PSU SANCTIONS AND PATERNO

[Elephant Tipper 430]

To a simple country boy, never was there a truer (and more easily noted) case of "Lack of  Institution Control" than this. 

The purpose of the NCAA is to regulate collegiate programs, not become an extension of the Justice Department by being the adjudicator of criminal law.  Let me be clear, what happened at PSU is heinous and those involved should be held responsible by the laws of Pennsylvania (ref. other PSU thread comment), but those sordid events apparently did not give unfair advantage to their program, and specifically in this example, against Grambling.  The repeated request for the NCAA to "do something" to PSU's program is ludicrous.  This is like asking the Fish & Wildlife Dept. to prosecute a murder charge against an individual for murdering an albino (a rare and endangered species), ie., it's not their department.  IF an advantage to the PSU program was obtained through Sandusky's molesting children and the subsequent cover up by other coaches, then provide that evidence to the NCAA, otherwise the efforts are baseless and futile.  AND, if such evidence is provided.....the school's football program will be razed forever.

[NCTiger 0]

Shug, Dye, Tubs & Chizik

Paterno did plenty of good things, but all you have to do for a reality check on how you would vote is think about one of these 4 men allowing a cover up like this if any of these kids belonged to you, your brother, your sister or a friend. Your perception of these guys would take on some serious blunt trauma and you would feel outrage and betrayal. They would go from Auburn man/hero to degenerate in a second. Hardened criminals in prison even look down on pedophiles which does speak volumes. The bottom line is Paterno was an enabler here and is guilty. I agree with the poster talking about students having the right to free speech, but until they have their own kids they simply can't understand the hurt these parents are feeling. I also think some of the feeling that everyone deserves a second chance in today’s society does not apply to all scenarios, especially when it is a crime against defenseless kids or the elderly.  Just a very sad situation for all parties involved.

[Elephant Tipper 430]

Drag that statue down to the recycling center and eventually make something useful out of it, because that statue is useless!

Poetic justice if the statue is hollow!

[FHeal 4]

There is no doubt criminal activity transpired, as the recent trial of Mr Sandusky has concluded.   This was not the discussion at hand.  We are merely discussing the City of Grambling, and it's request for the NCAA to remove possible wins as a result facts uncovered during this prosecution.  Which is something entirely within their mandate:

From (free download) 2009-2010 NCAA Division I Manual

2.4 THE PRINCIPLE OF SPORTSMANSHIP AND ETHICAL CONDUCT [*]

     For intercollegiate athletics to promote the character development of participants, to enhance the integrity of 

     higher education and to promote civility in society, student-athletes, coaches, and all others associated with     

     these athletics programs and events should adhere to such fundamental values as respect, fairness, civility,

    honesty and responsibility. These values should be manifest not only in athletics participation, but also in the

    broad spectrum of activities affecting the athletics program. It is the responsibility of each institution to:

    (Revised: 1/9/96)

        

     

     (a) Establish policies for sportsmanship and ethical conduct in intercollegiate athletics consistent with the 

      educational mission and goals of the institution; and (Adopted: 1/9/96)

     ( Educate, on a continuing basis, all constituencies about the policies in Constitution 2.4-(a).

        (Adopted: 1/9/96)

2.8 THE PRINCIPLE OF RULES COMPLIANCE  [*]

      2.8.1 responsibility of Institution. [*]

           Each institution shall comply with all applicable rules and regulations of the Association in the conduct of its

           intercollegiate athletics programs. It shall monitor its programs to assure compliance and to identify and

           report to the Association instances in which compliance has not been achieved. In any such instance, the

           institution shall cooperate fully with the Association and shall take appropriate corrective actions. Members

           of an institution’s staff, student-athletes, and other individuals and groups representing the institution’s

           athletics interests shall comply with the applicable Association rules, and the member institution shall be

          responsible for such compliance.

     2.8.2 responsibility of Association. [*]   

          The Association shall assist the institution in its efforts to achieve full compliance

          with all rules and regulations and shall afford the institution, its staff and student-athletes fair procedures in

          the consideration of an identified or alleged failure in compliance.

     2.8.3 Penalty for noncompliance. [*]

           An institution found to have violated the Association’s rules shall be subject to such disciplinary and

           corrective actions as may be determined by the Association

(edited: to reformat NCAA text -n- the most horriable of spelling)

[Elephant Tipper 430]

Which of those rules you cite should be cause for win vacation ?

[around4ever 4,139]

Which of those rules you cite should be cause for win vacation ?

Ethical Conduct? 

[FHeal 4]

↑↑↑ that's what I also see, that possibly ...

These values should be manifest not only in athletics participation, but also in the

     broad spectrum of activities affecting the athletics program. It is the responsibility of each institution to:

     (Revised: 1/9/96)

       

     

     (a) Establish policies for sportsmanship and ethical conduct in intercollegiate athletics consistent with the 

      educational mission and goals of the institution; and (Adopted: 1/9/96)

     ( Educate, on a continuing basis, all constituencies about the policies in Constitution 2.4-(a).

...but also including the ( section, as the staff should have been specifically warned and educated after the first time.  NO names needed to be mentioned, only that education should have been warranted (and maybe it was).

As for any possible reductions in wins, because of vague catch all reference:    An institution found to have violated the Association’s rules shall be subject to such disciplinary and  corrective actions as may be determined by the Association

[FHeal 4]

Must say personally (IMHO) would believe taking wins from the team would be way over the line in terms of justice.  Yet if there was a possible way to just tally loses against the coach, then that would not seem too harsh... not with gravity of his letting this fall-thru-the-cracks after repeated notice. 

Perhaps it should not be by tallying losses.  Maybe just removing wins or season's involving the transgressions.

[dpwspringer 0]

My take with the NCAA is that they have given PSU officials a chance to self impose penalties, are waiting to see what PSU comes up with, and will go with whatever that is unless it has no teeth and leaves Paterno on the record as the all time win leader.  IMO, the NCAA will not leave Paterno with that record.

[FHeal 4]

↑↑↑ that's what I also see, that possibly ...

These values should be manifest not only in athletics participation, but also in the

     broad spectrum of activities affecting the athletics program. It is the responsibility of each institution to:

     (Revised: 1/9/96)

       

     

     (a) Establish policies for sportsmanship and ethical conduct in intercollegiate athletics consistent with the 

      educational mission and goals of the institution; and (Adopted: 1/9/96)

     ( Educate, on a continuing basis, all constituencies about the policies in Constitution 2.4-(a).

...but also including the ( section, as the staff should have been specifically warned and educated after the first time.  NO names needed to be mentioned, only that education should have been warranted (and maybe it was).

As for any possible reductions in wins, because of vague catch all reference:    An institution found to have violated the Association’s rules shall be subject to such disciplinary and  corrective actions as may be determined by the Association

[Elephant Tipper 430]

There is no doubt criminal activity transpired, as the recent trial of Mr Sandusky has concluded.   This was not the discussion at hand.  We are merely discussing the City of Grambling, and it's request for the NCAA to remove possible wins as a result facts uncovered during this prosecution.  Which is something entirely within their mandate:

Actually it is the essence of this discussion for without such there would be no cause for the action you suggest.  A criminal offense was perpetrated and then protected.  Is there another issue that is being overlooked, otherwise it is a criminal matter that will and should be settled in the courts, not by the NCAA.  

The judicial system of Pennsylvania will appropriately handle the matter, not the NCAA, and will deliver far more punishment than the NCAA could contemplate.  PSU is about to be dealt a death blow financially (hundreds of millions of dollars), those who assisted in the cover up will go to jail (10-20 years), and Paterno's name will go down in infamy and hopefully be expunged from the minds and records of all.  The NCAA has no power in comparison.  

EDIT: And Sandusky should be executed.  I am of the firm conviction that the death penalty stops crime, one person at the time.

[FHeal 4]

all true

Yet the number of wins by Coach Paterno will stand.  I merely question whether a win at any cost mentality should not be considered by the NCAA.  If the truth had been brought to light, there is good reason to believe his retirement would have been at least forced upon him.  If he was not in fact terminated after repeated occurrences happening on his watch.

What is known as a  morals contract, is a pretty strong case for dismissal public positions (go ask Mike Price) and often results in hari-kari before hand by many. It is not too far fetched to ask the NCAA to institute such retro-actively.  And after all they do appear quite good at operation through hindsight.

[alexava 6,973]

To a simple country boy, never was there a truer (and more easily noted) case of "Lack of  Institution Control" than this. 

The purpose of the NCAA is to regulate collegiate programs, not become an extension of the Justice Department by being the adjudicator of criminal law.  Let me be clear, what happened at PSU is heinous and those involved should be held responsible by the laws of Pennsylvania (ref. other PSU thread comment), but those sordid events apparently did not give unfair advantage to their program, and specifically in this example, against Grambling.  The repeated request for the NCAA to "do something" to PSU's program is ludicrous.  This is like asking the Fish & Wildlife Dept. to prosecute a murder charge against an individual for murdering an albino (a rare and endangered species), ie., it's not their department.  IF an advantage to the PSU program was obtained through Sandusky's molesting children and the subsequent cover up by other coaches, then provide that evidence to the NCAA, otherwise the efforts are baseless and futile.  AND, if such evidence is provided.....the school's football program will be razed forever.

^^^^^ there are people being prosecuted by law for this. im not a penn st fan at all. i doubt anyone here is more sickened than i about the way this was mishandled.(i even think McCweary sp? totally screwed the thing up and it could be argued he was more concerned with his job security than the kids well being). i just dont see the ncaa piling on here and dont think they really want to. 

    the ncaa didnt penalize auburn for cams dads violation because they had no policy in place for that exact situation. i seriously doubt there is one that completely covers this either.

[around4ever 4,139]

NEWSFLASH:  Statue will be taken down.  Finally, somebody GETS it and has the stones to do something.

http://live.psu.edu/story/60474

[around4ever 4,139]

 

 

[Elephant Tipper 430]

:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

Shocked to see this but glad to see that action is being taken, finally. 

Thanks for posting a4e.

[AU64 10,122]

See the PSU admin sneaked in early today and took JoePa away....somehow doing it behind a curtain seemed appropriate. 

I note the planned student protest never really materialized.  Time for them to move on and anyone trying to protect the "good name" of JoePa is not doing the school any good.

[Elephant Tipper 430]

"Paterno statue removed, library name to remain"

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2012/07/22/paterno-statue-removed-library-name-to-remain/

Quote Paterno's sculptor in another article: "When things quiet down, down if they do quiet down, I hope they don't remove it permanently or destroy it," he said. "His legacy should not be completely obliterated and thrown out. ... He was a good man. It wasn't that he was an evil person. He made a mistake."

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2012/07/22/penn-state-president-orders-removal-joe-paterno-statue/

This quote demonstrates the exact reason for removing the statue.  Many affiliated with the PSU program "don't get it".

[AEAugirl 9,633]

Saw someone post that the NCAA has announced "unprecedented" penalties to be leveled against PSU?  Anyone read anything about that?  Wonder if they will get the death penalty like some have speculated?

Sick situation all the way around.  Sacrificing kids for a football program should be dealt with heavy handed IMO.

[The SandMntTiger 9]

Maybe Joe Pa didn't want to believe the truth about his friend Sandusky. Maybe he thought he could get him under control himself and save the university he loved much grief and pain. Point is I don't know why that old man handled the things the way he did. Was he wrong? Hell yeah he was. Now here comes his statue down and probably the rest of PSU's athletic programs as well....

The NCAA to announce "unpresedented penalties" against PSU 9 o'clock Monday morning. With one NCAA spokesperson claiming, "I have never seen nothing like it."  

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-400_162-57477382/ncaa-source-unprecedented-penalties-against-penn-state/

[around4ever 4,139]

As I stated earlier, the NCAA has no regulations to follow.  They can do anything they want.  If the penalties are severe as it seems they could be, this could be the end of the NCAA control as we know it.  I expect that PSU will throw everything they have, in the legal arena, to fight the sanctions whatever they may be.  If the courts get heavily involved, the control of the NCAA could be reeled in.   

[The SandMntTiger 9]

As I stated earlier, the NCAA has no regulations to follow.  They can do anything they want.  If the penalties are severe as it seems they could be, this could be the end of the NCAA control as we know it.  I expect that PSU will throw everything they have, in the legal arena, to fight the sanctions whatever they may be.  If the courts get heavily involved, the control of the NCAA could be reeled in.     

I haven't really studied much but seems to me like the NCAA would be wise to hit them with "lack of institutional control." Considering how PSU covered up this mess for so long I don't see how they could argue against it.

[aubcali 433]

As I stated earlier, the NCAA has no regulations to follow.  They can do anything they want.  If the penalties are severe as it seems they could be, this could be the end of the NCAA control as we know it.  I expect that PSU will throw everything they have, in the legal arena, to fight the sanctions whatever they may be.  If the courts get heavily involved, the control of the NCAA could be reeled in.     

Or...

Penn State might have already agreed upon the sanctions -- something along the lines that the NCAA tells the school to either accept these harsh penalties now or let it go through the investigative channels and risk the death penalty.

[The SandMntTiger 9]

As I stated earlier, the NCAA has no regulations to follow.  They can do anything they want.  If the penalties are severe as it seems they could be, this could be the end of the NCAA control as we know it.  I expect that PSU will throw everything they have, in the legal arena, to fight the sanctions whatever they may be.  If the courts get heavily involved, the control of the NCAA could be reeled in.     

Or...

Penn State might have already agreed upon the sanctions -- something along the lines that the NCAA tells the school to either accept these harsh penalties now or let it go through the investigative channels and risk the death penalty.

I could certainly see that. Kinda like a plea bargin. However, I don't see whats left really to investigate. The Freesh Report kinda took care of the leg work for them. Being Auburn fans we all know how the media likes to sensationalize the story, yet its kinda makes you wonder about the death penalty when an NCAA spokesman throws around terms such as "unpresedented penalties" and says stuff like they've "..never seen anything like it," when speaking of those penalties.

[around4ever 4,139]

Upon further review, I think the "unprecedented" may not mean severe penalties.  It may just mean that proper channels and steps, ie: Independent Investigation; Letter of Inquiry; going before Infractions Committee; the appeal process, were not gone through before the penalties are handed down.  They will be slapped with Lack of Institutional Control among others.  I see loss of TV; loss of scholarships, possibly as severe as 10 per year for 3 years; post season ban.  Remember this is the NCAA.  They can do whatever they want.