The Cross and the Confederate Flag

[WarEagle1983 2,185]

I proudly tell anyone I'm a Southerner. I love my heritage as well. And I understand that there are some underlying complexities that don't fit the basic Civil War narrative. But in the end, the CSA was wrong. Even if you allow that they had some good points on federal overreach, they chose one of the worst possible things in slavery to hitch that states' rights wagon to.

The South lost, and rightly so. That flag has no warm fuzzies of heritage and history to black people. It is almost exactly like a Nazi flag to a Jew. It's just time for it to go.

It's exactly how we view it.

[PUB78 1,358]

My 3rd great grandfather and all 6 of his sons served in the CSA. None of them owned slaves. The Civil War was a rich man's war and a poor man's fight as only 5% of Southerns owned slaves. The Confederate flag does not need to atop government buildings, but could be at a park or museum that pertains to Confederate history.

[AURaptor 1,125]

Yes. Time for it to go.

150 years after the war.

Move it off the capitol buildings. Off the state flags.

Off the capitol building grounds.

Wipe it from all public places, even war memorial sites.

Pretty soon, it may very well be a crime to fly or display this flag.

Stone Mountain ? Those carvings are next.

Yep... bit by bit, time to erase all history we don't care for.

[TitanTiger 20,484]

Every call I've seen for it's removal from the statehouse grounds calls for it to be in a museum or other clearly historical context.

[homersapien 11,381]

Yes. Time for it to go.

150 years after the war.

Move it off the capital buildings. Off the state flags.

Off the capital grounds.

Wipe it from all public places, even war memorial sites.

Pretty soon, it may very well be a crime to fly or display this flag.

Stone Mountain ? Those carvings are next.

Yep... bit by bit, time to erase all history we don't care for.

Well, there's your problem. You have confused erasing history with denying it.

Celebrating a confederate flag erected on public property during the Civil Rights movement is a simple denial of what it (rightfully) represents to a large proportion of our citizens.

Of course there are also the few who actually understand and embrace what it stands for and would deliberately taunt that offended segment of population with it.

Anyone who supports the continued display of it on public property is in one of those groups or the other.

[AURaptor 1,125]

There was no huge public outcry for its removal the day , the week or the year before some 21 yr old punk loser on drugs decided he didn't like black folks.

Yet with in a week, a knee jerk reaction occurs, and that's going to cure exactly what ?

[homersapien 11,381]

There was no huge public outcry for its removal the day , the week or the year before some 21 yr old punk loser on drugs decided he didn't like black folks.

Yet with in a week, a knee jerk reaction occurs, and that's going to cure exactly what ?

A lot of people require a "slap in the face" before they can see reality.

And if you care to do the research, you will find that the controversy of displaying the flag on public property in SC is hardly a new one. This shooting has just renewed it. Hopefully it will shame enough of the flag supporters to remove it completely this time around.

[TexasTiger 12,915]

jeff....some will argue about it being flown in a gov't place and I understand that. But your analogy is dead on. If it's OK for people to stomp and burn the American flag then it's sure as hell OK for me to fly the Confederate flag if I want to. I proudly do so every year on Robert E. Lee's b'day. To each his own.

He would consider you doing do an embarrassment.

[AUDub 11,151]

Here's to hoping the GOP in South Carolina agrees.

We are not going to allow this symbol to divide us any longer. The fact that people are choosing to use it as a sign of hate is something we cannot stand.

[alexava 6,973]

Here's to hoping the GOP in South Carolina agrees.

We are not going to allow this symbol to divide us any longer. The fact that people are choosing to use it as a sign of hate is something we cannot stand.

a small step in the right direction but a necessary one.

[AURaptor 1,125]

There was no huge public outcry for its removal the day , the week or the year before some 21 yr old punk loser on drugs decided he didn't like black folks.

Yet with in a week, a knee jerk reaction occurs, and that's going to cure exactly what ?

A lot of people require a "slap in the face" before they can see reality.

( You never want to let a good crisis go to waste )

And if you care to do the research, you will find that the controversy of displaying the flag on public property in SC is hardly a new one. This shooting has just renewed it. Hopefully it will shame enough of the flag supporters to remove it completely this time around.

What do they have to be ashamed of ? Did any of them come out and support the church shooter ?

If so, I missed it.

And remove it completely from what ? It's already being moved from the state capitol grounds. Where else would you have it removed from ?

[AUDub 11,151]

What do they have to be ashamed of ? Did any of them come out and support the church shooter ?

If so, I missed it.

And remove it completely from what ? It's already being moved from the state capitol grounds. Where else would you have it removed from ?

Homer was referring to the last time this was a hot topic. It used to be on the pole on the dome, right below the U.S. and state flag. They compromised by moving its current location. The memorial on the statehouse grounds.

[TitanTiger 20,484]

Good for them:

JUST IN: @CNN reports Walmart will no longer sell #ConfederateFlag merchandise; More on the controversy tonight at 10.

[homersapien 11,381]

There was no huge public outcry for its removal the day , the week or the year before some 21 yr old punk loser on drugs decided he didn't like black folks.

Yet with in a week, a knee jerk reaction occurs, and that's going to cure exactly what ?

A lot of people require a "slap in the face" before they can see reality.

( You never want to let a good crisis go to waste )

And if you care to do the research, you will find that the controversy of displaying the flag on public property in SC is hardly a new one. This shooting has just renewed it. Hopefully it will shame enough of the flag supporters to remove it completely this time around.

What do they have to be ashamed of ? Did any of them come out and support the church shooter ?

If so, I missed it.

And remove it completely from what ? It's already being moved from the state capitol grounds. Where else would you have it removed from ?

You are confused. It's still there and will be until the SC legislative body acts on it.

At least get your facts straight before spouting off.

And since when did such a tragedy become a "good crisis"? What an utterly stupid thing for you to say.

[homersapien 11,381]

There was no huge public outcry for its removal the day , the week or the year before some 21 yr old punk loser on drugs decided he didn't like black folks.

Yet with in a week, a knee jerk reaction occurs, and that's going to cure exactly what ?

A lot of people require a "slap in the face" before they can see reality.

( You never want to let a good crisis go to waste )

And if you care to do the research, you will find that the controversy of displaying the flag on public property in SC is hardly a new one. This shooting has just renewed it. Hopefully it will shame enough of the flag supporters to remove it completely this time around.

What do they have to be ashamed of ?

Of deliberately displaying a flag that has a direct history of being used to express bigotry and (rightfully) offends the black citizens of our state.

[homersapien 11,381]

There was no huge public outcry for its removal the day , the week or the year before some 21 yr old punk loser on drugs decided he didn't like black folks.

Yet with in a week, a knee jerk reaction occurs, and that's going to cure exactly what ?

A lot of people require a "slap in the face" before they can see reality.

( You never want to let a good crisis go to waste )

And if you care to do the research, you will find that the controversy of displaying the flag on public property in SC is hardly a new one. This shooting has just renewed it. Hopefully it will shame enough of the flag supporters to remove it completely this time around.

What do they have to be ashamed of ? Did any of them come out and support the church shooter ?

If so, I missed it.

And remove it completely from what ? It's already being moved from the state capitol grounds. Where else would you have it removed from ?

And that is a specious, much less idiotic, thing to say.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

So says homer so it must be. Idiots are the expert on idiots.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

Titam....curious. Why was this thread locked then unlocked?

[homersapien 11,381]

So says homer so it must be. Idiots are the expert on idiots.

Idiots "are" as idiots "do".

(In this case, by posting idiotic statements.)

[WarEagle1983 2,185]

There has long been an outcry to remove that flag from government buildings. It just has not been all of sudden...it's simply the fact that after this idiot used it to commit a demonic act that people are finally taking heed. It may mean "history" to some but for my family and many of blacks..it was the flag they saw when they were being hung...beaten...churches and homes being blown up. So I guess it would be ok to bring back nazi flags too? It would be the same thing. That's history but the country would erupt if that happened. So how is this any different? I don't care about individuals having it on their cars...taking pictures with it...could care less. That's a person's individual right. However if we're suppose to be ONE NATION under God...equality to all and being a nation that's together how does that help when a large majority people view that flag as still being separated in some ways.

No we're not segregated but institutional racism is rampant. If people have the belief we can't even trust our government how in the heck are we going to mend and grow race relations? That's part of the issues now. It feels like blacks are supposed to go along with whatever and accept it. Nobody is taking it away but for what our country it claims it stands for that flag is a complete contradiction.

[ShocksMyBrain 9,366]

Good for them:

JUST IN: @CNN reports Walmart will no longer sell #ConfederateFlag merchandise; More on the controversy tonight at 10.

I hate Wal Mart and their business dealings, but good for them.

[WarEagle1983 2,185]

The fact that a 9th grade dropout in 2015 identifies the flag as only a hate symbol tells me what I need to know. He probably didn't even take the time to know it's full meaning beyond the bad. It's history and history has good and bad yet he only got the bad from it.

[alexava 6,973]

There has long been an outcry to remove that flag from government buildings. It just has not been all of sudden...it's simply the fact that after this idiot used it to commit a demonic act that people are finally taking heed. It may mean "history" to some but for my family and many of blacks..it was the flag they saw when they were being hung...beaten...churches and homes being blown up. So I guess it would be ok to bring back nazi flags too? It would be the same thing. That's history but the country would erupt if that happened. So how is this any different? I don't care about individuals having it on their cars...taking pictures with it...could care less. That's a person's individual right. However if we're suppose to be ONE NATION under God...equality to all and being a national that's together how does that help when a large majority people view that flag as still being separated in some ways.

No we're not segregated but institutional racism is rampant. If people have the belief we can't even trust our government how in the heck are we going to mend and grow race relations? That's part of the issues now. It feels like blacks are supposed to go along with whatever and accept it. Nobody is taking it away but for what our country it claims it stands for that flag is a complete contradiction.

we agree.

[autigeremt 6,636]

I don't tell blacks to get over slavery. They can do whatever they want with it. It's part of their heritage, even though it's bad. I would tell them don't blame me for it and don't tell me I owe you something because of it.

I agree with you, somewhat. We do not have a system in which the "sins" or crimes of the father are legally transmitted to the son or later generations. That does not mean later generations, out of the goodness of their hearts or shame for their ancestors' actions, can't choose to make amends. If my great-grandfather stole money, my personal code of ethics would make me want to do justice for any such stolen loot that passed down to me through his estate.

But then, if we're talking reparations or past injustices, I'd tell African-Americans that whatever they may be owed or whatever transgressions were inflicted upon their ancestors, their claim comes behind the Native Americans who had an entire continent stolen and were victims of genocide. Of course, that also begs the question(s): What does modern England owe modern Scotland for atrocities of the Middle Ages? Do European governments and/or the Catholic Church owe modern Wiccans anything for the days of witch burnings? Does modern Egypt owe Jews or modern Israel for the years the Hebrews of Moses' time spent in captivity?

But back to the Confederate Battle Flag:

We should always remember our heritage, but that includes remembering and admitting to the ugly things in our heritage. Most folks who claim the Stars & Bars reminds them of their proud heritage conveniently overlook the fact that that particular period in our southern heritage is something to be ashamed of, not proud of. Hitler will always be a part of German heritage, but only a neo-Nazi would proudly fly the Nazi flag in commemoration of it. In fact, it is illegal in Germany today to display Nazi symbolism as a point of pride. (And the Nazis didn't even commit armed treasonous revolt against their standing national government as the Confederates did, although they did use strong arm tactics in the streets to influence elections.)

IMHO, flying the Confederate Battle Flag is not much different than flying the North Vietnamese flag during the Vietnam War, or flying the ISIS flag over US soil today: Sure it's protected freedom of speech for an individual, but not something I'd condone or something a governmental agency--city, state, or federal--should do. I've also always felt that while defacing the U.S. flag is rightfully protected free speech, the freedom to do so is one reason I respect the flag. If the government acted to restrain my freedom of speech, that might give me reason to disrespect the Stars & Stripes in protest.

Technically the flag in question is the St. Andrews cross. The stars and bars was the actual flag of the confederacy (red, white, red thick horizontal stripes with a blue field and the stars in a circle). Just noting it.

[AUDub 11,151]

I don't tell blacks to get over slavery. They can do whatever they want with it. It's part of their heritage, even though it's bad. I would tell them don't blame me for it and don't tell me I owe you something because of it.

I agree with you, somewhat. We do not have a system in which the "sins" or crimes of the father are legally transmitted to the son or later generations. That does not mean later generations, out of the goodness of their hearts or shame for their ancestors' actions, can't choose to make amends. If my great-grandfather stole money, my personal code of ethics would make me want to do justice for any such stolen loot that passed down to me through his estate.

But then, if we're talking reparations or past injustices, I'd tell African-Americans that whatever they may be owed or whatever transgressions were inflicted upon their ancestors, their claim comes behind the Native Americans who had an entire continent stolen and were victims of genocide. Of course, that also begs the question(s): What does modern England owe modern Scotland for atrocities of the Middle Ages? Do European governments and/or the Catholic Church owe modern Wiccans anything for the days of witch burnings? Does modern Egypt owe Jews or modern Israel for the years the Hebrews of Moses' time spent in captivity?

But back to the Confederate Battle Flag:

We should always remember our heritage, but that includes remembering and admitting to the ugly things in our heritage. Most folks who claim the Stars & Bars reminds them of their proud heritage conveniently overlook the fact that that particular period in our southern heritage is something to be ashamed of, not proud of. Hitler will always be a part of German heritage, but only a neo-Nazi would proudly fly the Nazi flag in commemoration of it. In fact, it is illegal in Germany today to display Nazi symbolism as a point of pride. (And the Nazis didn't even commit armed treasonous revolt against their standing national government as the Confederates did, although they did use strong arm tactics in the streets to influence elections.)

IMHO, flying the Confederate Battle Flag is not much different than flying the North Vietnamese flag during the Vietnam War, or flying the ISIS flag over US soil today: Sure it's protected freedom of speech for an individual, but not something I'd condone or something a governmental agency--city, state, or federal--should do. I've also always felt that while defacing the U.S. flag is rightfully protected free speech, the freedom to do so is one reason I respect the flag. If the government acted to restrain my freedom of speech, that might give me reason to disrespect the Stars & Stripes in protest.

Technically the flag in question is the St. Andrews cross. The stars and bars was the actual flag of the confederacy (red, white, red thick horizontal stripes with a blue field and the stars in a circle). Just noting it.

Well it's not the St. Andrew's Cross, though it is an example of one using it in the design. There were several Confederate flags, most of which incorporated what we now consider the Confederate flag in the canton.