The Cross and the Confederate Flag

[homersapien 11,392]

jeff....AUUSN scoffs at anything contrary to what he likes. Maybe he doesn't have a heritage of any kind.

Or maybe he doesn't have a need to scratch a deep-seated inferiority complex by celebrating his Southern "heritage" like many do.

[aujeff11 6,243]

jeff....AUUSN scoffs at anything contrary to what he likes. Maybe he doesn't have a heritage of any kind.

Or maybe he doesn't have a need to scratch a deep-seated inferiority complex by celebrating his Southern "heritage" like many do.

That is hardly the truth. Far from it.

[aujeff11 6,243]

And people wonder why Sunni and Shia can't just get along. Southern Heritage, give me a freaking break.

No kidding, there are people scoffing at others for believing in "southern heritage,"

I believe that what they are scoffing at is, the idea that the rebel flag is an appropriate symbol southern heritage.

has been for years. I have t shirts from southern pride and I'm not a racist bigot. Far from it.

Your view is fine,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,for you. However, there are others who should be considered. How do you think that flag makes a black American feel? I can only guess but, I believe that if I were black, I would view the rebel flag about like I would someone sticking their middle finger up, and waving it in my face.

I don't wear shirts that looks like it came out of the confederate catalog lol. I do wear shirts from southern proper. If I was wearing a confederate flag shirt, I would expect the African American to refrain from infringing on my right to wear it. The tee shirt is not "fighting words" so I could wear it if I wanted. I'm not taking their shirts off their backs. I expect the same in return.

Actually, I suspect blacks want for you to have the right to wear it. I certainly do.

Makes it easier for us to identify you.

identify me as what? An American maybe?

[homersapien 11,392]

Just remember, if you have to resort to juvenile reading comprehension cut downs, you were probably just schooled. Class dismissed, you are too mod...

It is what it is. Just read more carefully and don't extrapolate or imagine what he means.

[icanthearyou 4,463]

Just remember, if you have to resort to juvenile reading comprehension cut downs, you were probably just schooled. Class dismissed, you are too mod...

I'm simply breaking it down as simply as I can for you. If you can't grasp from the original post, as well as the subsequent more detailed explanations of the point I was making, then I can only conclude that your don't comprehend the things you read very well. I suppose the alternative is that you frequently read your own thoughts into it and refuse to let go of those erroneous interpretations even when corrected. But either way, the issue is you.

Your points you have been making are absurd. Sorry I don't think like you do. I don't care if we are kinder, if we claim to be kinder, or if we in fact don't make the best sweet tea on this green earth. I will continue to wear southern heritage shirts from Martins, southern proper, anything with a flag already on it. It is my right to wear it, so I will. If it offends the Black Americans, I can't help it.

Certainly that is your right. You also have the right to be offensive or, offended. But please, while you are being both offended and offensive, remember, that is a two-way street your are standing in the middle of.

[homersapien 11,392]

jeff....AUUSN scoffs at anything contrary to what he likes. Maybe he doesn't have a heritage of any kind.

Or maybe he doesn't have a need to scratch a deep-seated inferiority complex by celebrating his Southern "heritage" like many do.

That is hardly the truth. Far from it.

Well, it seems to me that one's reverence for "Southern heritage" - at least as expressed by the flag - is inversely proportional to one's socio/economic/educational status. In short, the bigger the loser, the stronger the tie to "heritage".

For example, you will generally see a lot more expressions of "Southern heritage" on rusted-out pickups that you will on a Mercedes or Lexus.

Just a casual observation.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

I realize not everyone in this thread identifies as Christian, but for those who do I can't get my head around caring more about a particular expression of heritage or pride than the feelings that expression naturally and logically evokes in others. And not just a small fringe of others but a rather large swatch of my friends, neighbors, brothers and sisters in Christ.

[autigeremt 6,646]

jeff....AUUSN scoffs at anything contrary to what he likes. Maybe he doesn't have a heritage of any kind.

Or maybe he doesn't have a need to scratch a deep-seated inferiority complex by celebrating his Southern "heritage" like many do.

That is hardly the truth. Far from it.

Well, it seems to me that one's reverence for "Southern heritage" - at least as expressed by the flag - is inversely proportional to one's socio/economic/educational status. In short, the bigger the loser, the stronger the tie to "heritage".

For example, you will generally see a lot more expressions of "Southern heritage" on a rusted out pickup that you will on a Mercedes or Lexus.

Just a casual observation.

So it's socioeconomic and not racially driven? I know A LOT of upper middle class people who would argue with you but I believe a lot of it stems from the poor. I'd also state that a lot of them do not use the flag or see the flag as a racial symbol but something that gives them a sense of "pride"...misguided or not.

[autigeremt 6,646]

And people wonder why Sunni and Shia can't just get along. Southern Heritage, give me a freaking break.

No kidding, there are people scoffing at others for believing in "southern heritage,"

I believe that what they are scoffing at is, the idea that the rebel flag is an appropriate symbol southern heritage.

has been for years. I have t shirts from southern pride and I'm not a racist bigot. Far from it.

Your view is fine,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,for you. However, there are others who should be considered. How do you think that flag makes a black American feel? I can only guess but, I believe that if I were black, I would view the rebel flag about like I would someone sticking their middle finger up, and waving it in my face.

I don't wear shirts that looks like it came out of the confederate catalog lol. I do wear shirts from southern proper. If I was wearing a confederate flag shirt, I would expect the African American to refrain from infringing on my right to wear it. The tee shirt is not "fighting words" so I could wear it if I wanted. I'm not taking their shirts off their backs. I expect the same in return.

Actually, I suspect blacks want for you to have the right to wear it. I certainly do.

Makes it easier for us to identify you.

identify me as what? An American maybe?

In this case a "target". jk

[AUFAN78 3,911]

Pardon my ignorance Jeff, but you mentioned you did not wear a Confederate Flag shirt, but rather a Southern Heritage shirt. What exactly are we talking about here? Can you provide an example?

[homersapien 11,392]

And people wonder why Sunni and Shia can't just get along. Southern Heritage, give me a freaking break.

No kidding, there are people scoffing at others for believing in "southern heritage,"

I believe that what they are scoffing at is, the idea that the rebel flag is an appropriate symbol southern heritage.

has been for years. I have t shirts from southern pride and I'm not a racist bigot. Far from it.

Your view is fine,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,for you. However, there are others who should be considered. How do you think that flag makes a black American feel? I can only guess but, I believe that if I were black, I would view the rebel flag about like I would someone sticking their middle finger up, and waving it in my face.

I don't wear shirts that looks like it came out of the confederate catalog lol. I do wear shirts from southern proper. If I was wearing a confederate flag shirt, I would expect the African American to refrain from infringing on my right to wear it. The tee shirt is not "fighting words" so I could wear it if I wanted. I'm not taking their shirts off their backs. I expect the same in return.

Actually, I suspect blacks want for you to have the right to wear it. I certainly do.

Makes it easier for us to identify you.

identify me as what? An American maybe?

Best Case: Oblivious and clueless

Most Likely Case: Ignorant of history; insecure with a need for self-identity, self-centered and indifferent to the perspectives of others especially black people.

Worst Case: Racist bigot

[AUDub 11,155]

So it's socioeconomic and not racially driven? I know A LOT of upper middle class people who would argue with you but I believe a lot of it stems from the poor. I'd also state that a lot of them do not use the flag or see the flag as a racial symbol but something that gives them a sense of "pride"...misguided or not.

It can be both.

[homersapien 11,392]

I realize not everyone in this thread identifies as Christian, but for those who do I can't get my head around caring more about a particular expression of heritage or pride than the feelings that expression naturally and logically evokes in others. And not just a small fringe of others but a rather large swatch of my friends, neighbors, brothers and sisters in Christ.

There is a huge difference in the number of people who self-identify as Christians and actual Christians. That's true in real life as well as this forum.

I say this as a neutral observer who nevertheless understands what Christianity should be about, at least regarding behavior.

[autigeremt 6,646]

And people wonder why Sunni and Shia can't just get along. Southern Heritage, give me a freaking break.

No kidding, there are people scoffing at others for believing in "southern heritage,"

I believe that what they are scoffing at is, the idea that the rebel flag is an appropriate symbol southern heritage.

has been for years. I have t shirts from southern pride and I'm not a racist bigot. Far from it.

Your view is fine,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,for you. However, there are others who should be considered. How do you think that flag makes a black American feel? I can only guess but, I believe that if I were black, I would view the rebel flag about like I would someone sticking their middle finger up, and waving it in my face.

I don't wear shirts that looks like it came out of the confederate catalog lol. I do wear shirts from southern proper. If I was wearing a confederate flag shirt, I would expect the African American to refrain from infringing on my right to wear it. The tee shirt is not "fighting words" so I could wear it if I wanted. I'm not taking their shirts off their backs. I expect the same in return.

Make no mistake, I am not questioning your right to wear the flag on a tee shirt. I am questioning your reasoning, judgement, and character.

Not sure that is fair. At the end of the day we should "try" to understand another persons position and work to develop an understanding of "why' a person might have a deep affection for one thing or the other and actively open dialogue with them before going straight to judgement. It's a tough task I know, but it's fair.

I used to have the flag hanging in my bedroom growing up. My adopted uncle gave it to me and I thought it was cool because it came from him. Throughout my young life my adopted parents and my church taught me to love everyone and not to discriminate. Still, I never saw the flag as nothing more than a symbol of southern "heritage". When I left the house to join the military I encountered a lot of people from a lot of backgrounds and it was there that I realized that some people had a true offense to it and I adjusted accordingly. There are a lot of people in the south with a similar story and to them it means something very different than what the KKK and other groups used it for and we need to understand that and try to educate them as to why it has a much deeper meaning than the one they were raised with.

And if you are not from the south or an area where it was displayed or revered you don't understand this and enjoy jumping on the bandwagon.

[autigeremt 6,646]

So it's socioeconomic and not racially driven? I know A LOT of upper middle class people who would argue with you but I believe a lot of it stems from the poor. I'd also state that a lot of them do not use the flag or see the flag as a racial symbol but something that gives them a sense of "pride"...misguided or not.

It can be both.

Oh I agree...just posing the question.

[homersapien 11,392]

jeff....AUUSN scoffs at anything contrary to what he likes. Maybe he doesn't have a heritage of any kind.

Or maybe he doesn't have a need to scratch a deep-seated inferiority complex by celebrating his Southern "heritage" like many do.

That is hardly the truth. Far from it.

Well, it seems to me that one's reverence for "Southern heritage" - at least as expressed by the flag - is inversely proportional to one's socio/economic/educational status. In short, the bigger the loser, the stronger the tie to "heritage".

For example, you will generally see a lot more expressions of "Southern heritage" on a rusted out pickup that you will on a Mercedes or Lexus.

Just a casual observation.

So it's socioeconomic and not racially driven? I know A LOT of upper middle class people who would argue with you but I believe a lot of it stems from the poor. I'd also state that a lot of them do not use the flag or see the flag as a racial symbol but something that gives them a sense of "pride"...misguided or not.

It is sometimes - maybe often - both. But I think it has more to do with people who feel suppressed or oppressed economically and socially. Many of these people are also racists. But virtually all racists feel suppressed or oppressed.

So what exactly is it about a flag of the confederacy that would bestow pride? I submit it's defiance.

Who needs to express defiance? People who feel oppressed.

[autigeremt 6,646]

jeff....AUUSN scoffs at anything contrary to what he likes. Maybe he doesn't have a heritage of any kind.

Or maybe he doesn't have a need to scratch a deep-seated inferiority complex by celebrating his Southern "heritage" like many do.

That is hardly the truth. Far from it.

Well, it seems to me that one's reverence for "Southern heritage" - at least as expressed by the flag - is inversely proportional to one's socio/economic/educational status. In short, the bigger the loser, the stronger the tie to "heritage".

For example, you will generally see a lot more expressions of "Southern heritage" on a rusted out pickup that you will on a Mercedes or Lexus.

Just a casual observation.

So it's socioeconomic and not racially driven? I know A LOT of upper middle class people who would argue with you but I believe a lot of it stems from the poor. I'd also state that a lot of them do not use the flag or see the flag as a racial symbol but something that gives them a sense of "pride"...misguided or not.

It is sometimes - maybe often - both. But I think it has more to do with people who feel suppressed or oppressed economically and socially. Many of these people are also racists. But virtually all racists feel suppressed or oppressed.

So what exactly is it about a flag of the confederacy that would bestow pride? I submit it's defiance.

Who needs to express defiance? People who feel oppressed.

It happens in all people who feel oppressed. You see, a lot of people are raised in believing it stands for states rights and liberty. A LOT more than on the racial side but the rhetoric will tell you otherwise. It won't be an easy road in SC for those who vote to bring it down. At least in my opinion.

[Weegle777 78]

Devil's Advocate question:

Since the CF is considered racist and oppressive, and believed by many that it should be taken down, if you have a neighbor from Japan that had relatives die in Nagasaki or Hiroshima, and the American flag is a symbol that brings them the same amount of bad feelings that the CF does to my darker skinned brothers and sisters, should you take it down as well out of respect for our Japanese brethren?

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

homer....if you ain't got that pride you would never understand.

[autigeremt 6,646]

Devil's Advocate question:

Since the CF is considered racist and oppressive, and believed by many that it should be taken down, if you have a neighbor from Japan that had relatives die in Nagasaki or Hiroshima, and the American flag is a symbol that brings them the same amount of bad feelings that the CF does to my darker skinned brothers and sisters, should you take it down as well out of respect for our Japanese brethren?

It's a fair question but no. The Japanese flag is one of a foreign nation....

[autigeremt 6,646]

And then you have accounts like this to give fodder....

http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/wew/articles/00/black_confederates.html

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

Weegs....I had a Japanese neighbor for a long time (married to a Tenn. grad). We are still great friends. You raise an excellent question. There are many difficult issues like this but when you discuss them face to face you don't have all the animosity you have in a forum like this. I walked the streets of Tokyo one night and wondered what the people I as passing though about me. I also admit that when I walked across the Arizona and saw a lot of Japanese people there I felt resentment. I guess those feelings are just human nature.

Maybe a better question is what if your neighbor is a Mexican and flies the Mexican flag all the time. That's happening all the time now in places like L.A.

[icanthearyou 4,463]

And people wonder why Sunni and Shia can't just get along. Southern Heritage, give me a freaking break.

No kidding, there are people scoffing at others for believing in "southern heritage,"

I believe that what they are scoffing at is, the idea that the rebel flag is an appropriate symbol southern heritage.

has been for years. I have t shirts from southern pride and I'm not a racist bigot. Far from it.

Your view is fine,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,for you. However, there are others who should be considered. How do you think that flag makes a black American feel? I can only guess but, I believe that if I were black, I would view the rebel flag about like I would someone sticking their middle finger up, and waving it in my face.

I don't wear shirts that looks like it came out of the confederate catalog lol. I do wear shirts from southern proper. If I was wearing a confederate flag shirt, I would expect the African American to refrain from infringing on my right to wear it. The tee shirt is not "fighting words" so I could wear it if I wanted. I'm not taking their shirts off their backs. I expect the same in return.

Make no mistake, I am not questioning your right to wear the flag on a tee shirt. I am questioning your reasoning, judgement, and character.

Not sure that is fair. At the end of the day we should "try" to understand another persons position and work to develop an understanding of "why' a person might have a deep affection for one thing or the other and actively open dialogue with them before going straight to judgement. It's a tough task I know, but it's fair.

I used to have the flag hanging in my bedroom growing up. My adopted uncle gave it to me and I thought it was cool because it came from him. Throughout my young life my adopted parents and my church taught me to love everyone and not to discriminate. Still, I never saw the flag as nothing more than a symbol of southern "heritage". When I left the house to join the military I encountered a lot of people from a lot of backgrounds and it was there that I realized that some people had a true offense to it and I adjusted accordingly. There are a lot of people in the south with a similar story and to them it means something very different than what the KKK and other groups used it for and we need to understand that and try to educate them as to why it has a much deeper meaning than the one they were raised with.

And if you are not from the south or an area where it was displayed or revered you don't understand this and enjoy jumping on the bandwagon.

I understand what it means to some white southerners. However, weighed against what it stands for to racists and, what it stands for to black Americans, doesn't it seem reasonable that parading it around would call someone's judgement and character into question?

There are aspects of my own southern heritage that I am proud of. However, I think it is dishonorable, hypocritical, and morally reprehensible to unconditionally embrace all of that heritage and, ignore what that heritage means to others. I think there are much better ways to express who we are as southerners and, individuals.

As I have said before, anyone who truly revered this flag should have done more to protect whatever meaning they associate with it from those who use it as a symbol of evil.

[homersapien 11,392]

And people wonder why Sunni and Shia can't just get along. Southern Heritage, give me a freaking break.

No kidding, there are people scoffing at others for believing in "southern heritage,"

I believe that what they are scoffing at is, the idea that the rebel flag is an appropriate symbol southern heritage.

has been for years. I have t shirts from southern pride and I'm not a racist bigot. Far from it.

Your view is fine,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,for you. However, there are others who should be considered. How do you think that flag makes a black American feel? I can only guess but, I believe that if I were black, I would view the rebel flag about like I would someone sticking their middle finger up, and waving it in my face.

I don't wear shirts that looks like it came out of the confederate catalog lol. I do wear shirts from southern proper. If I was wearing a confederate flag shirt, I would expect the African American to refrain from infringing on my right to wear it. The tee shirt is not "fighting words" so I could wear it if I wanted. I'm not taking their shirts off their backs. I expect the same in return.

Make no mistake, I am not questioning your right to wear the flag on a tee shirt. I am questioning your reasoning, judgement, and character.

Not sure that is fair. At the end of the day we should "try" to understand another persons position and work to develop an understanding of "why' a person might have a deep affection for one thing or the other and actively open dialogue with them before going straight to judgement. It's a tough task I know, but it's fair.

I used to have the flag hanging in my bedroom growing up. My adopted uncle gave it to me and I thought it was cool because it came from him. Throughout my young life my adopted parents and my church taught me to love everyone and not to discriminate. Still, I never saw the flag as nothing more than a symbol of southern "heritage". When I left the house to join the military I encountered a lot of people from a lot of backgrounds and it was there that I realized that some people had a true offense to it and I adjusted accordingly. There are a lot of people in the south with a similar story and to them it means something very different than what the KKK and other groups used it for and we need to understand that and try to educate them as to why it has a much deeper meaning than the one they were raised with.

And if you are not from the south or an area where it was displayed or revered you don't understand this and enjoy jumping on the bandwagon.

EMT, I think that reflects the earlier experiences of most boys growing up in the South. It reflects my experience also.

I think it was Charles Dew who discussed this in the beginning of one of his books. He describes the revisionism he was taught growing up in the South and having the battle flag hanging up on the wall of his dorm room at college. When he began to seriously study the history which revealed the role slavery played in the conflict, it was a disturbing epiphany.

Personally, I began experiencing the cognitive dissonance regarding this idealized heritage concerning the flag during the civil rights demonstrations in Birmingham in the early 60's. I remember thinking at the time that racists were hi-jacking my "heritage". It was a little later that I came to realize the flag wasn't hijacked, it is what it has always been - a symbol of a rebellion based on white supremacy.

[homersapien 11,392]

jeff....AUUSN scoffs at anything contrary to what he likes. Maybe he doesn't have a heritage of any kind.

Or maybe he doesn't have a need to scratch a deep-seated inferiority complex by celebrating his Southern "heritage" like many do.

That is hardly the truth. Far from it.

Well, it seems to me that one's reverence for "Southern heritage" - at least as expressed by the flag - is inversely proportional to one's socio/economic/educational status. In short, the bigger the loser, the stronger the tie to "heritage".

For example, you will generally see a lot more expressions of "Southern heritage" on a rusted out pickup that you will on a Mercedes or Lexus.

Just a casual observation.

So it's socioeconomic and not racially driven? I know A LOT of upper middle class people who would argue with you but I believe a lot of it stems from the poor. I'd also state that a lot of them do not use the flag or see the flag as a racial symbol but something that gives them a sense of "pride"...misguided or not.

It is sometimes - maybe often - both. But I think it has more to do with people who feel suppressed or oppressed economically and socially. Many of these people are also racists. But virtually all racists feel suppressed or oppressed.

So what exactly is it about a flag of the confederacy that would bestow pride? I submit it's defiance.

Who needs to express defiance? People who feel oppressed.

It happens in all people who feel oppressed. You see, a lot of people are raised in believing it stands for states rights and liberty. A LOT more than on the racial side but the rhetoric will tell you otherwise. It won't be an easy road in SC for those who vote to bring it down. At least in my opinion.

Like I said earlier, the "states rights" claim relates specifically to the right to discriminate against blacks. In this case, it's a euphemism for racial discrimination whether the people using the phrase acknowledge it or not.

And I agree the removal of the flag from the capitol grounds will not be easy. It will take a 2/3 majority, which was deliberate. It's certainly not a done deal.