2 NYPD cops shot and killed

[AUUSN 823]

<p>*Disclaimer to the frothing mouthed radicals: The following line of thinking does not condone violence against the police.*

I've been saying over and over since the Summer that the police need to find innovative ways to police their neighborhoods. One way to do this is in the counterinsurgency model. A book I just finished reading: "For Love of Country, What our Veterans Can Teach Us About Citizenship, Heroism, and Sacrifice." by Howard Schultz and Rajiv Chandrasekaran, mentions this when spotlighting Retired LtCol Oclander who now teaches at risk students in the Chicago metro area.

The book states:

"In one lesson, Oclander described the military's counterinsurgency strategy to the students, explaining to them how the troops switched from solely attacking insurgents to protecting the civilian population as well, in an attempt to deny the Taliban vital local support. The two veterans handed out to the students excerpts from the military's counterinsurgency field manual.

One student said the description of insurgents in Afghanistan sounded no different from how gangs operated in his neighborhood. "How can we apply some of this stuff?" the student asked.

Oclander grinned. They assigned their pupils to develop a plan to adapt the military's counterinsurgency to their streets. What would happen, if the Chicago police spent more time winning the confidence of the students' neighborhoods?

To Oclander, discussions about counterinsurgency strategy were more than academic. Soon after moving to the city, he started going for walks with his pastor in one of the roughest West Side communities on Saturday nights. They were no there to proselytize but to listen to drug dealers, gangbangers, and people just trying to survive. They saw plenty of police, almost always sitting in their squad cars. Oclander told his pastor he had ordered his troops to conduct as many foot patrols as possible in Afghan villages: 'You don't dominate anything from inside your vehicle except the space inside your vehicle."

After so many years at war, he wanted to describe his experience in fighting insurgents with the police department. He shared his field assessment with other Iraq and Afghanistan veterans in Chicago, and eventually a group of them paid a visit to the police department's command center. The cops were polite, but they weren't about to turn over policing strategy to a bunch of former soldiers."</p>

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

You missed your calling. Cartoons is definitely your strong suit.

[JoeBags7277 734]

<p>*Disclaimer to the frothing mouthed radicals: The following line of thinking does not condone violence against the police.*

I've been saying over and over since the Summer that the police need to find innovative ways to police their neighborhoods. One way to do this is in the counterinsurgency model. A book I just finished reading: "For Love of Country, What our Veterans Can Teach Us About Citizenship, Heroism, and Sacrifice." by Howard Schultz and Rajiv Chandrasekaran, mentions this when spotlighting Retired LtCol Oclander who now teaches at risk students in the Chicago metro area.

The book states:

"In one lesson, Oclander described the military's counterinsurgency strategy to the students, explaining to them how the troops switched from solely attacking insurgents to protecting the civilian population as well, in an attempt to deny the Taliban vital local support. The two veterans handed out to the students excerpts from the military's counterinsurgency field manual.

One student said the description of insurgents in Afghanistan sounded no different from how gangs operated in his neighborhood. "How can we apply some of this stuff?" the student asked.

Oclander grinned. They assigned their pupils to develop a plan to adapt the military's counterinsurgency to their streets. What would happen, if the Chicago police spent more time winning the confidence of the students' neighborhoods?

To Oclander, discussions about counterinsurgency strategy were more than academic. Soon after moving to the city, he started going for walks with his pastor in one of the roughest West Side communities on Saturday nights. They were no there to proselytize but to listen to drug dealers, gangbangers, and people just trying to survive. They saw plenty of police, almost always sitting in their squad cars. Oclander told his pastor he had ordered his troops to conduct as many foot patrols as possible in Afghan villages: 'You don't dominate anything from inside your vehicle except the space inside your vehicle."

After so many years at war, he wanted to describe his experience in fighting insurgents with the police department. He shared his field assessment with other Iraq and Afghanistan veterans in Chicago, and eventually a group of them paid a visit to the police department's command center. The cops were polite, but they weren't about to turn over policing strategy to a bunch of former soldiers."</p>

Now thats the sort of thing law enforcement should be getting from the military, not weapons of war.

[AUUSN 823]

Now thats the sort of thing law enforcement should be getting from the military, not weapons of war.

Indeed and there are plenty of us who would be more than willing to talk with police about this theory. The thought hit me many years ago as I was jogging in my neighborhood and a police SUV drove by. All tinted windows and it occurred to me that he couldn't be more detached from the community if he tried.

[homersapien 11,440]

Obama, Holder, Sharpton, DeBlasio and every other jackwagon like them is just as guilty ad if they had pulled the trigger themselves. NY Cops were assaulted with a hatchet in October. Nobody stepped up to condemn that. Even when they attempt to show respect for police, they still can't resist throwing in language that impugns the police

Cole. Brown had assaulted Wilson once already and was charging at him like a raging bull. Wilson did what he had to do.

Lol ok. But I wasn't talking about Brown that's what all you were talking about and it's idiotic to suggest garners death had anything to do with race baiting, unless you're saying the pd was mad and murdered the man because of what some people said. And if Sharpton and whoever is as guilty Limbaugh and the rest are too because they are the same people just opposite ends of the spectrum, one is no better than the other

True. Neither side of the political divide has an exclusive on irrational or hateful rhetoric.

(But one side has a far better distribution system IMO).

[homersapien 11,440]

cole256....not disagreeing so much because I think we are in agreement on the big stage of things but

1. I don't think there was intent to kill Garner.

2 The evidence shows the cop killed Brown in self defense as Brown lunged for his gun.

Neither was outright executed in cold blood.

But then, no one has suggested that.

That is factually inaccurate. Many in the media intimated as much.

Link please.

(Actually I was referring to this forum. But I would like to know who in the media has proposed that.)

[homersapien 11,440]

This is a horrible tragedy. It's particularly disgusting that folks here are using the deaths of these two men to blame folks to their left. You respect no one, even in death. Human tragedies are used as props to strike out with hate. Many of you have been rendered soulless by blind hatred.

Wow, as someone with no dog in this fight, Tex, you just described how many on this board would describe you.

Is that how you'd describe me ? Sounds like you're aligning with PT, CT and Raptor on this issue. I wouldn't have guessed that.

Soulless partisan hack...Tex, you are a zombie in debate. You throw out talking points as fact. You attack the individual, not the position.....

That's pretty mild compared to what you called me in the GM thread. Do I need to prove it?

[homersapien 11,440]

There is a posse of perpetrator's with an identical MO. They are absorbed in their self promoted intellect and cannot admit defeat. I must admit, I typically categorize it as comedy relief and move on. It is comical when challenged with factual evidence they simply run and hide. Admittedly, I could press them but, I do not care to damage their respective self-worth on the forum.

That's funny.

Note the delicious irony between the red quotes.

As for the blue, how I wish! You're a master of evasion and dissemination when presented with a direct question you don't want to answer.

[homersapien 11,440]

Navy boy, I'm going to explain this one more time although I don't know why I bother. You love Obama despite the fact that he despises you as a member of the military.

There are some disturbed people in this world. People have been lynched as a result of someone fanning the hot flames of hatred. These low information people hear all this talk of cops targeting blacks constantly. The news media portrays it as such. High profile people like athletes propagate the lie of hands up don't shoot. They have had this bs drummed into their heads since birth.

An incident like Michael Brown occurs and emotions run high. Instead of cooling those emotions, people like Obama. Holder and Sharpton fsn the flames even higher. An idiot like this guy yesterday hears and sees all this and he just sits there seething until he finally goes over the edge.

Yes he is responsible for what he did. May God have mercy on his soul. At the same time the ones who indoctrinated him and egged him on bear responsibility too. They didn't pull the trigger but they set it all in motion.

Holy cow! That's a revealing rant. (And really, "sailor boy") :-\

[homersapien 11,440]

I don't know what he's smiling about but he certainly smiled and waved. You're part of a crew and for whatever reason a man you wanted to take in is dead what good explanation do you have for smiling and waving at a camera at a time when everybody is screaming oh my God I think he's dead?

Your argument certainly sounds as if you do. I'm sorry cole but, you are echoing an MSNBC talking point. Garner was not pronounced dead until later in the ambulance.

So the fact he was merely being loaded into an ambulance - instead of already being dead - makes all the difference in the cop's jovial behavior? :-\

And I think the point here is not to imply the cop meant to kill Garner, but was simply exhibiting a cavalier, careless attitude about it. A more appropriate reaction would have been concern about Garner and perhaps contemplating his possible responsibility for it.

The fact he can smile and joke is revealing about his attitude if not the entire force.

[homersapien 11,440]

But I don't sit here for hours awaiting your posts.

Past posts of yours suggest otherwise. Search the forum for "still waiting" by Proud Tiger in this forum.

LOL Touche'

[homersapien 11,440]

Now thats the sort of thing law enforcement should be getting from the military, not weapons of war.

Indeed and there are plenty of us who would be more than willing to talk with police about this theory. The thought hit me many years ago as I was jogging in my neighborhood and a police SUV drove by. All tinted windows and it occurred to me that he couldn't be more detached from the community if he tried.

Wow. I knew there was a movement in law enforcement called "community policing" (among other things?) which promotes this approach, but I never thought about the parallel to counter-insurgency tactics in the military. It seems so obvious in hindsight.

Thanks for posting!

[WarTim 3,457]

There is no limit to lib idiocy...........

[TexasTiger 13,006]

There is no limit to lib idiocy...........

Another thoughtful post by Timmie.

[AUDub 11,182]

There is no limit to lib idiocy...........

You remind me a lot of AUisAll. I'd suspect your situation would be very similar to his current predicament if you weren't a mod.

[AUtiger98 24]

About once every three months or so, there's a post that really bothers me. This is one of those post.

While I haven't read every post, few if any say anything related to thoughts and prayers going out to the families. I don't care what side you're on, we call can relate to what it means that these families will have a huge void this holiday season, and every Christmas from now on.

Thanks for reading. Now carry on with the bickering.

[cole256 17,084]

I said I'm sorry for their loss and I meant it

[AUFAN78 3,926]

cole256....not disagreeing so much because I think we are in agreement on the big stage of things but

1. I don't think there was intent to kill Garner.

2 The evidence shows the cop killed Brown in self defense as Brown lunged for his gun.

Neither was outright executed in cold blood.

But then, no one has suggested that.

That is factually inaccurate. Many in the media intimated as much.

Link please.

(Actually I was referring to this forum. But I would like to know who in the media has proposed that.)

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/cnns-donna-brazile-jumps-the-gun-michael-brown-was-murdered/

I tried to find interviews on MSNBC that have apparently been pulled or at least not archived. In those interviews the same conclusion was reached. I also saw some on MSM outlets as I was home sick that day and basically watched hours of broadcast. It caused me to cite on this very forum that all facts were not out in the case and people should withhold judgement until discovery.

With regard to the forum, I did think there were some who stated Brown was murdered. I could be wrong.

[AUFAN78 3,926]

There is a posse of perpetrator's with an identical MO. They are absorbed in their self promoted intellect and cannot admit defeat. I must admit, I typically categorize it as comedy relief and move on. It is comical when challenged with factual evidence they simply run and hide. Admittedly, I could press them but, I do not care to damage their respective self-worth on the forum.

That's funny.

Note the delicious irony between the red quotes.

As for the blue, how I wish! You're a master of evasion and dissemination when presented with a direct question you don't want to answer.

Like I've mentioned before homes, if the shoe fits! Reality can be a b****!

I really wish you'd show me where I failed to answer a legit question of yours. If I recall our last lengthy conversation, I answered you several pages before your greasy weasel appeared. How on earth can you blame me for your own neglect?

[AUFAN78 3,926]

I don't know what he's smiling about but he certainly smiled and waved. You're part of a crew and for whatever reason a man you wanted to take in is dead what good explanation do you have for smiling and waving at a camera at a time when everybody is screaming oh my God I think he's dead?

Your argument certainly sounds as if you do. I'm sorry cole but, you are echoing an MSNBC talking point. Garner was not pronounced dead until later in the ambulance.

So the fact he was merely being loaded into an ambulance - instead of already being dead - makes all the difference in the cop's jovial behavior? :-\

And I think the point here is not to imply the cop meant to kill Garner, but was simply exhibiting a cavalier, careless attitude about it. A more appropriate reaction would have been concern about Garner and perhaps contemplating his possible responsibility for it.

The fact he can smile and joke is revealing about his attitude if not the entire force.

I thought the point was he had no idea Garner was dead?

[homersapien 11,440]

cole256....not disagreeing so much because I think we are in agreement on the big stage of things but

1. I don't think there was intent to kill Garner.

2 The evidence shows the cop killed Brown in self defense as Brown lunged for his gun.

Neither was outright executed in cold blood.

But then, no one has suggested that.

That is factually inaccurate. Many in the media intimated as much.

Link please.

(Actually I was referring to this forum. But I would like to know who in the media has proposed that.)

http://www.mediaite....n-was-murdered/

I tried to find interviews on MSNBC that have apparently been pulled or at least not archived. In those interviews the same conclusion was reached. I also saw some on MSM outlets as I was home sick that day and basically watched hours of broadcast. It caused me to cite on this very forum that all facts were not out in the case and people should withhold judgement until discovery.

With regard to the forum, I did think there were some who stated Brown was murdered. I could be wrong.

Arguably he could have been found guilty of murder other than 1st degree. That's not what I think happened but it certainly wasn't off the table at the time.

But not to be picky, the phrase in question here is "outright(sic) executed in cold blood"

So, is that all you've got? Donna Brazille calling it murder? Anyone say he was "executed in cold blood".

[homersapien 11,440]

I don't know what he's smiling about but he certainly smiled and waved. You're part of a crew and for whatever reason a man you wanted to take in is dead what good explanation do you have for smiling and waving at a camera at a time when everybody is screaming oh my God I think he's dead?

Your argument certainly sounds as if you do. I'm sorry cole but, you are echoing an MSNBC talking point. Garner was not pronounced dead until later in the ambulance.

So the fact he was merely being loaded into an ambulance - instead of already being dead - makes all the difference in the cop's jovial behavior? :-\

And I think the point here is not to imply the cop meant to kill Garner, but was simply exhibiting a cavalier, careless attitude about it. A more appropriate reaction would have been concern about Garner and perhaps contemplating his possible responsibility for it.

The fact he can smile and joke is revealing about his attitude if not the entire force.

I thought the point was he had no idea Garner was dead?

You apparently missed the point. The point is the mind set of the officer at the time.

You are trying to fabricate a distinction between knowing he was dead and knowing he was been loaded into an ambulance because he was in severe respiratory stress. That's moot as far as the point is concerned.

[AUFAN78 3,926]

cole256....not disagreeing so much because I think we are in agreement on the big stage of things but

1. I don't think there was intent to kill Garner.

2 The evidence shows the cop killed Brown in self defense as Brown lunged for his gun.

Neither was outright executed in cold blood.

But then, no one has suggested that.

That is factually inaccurate. Many in the media intimated as much.

Link please.

(Actually I was referring to this forum. But I would like to know who in the media has proposed that.)

http://www.mediaite....n-was-murdered/

I tried to find interviews on MSNBC that have apparently been pulled or at least not archived. In those interviews the same conclusion was reached. I also saw some on MSM outlets as I was home sick that day and basically watched hours of broadcast. It caused me to cite on this very forum that all facts were not out in the case and people should withhold judgement until discovery.

With regard to the forum, I did think there were some who stated Brown was murdered. I could be wrong.

Arguably he could have been found guilty of murder other than 1st degree. That's not what I think happened but it certainly wasn't off the table at the time.

But not to be picky, the phrase in question here is "outright(sic) executed in cold blood"

So, is that all you've got? Donna Brazille calling it murder? Anyone say he was "executed in cold blood".

Not to put words in PT's mouth but, I think his distinction is murder/execution vs. killed in the line of duty. And yes, that's all I have with regards to a link at present. You can't fault networks for pulling this unfortunate commentary. Try to find the Donna Brazile commentary on CNN. Good luck!

[AUFAN78 3,926]

I don't know what he's smiling about but he certainly smiled and waved. You're part of a crew and for whatever reason a man you wanted to take in is dead what good explanation do you have for smiling and waving at a camera at a time when everybody is screaming oh my God I think he's dead?

Your argument certainly sounds as if you do. I'm sorry cole but, you are echoing an MSNBC talking point. Garner was not pronounced dead until later in the ambulance.

So the fact he was merely being loaded into an ambulance - instead of already being dead - makes all the difference in the cop's jovial behavior? :-\

And I think the point here is not to imply the cop meant to kill Garner, but was simply exhibiting a cavalier, careless attitude about it. A more appropriate reaction would have been concern about Garner and perhaps contemplating his possible responsibility for it.

The fact he can smile and joke is revealing about his attitude if not the entire force.

I thought the point was he had no idea Garner was dead?

You apparently missed the point. The point is the mind set of the officer at the time.

You are trying to fabricate a distinction between knowing he was dead and knowing he was been loaded into an ambulance because he was in severe respiratory stress. That's moot as far as the point is concerned.

Did I? If I am a cop that killed a man I surely feel remorse. But if that man is taken for medical attention and I have no idea he is in grave danger I might feel differently. That is my point. BTW, I did not ask cole but I will ask you. Do you have a link to the officer laughing, smiling, waving to the cameras, etc.?

[aujeff11 6,243]

cole256....agreed but if you are at war time doesn't always allow for people to stop and think about what the BEST thing to do is. But peace brother my wife is calling me to lunch and I think I know what the best decision is :big:/>

So the cops are at "war" with us? Maybe that's part of the problem.

no, he was saying in combat well thought out decisions cannot be made. Whether a cop is being attacked by a knife, or in a firefight, split second decisions have to be made. I will go on record as saying every cop has the right to defend themselves proportionally to the threat.