is the problem PSU wound up in. They would not deal with the problem because of what it might do to them 3 years down the road. Most people who don't want the NCAA to step in are more worried about what the NCAA might do 3 years down the road than they are about justice being done over this.

[CMPluvAU04 0]

I think this is a obvious example of lack of institutional control. Sad that so many innocent fans and players who love their team just as much as we love ours have to suffer the consequences as well

[telling tiger 156]

PSU is a member of and belongs to the organized play of the NCAA, PSU chose to cover up the actions of this lunatic to protect the sports programs of PSU. To maintain their competitive play. The NCAA should be involved in this, neck deep to a giraffe.

They should be glad it isn't me making this decision, it would be 10 years before they could even apply for reinstatement, much less get it.

They deserve everything they get.

People are going to be hurt finanically in the town and area. They need to place their anger in the appropriate area. P-S-U!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PSU admin and sports admin.

Had they done the right thing, it would have been a criminal case involving sandusky, ONLY. Not a public beheading of the university football program.

How many times have you heard, "It is often the cover up of a crime that does as much damage as the crime"?

Well this time it doesn't. Tell that to the victims. The cover up allowed for more victims to be created.

NAIL THEM!!!!!!!!!!!

[Elephant Tipper 430]

All schools agree to the bylaws, so therefore  the NCAA has a right to uphold any parts that a member institution fails to uphold.  There's a posted section of these bylaws (the whole is easily found online) back on page 2.  Penn State (The School) violated  these, and failed to educate it's staff afterward. These could very well be violations of  2.4, 2.4a. and 2.4b, .  If so thereby the NCAA would have rights to act under 2.8.  of it's bylaws.

I believe (IMHO) some are confusing legal remedy under the law... with enforcement of articles in what's normally called a 'morals clause'.   This organization (the NCAA) has that base covered, and is quite likely to enforce this clause as a breech in it's rules of conduct.  Not under the guise of adjudication of criminal law, which is (most) certainly reserved for our judicial system.  This is a matter of breaking the rules of conduct of the organization, and as such the NCAA can remedy the situation in a number of ways. 

Penn State doesn't  have to like it, and probably needs to be cautious not to cause even more sever penalties... For any attempt to sidestep the NCAA's enforcement, could be taken as a further continuation or failure in it's agreed upon duties as a member institution.  This would not be the criminal or civil prosecution, but an in public B***h-Slap by all their associated Colleges and Universities, and merely conducted by the NCAA.

The NCAA bylaws govern the operation of the university's athletic programs and does not cover the actions of the school or its personnel beyond such.  Sandusky's crimes were not committed during the role of a PSU employee, but as an independent contractor, is my understanding.  He ran different youth oriented programs which had no official affiliation with PSU and during those activities he committed his crimes.  This would deny the reach of the NCAA.  My concern with this over reach by the NCAA is that it would grant itself new unlimited authority.

If the NCAA grants itself this new authority then you have to ask whether you are comfortable with scenarios like: Does the NCAA now have the right to sanction a program because a college-owned computer was used in a murder conspiracy ?  Does the NCAA now have the right to sanction a program because a college-owned vehicle operated by non-licensed operator hits a pedestrian ?  Does the NCAA now have the right to sanction a program because one coach is a tax cheat who stored his records in his office desk ?  Or some similar vagary.  The consequences are far reaching in effect.

**au contraire... and nice try...

However Mr Sandusky was employed by Penn State at the time these events began.   It's been noted in the press,  also in the Freeh Report, and never questioned by the University.  Also at the point of being overly redundant if being a member institution of the NCAA, you have agreed to the following: 

2.4 THE PRINCIPLE OF SPORTSMANSHIP AND ETHICAL CONDUCT

     For intercollegiate athletics to promote the character development of participants, to enhance the integrity of 

     higher education and to promote civility in society, student-athletes, coaches, and all others associated with

     these athletics programs and events should adhere to such fundamental values as respect, fairness, civility,

     honesty and responsibility. These values should be manifest not only in athletics participation, but also in the broad

     spectrum of activities affecting the athletics program. It is the responsibility of each institution to:

     (Revised: 1/9/96)

       

     

     (a) Establish policies for sportsmanship and ethical conduct in intercollegiate athletics consistent with the 

      educational mission and goals of the institution; and (Adopted: 1/9/96)

     ( Educate, on a continuing basis, all constituencies about the policies in Constitution 2.4-(a).

         (Adopted: 1/9/96)

I'm sure there is a case to be made that an overly sever penalty might result; however you're questioning the NCAA overstepping it's bounds in enforcing a morals clause.  Regarding a case of continuing employment of/or association with a reported (repeat) Child Molester, and for failure of Penn State to educate it's workforce in how to properly deal with such after the case was duly brought forward, and for the Head Coach to continue to hide all facts in his quest to attain most win's ever....

...  the NCAA would likely be found negligent, had they not acted on behalf of the other schools.  For many other Institutions have self-reported their missteps, and in owning up have been publicly sanctioned.  Penn State sought to avoid such, it's the very core of this whole miserable-fiasco, and now it's time to bear the full weight of their misdeeds. 

Otherwise it's very likely the NCAA could be open to lawsuits by the plaintiffs (child victims), if they do not seek to curb such egregious behavior.  A mere slap on the wrist will not suffice, as these sanctions have to be viewed as substantial in nature.  I don't really see how the NCAA can look the other way, and still manage to maintain control of it's other Institutions.  The only threat the NCAA has to keep schools honest is in penalizing the guilty.  This is the function of an governing body.  And this is the very threat that you are arguing against.... the ultimate reason why Penn State never came forward. For they already knew it's Administration and Coach Paterno would be not only guilty in the Court of  Public Opinion, but most certainly guilty of violating it's morals contract.  It was in fact the fear of NCAA violations that scared Mr. Paterno most, for they alone have the right to strip him of his all-too-precious most wins. 

The team let them count their wins, they did nothing wrong and are victims themselves. The schools other programs have done no wrong. And the community does not deserve to be penalized.  But that was not the jest of this thread, and I'm only siding with Grambling in the belief that it has a case against Mr Paterno.   And I only hope a great many wins are taken away him from his precious tally. For many are greed stained wins, bought and paid for by these young men, and covered in a ever to be remembered sickening filth.  It's the sheer perversity which allows and beckons for the NCAA to do something, this is not some tattoo driven inquiry or tale of discounted clothing.  We have witnessed life's ruined because a football coach feared the NCAA, and all that remains is for the NCAA to complete what was feared.

**  No, you misunderstood my statement.  Sandusky, although employed by PSU, was not working in the capacity of a PSU employee when these events happened.  He was working as an independent contractor, ie., a part-time job.  The youth camps were programs created, financed, and operated by Sandusky, not PSU.  The only involvement PSU had was their renting the facilities to him.  What will nullify my argument is if these youth programs were operated by/for PSU.

Please don't misunderstand my purpose in this discussion.  I want Sandusky's head chopped off and held up to be shown what is done to those who prey on others, and I would be willing to do the job, but the courts handle criminal matters like these, not the NCAA.  The role of the NCAA is to govern fairness of play in relation to other schools.  As I asked in an earlier portion of my comments, and you have not addressed is, How does Sandusky's crime give PSU an advantage in the operation of the university's sports programs ?  His crimes do not.  

The NCAA has a narrow scope of authority but due to the heinousness of these crimes everyone is screaming for the the board to do more, even when such is not in their ability to do so.  See, once the NCAA board grants itself the capacity to issue these edicts against PSU, retroactively I might add, then schools may become liable for other crimes committed by school employees that have nothing to do with the operation of a sports program.  The morals clause of the employees' contract with the university sufficiently holds that person accountable.  What the NCAA is embarking upon is a mistake.

[telling tiger 156]

PSU athletic coaching staff members, school and sports admin were involved in the coverup.

The only excuse they have is to protect the image, reputation and competitive stance of PSU.

If there isn't a moral imperative from NCAA membership(willingly undertaken, I add) to protect the people, particularly children, who are ON YOUR PREMISES, with the knowledge of the crimes already in possession of the head coach and top admins, the NCAA needs to close today. They allowed this man ACCESS. RIDICULOUS.

They deserve everything they get, plus some.

[Newbomb 193]

PSU was more concerned with keeping their Sports Program in general and football program in particular clean in the eyes of the NCAA than they were in doing what was fundamentally ethically right. 

[Newbomb 193]

WOW DP might of been better... Crippling to the Football Program....

[Cam2Newton1 0]

WOW!!! All wins from 1998 on are vacated.

[Newbomb 193]

4 year Bowl Ban

reduction to 15 schollys for 4 years

All wins vacated since 1998...

60 million fine...

[Plaric 4]

4 year Bowl Ban

reduction to 15 schollys for 4 years

All wins vacated since 1998...

Don't forget the $60 million fine