FFRF goes after Auburn, Rev. Chette Williams

[homersapien 11,373]

Franklin just sounds butthurt. Got any better examples?

Was my understanding that another of our sports, not football, had volunteer prayer meetings and bible study type things under a ex coach. According to players I knew attendance did have a role in playing time.

And that's my beef. I can't speak to any specific instances where this happened at Auburn, but the whole " Join us " mindset plays right into the organized team sport mindset. And it doesn't have to involve religion, even a little. The ' our way or else ' theme can crop up in all sorts of ways, and of that, I CAN speak to , from personal experience . Prayer meetings are just a vehicle by which this can be achieved. Unspoken threats of loss of PT or even scholarship for those who don't fall in line may be all too common, I suspect.

Well what do you know. We now have two things we agree on: this, and no excuses for hitting a woman.

The cold snap in Hell continues.

[homersapien 11,373]

While I think it's great that our players have access to Rev. Chette, I do think that there is a real possibility of players feeling forced to participate who may not otherwise feel comfortable participating in FCA, group prayer or Bible studies. I am also uncomfortable with the fact that he has an office on campus. While he may not be a paid AU employee, it does feel like Auburn-paid office space is stepping in some uncomfortable grey area.

There are several other groups and operations on campus that have space at Auburn who do not pay for it. It can be defined as part of the outreach (or int his case extension) of Auburn's mission. I don't hear anyone claiming that they are a part of Auburn University? I also do not feel that players of being pressured to be a part of FCA.

I'm just saying that it could be perceived as pressure, which ends up having the same effect. Christian athletes may not feel pressured at all, and even see this as part of team activities. Someone who isn't Christian or those who aren't religious at all could see it very differently, yet feel like speaking up or not participating harms them in terms of playing time, etc.

Exactly.

Perhaps the problem here is that many people have never experienced this sort of thing.

[homersapien 11,373]

Let me see, on the Auburn campus there are outreach groups for the Auburn Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual Caucus, Bangladesh Student Organization, Black Student Union, Chinese Student Association, Indian Student Association, International Student Organization, Jewish Student Organization, Korean Student Association...just to name a few...so does this give the appearance and create pressure on campus to turn students into Gay-Lesbian-Bisexual-Bangladeshi-Black- Chinese-Jewish-Koreans?

:-\

[autigeremt 6,616]

While I think it's great that our players have access to Rev. Chette, I do think that there is a real possibility of players feeling forced to participate who may not otherwise feel comfortable participating in FCA, group prayer or Bible studies. I am also uncomfortable with the fact that he has an office on campus. While he may not be a paid AU employee, it does feel like Auburn-paid office space is stepping in some uncomfortable grey area.

There are several other groups and operations on campus that have space at Auburn who do not pay for it. It can be defined as part of the outreach (or int his case extension) of Auburn's mission. I don't hear anyone claiming that they are a part of Auburn University? I also do not feel that players of being pressured to be a part of FCA.

I'm just saying that it could be perceived as pressure, which ends up having the same effect. Christian athletes may not feel pressured at all, and even see this as part of team activities. Someone who isn't Christian or those who aren't religious at all could see it very differently, yet feel like speaking up or not participating harms them in terms of playing time, etc.

Exactly.

Perhaps the problem here is that many people have never experienced this sort of thing.

Maybe....but perception and reality have a hard time meaning the same thing. At some point people have to be responsible for their own decisions. I don't believe there's a problem here but I am a believer so shoot me. lol

[homersapien 11,373]

While I think it's great that our players have access to Rev. Chette, I do think that there is a real possibility of players feeling forced to participate who may not otherwise feel comfortable participating in FCA, group prayer or Bible studies. I am also uncomfortable with the fact that he has an office on campus. While he may not be a paid AU employee, it does feel like Auburn-paid office space is stepping in some uncomfortable grey area.

There are several other groups and operations on campus that have space at Auburn who do not pay for it. It can be defined as part of the outreach (or int his case extension) of Auburn's mission. I don't hear anyone claiming that they are a part of Auburn University? I also do not feel that players of being pressured to be a part of FCA.

I'm just saying that it could be perceived as pressure, which ends up having the same effect. Christian athletes may not feel pressured at all, and even see this as part of team activities. Someone who isn't Christian or those who aren't religious at all could see it very differently, yet feel like speaking up or not participating harms them in terms of playing time, etc.

Exactly.

Perhaps the problem here is that many people have never experienced this sort of thing.

Maybe....but perception and reality have a hard time meaning the same thing. At some point people have to be responsible for their own decisions. I don't believe there's a problem here but I am a believer so shoot me. lol

I disagree. I would say that perception and reality are sometimes - if not often - the same.

But I don't get the "being responsible for their own decisions" part. Not sure how that factors into what is basically a discussion of group dynamics.

[channonc 466]

While I think it's great that our players have access to Rev. Chette, I do think that there is a real possibility of players feeling forced to participate who may not otherwise feel comfortable participating in FCA, group prayer or Bible studies. I am also uncomfortable with the fact that he has an office on campus. While he may not be a paid AU employee, it does feel like Auburn-paid office space is stepping in some uncomfortable grey area.

There are several other groups and operations on campus that have space at Auburn who do not pay for it. It can be defined as part of the outreach (or int his case extension) of Auburn's mission. I don't hear anyone claiming that they are a part of Auburn University? I also do not feel that players of being pressured to be a part of FCA.

I'm just saying that it could be perceived as pressure, which ends up having the same effect. Christian athletes may not feel pressured at all, and even see this as part of team activities. Someone who isn't Christian or those who aren't religious at all could see it very differently, yet feel like speaking up or not participating harms them in terms of playing time, etc.

Exactly.

Perhaps the problem here is that many people have never experienced this sort of thing.

Maybe....but perception and reality have a hard time meaning the same thing. At some point people have to be responsible for their own decisions. I don't believe there's a problem here but I am a believer so shoot me. lol

I disagree. I would say that perception and reality are sometimes - if not often - the same.

But I don't get the "being responsible for their own decisions" part. Not sure how that factors into what is basically a discussion of group dynamics.

You beat me to it. In this case perception and reality really end up being the same thing.

At the end of the day, I subscribe to quietfan's observation, if you plug in a religion that isn't your own into this scenario, do you feel differently about it?

[TitanTiger 20,482]

I would like a link to Tony Franklin''s statement.

Here. The only other source I saw was behind a paywall at the Montgomery Advertiser.

http://sports.yahoo....rn=ncaaf-168657

Franklin was also troubled by the constant talk about religion within the athletic department. From Tuberville to [athletic director Jay] Jacobs to most of the assistants, the talk of God and prayer never ended.

"That's all they do is pray -- and talk about praying and religion," Franklin said. "It's a constant thing with them, and it's just overwhelming at times. A lot of people use religion as a crutch, and I think that's the case there. Every word coming out of their mouths is something about religion, and most of it is just a joke."

This isn't exactly a statement of the coercive nature of religion on the AU team. It's a statement of someone who admittedly isn't all that religious being uncomfortable or annoyed with how much coaches and AD people talked about prayer and religion themselves. Nothing to do with the players or their activities.

And even sticking within the coaching staff and AD, he doesn't even make a claim that it was coercive or somehow affected his employment status there. In context, his statement comes of more as someone that feels these folks talked religion while not always living it out or being insincere.

Did he say anything beyond this?

Actually, I found more of the quote after the point where the one above ended:

"I don't want to come off as anti-religion or that I'm not a Christian, but the best people in the world — the ones who do truly great things — they just do good things for people. You don't know most of the time if they're Muslim or Christian or anything else, because they never talk about it. But it was constant with them, and it was uncomfortable sometimes.

When you talk about your religion so much, it comes off as fake or phony. That's the way I think of several of those people [at Auburn] as fake."

http://www.thewizofo...-at-auburn.html

This only leads me to believe even more that in full context, Franklin was not implying that the coaches or admin at Auburn were coercing kids with religion but that he simply found so much talk about one's religion to be fake or phony. It annoyed him and didn't fit his personality when it comes to matters of religion.

A lot of focus and discussion on religion by the authority figures in a given organization is inherently coercive to anyone in a subordinate roll in that organization.

I don't think so. If I worked with a bunch of Jewish people in NYC and they talked religious stuff a lot, that doesn't come off as coercive to me in and of itself. There has to be something a bit more overt or intentional to start tossing around coercion to me.

[alexava 6,973]

It would be nice to read one thread on this forum without all the snark going back & forth from the usual suspects.

I think it was Tony Franklin who first mentioned the issue with the coercive nature of Christian influence on the AU team. Of course, he was embattled on all fronts while at AU so it's hard to distinguish from all the complaints that he had which was bothering him the most.

That said, I think the FFRF is off base on their unconstitutional claim because it focuses on the 1st Amendment's "establishment" clause, but conveniently ignores the "free exp<b></b>ression thereof" clause. If a university's athletic team freely chooses to have a chaplain minister to their team, then isn't that their right? As long as no team members are forced to adopt the faith of the chaplain, then what's the problem? Freedom to partake or not in religious activities is the ultimate in freedom. I don't see an issue with FFRF attempts to educate/inform athletes of their civil rights -- if that is the true goal.

I would like a link to Tony Franklin''s statement.

i don't remember reading it anywhere but i heard it live on paul finebaum. He accused auburn of using religion as a "crutch" . said all the meetings started with prayer and it made him uncomfortable because his faith was very private and personal to him.

If that is true, then FFRF has a valid point and Franklin should be their mouthpiece.

I agree. Starting a routine team meeting with a prayer would be way out of line.

i don't think it was team meetings, but staff or AD meetings.

Not quite as bad, but still wrong. I wonder if they asked about religious beliefs in the hiring interview?

it was not a problem until after he was fired. His salary from Troy tripled. He would have let Phil Roberson baptism him in a pile of rattlesnakes if it would have got him in the SEC.

[AUloggerhead 2,231]

While I think it's great that our players have access to Rev. Chette, I do think that there is a real possibility of players feeling forced to participate who may not otherwise feel comfortable participating in FCA, group prayer or Bible studies. I am also uncomfortable with the fact that he has an office on campus. While he may not be a paid AU employee, it does feel like Auburn-paid office space is stepping in some uncomfortable grey area.

There are several other groups and operations on campus that have space at Auburn who do not pay for it. It can be defined as part of the outreach (or int his case extension) of Auburn's mission. I don't hear anyone claiming that they are a part of Auburn University? I also do not feel that players of being pressured to be a part of FCA.

I'm just saying that it could be perceived as pressure, which ends up having the same effect. Christian athletes may not feel pressured at all, and even see this as part of team activities. Someone who isn't Christian or those who aren't religious at all could see it very differently, yet feel like speaking up or not participating harms them in terms of playing time, etc.

Exactly.

Perhaps the problem here is that many people have never experienced this sort of thing.

Maybe....but perception and reality have a hard time meaning the same thing. At some point people have to be responsible for their own decisions. I don't believe there's a problem here but I am a believer so shoot me. lol

I disagree. I would say that perception and reality are sometimes - if not often - the same.

But I don't get the "being responsible for their own decisions" part. Not sure how that factors into what is basically a discussion of group dynamics.

A good many of these scholarship athletes have multiple offers, and choose to attend one school over all others. Why is that? Could it be they want to be a part of an athletic program that actually has a chaplain with whom that they can relate?

[telling tiger 156]

It could also mean that never entered the equation.......for some. Just as it likely did for some...

That is a reach, at best.

[autigeremt 6,616]

While I think it's great that our players have access to Rev. Chette, I do think that there is a real possibility of players feeling forced to participate who may not otherwise feel comfortable participating in FCA, group prayer or Bible studies. I am also uncomfortable with the fact that he has an office on campus. While he may not be a paid AU employee, it does feel like Auburn-paid office space is stepping in some uncomfortable grey area.

There are several other groups and operations on campus that have space at Auburn who do not pay for it. It can be defined as part of the outreach (or int his case extension) of Auburn's mission. I don't hear anyone claiming that they are a part of Auburn University? I also do not feel that players of being pressured to be a part of FCA.

I'm just saying that it could be perceived as pressure, which ends up having the same effect. Christian athletes may not feel pressured at all, and even see this as part of team activities. Someone who isn't Christian or those who aren't religious at all could see it very differently, yet feel like speaking up or not participating harms them in terms of playing time, etc.

Exactly.

Perhaps the problem here is that many people have never experienced this sort of thing.

Maybe....but perception and reality have a hard time meaning the same thing. At some point people have to be responsible for their own decisions. I don't believe there's a problem here but I am a believer so shoot me. lol

I disagree. I would say that perception and reality are sometimes - if not often - the same.

But I don't get the "being responsible for their own decisions" part. Not sure how that factors into what is basically a discussion of group dynamics.

You beat me to it. In this case perception and reality really end up being the same thing.

At the end of the day, I subscribe to quietfan's observation, if you plug in a religion that isn't your own into this scenario, do you feel differently about it?

I don't when it is optional, as this case is. Pat Dye had a team Chaplin. I don't remember too much being said about Dr. George Mathison. I walk humbly with my God. I don't see why these kids can't do the same thing while playing for Auburn University if they so choose to do so.

[DKW 86 7,423]

Franklin just sounds butthurt. Got any better examples?

Was Franklin sober when he said it? I have never seen Franklin sober. Never saw him in clean clothes, hair combed, with his shirt tucked properly either. He was drunk the morning he was fired.

Wow! What a couple of "Christian" Aholes. Keep up the good lords work...

Truth is truth bruh. You sound a little butthurt as well.

Does it really matter how or why Franklin feels about it, if it happened?

Who said it actually happened? TF was a drunk that left on bad terms.

He went on PFRN to keep the crap stirred.

Can you really say that you can believe a very very disgruntled employee?

[DKW 86 7,423]

Semi related question here, I'm sure most of us played sports growing up, and I'm sure some of us were not Christians at the time.

I never felt pressured to be a christian due to prayer circles before or after practices/games. Nor did I ever feel pressured because there was a Christian pastor there usually. Did anyone else ever feel pressured by those attacks to change their entire belief system?

BTW, If I had anything negative to say about the experience it would be how woefully inadequate the pastor was in dealing with non-Christians who came to him. It would have been cool had they had multiple faith leaders to at least cover the 3 largest religions of the community, or one guy who was well versed in all three.

That sounds like a Military Chaplain...

[autigeremt 6,616]

Franklin just sounds butthurt. Got any better examples?

Was Franklin sober when he said it? I have never seen Franklin sober. Never saw him in clean clothes, hair combed, with his shirt tucked properly either. He was drunk the morning he was fired.

Wow! What a couple of "Christian" Aholes. Keep up the good lords work...

Truth is truth bruh. You sound a little butthurt as well.

Does it really matter how or why Franklin feels about it, if it happened?

Who said it actually happened? TF was a drunk that left on bad terms.

He went on PFRN to keep the crap stirred.

Can you really say that you can believe a very very disgruntled employee?

Sure he can...when it fits the narrative that he relates too.

[DKW 86 7,423]

Franklin just sounds butthurt. Got any better examples?

Was Franklin sober when he said it? I have never seen Franklin sober. Never saw him in clean clothes, hair combed, with his shirt tucked properly either. He was drunk the morning he was fired.

Wow! What a couple of "Christian" Aholes. Keep up the good lords work...

Yeah, attacking the messenger.

Again, i have spent some time with TF. Nice enough guy, but folks, the man has real issues.

No one here would take him at his word against dozens of guys.

[DKW 86 7,423]

Franklin just sounds butthurt. Got any better examples?

Was Franklin sober when he said it? I have never seen Franklin sober. Never saw him in clean clothes, hair combed, with his shirt tucked properly either. He was drunk the morning he was fired.

Wow! What a couple of "Christian" Aholes. Keep up the good lords work...

Truth is truth bruh. You sound a little butthurt as well.

Does it really matter how or why Franklin feels about it, if it happened?

Who said it actually happened? TF was a drunk that left on bad terms.

He went on PFRN to keep the crap stirred.

Can you really say that you can believe a very very disgruntled employee?

Sure he can...when it fits the narrative that he relates too.

Touche' It's very very predictable.

trash dozens of good coaches, players, admin staff, on the words of one guy that has real issues.

[autigeremt 6,616]

Auburn Football and Bible Don’t Mix!

By wareagle3020 on August 25th, 2015 in Football 2 Comments »

An individual has been asked to be removed from the Auburn University football program. No, it’s not a running back or quarterback. He hasn’t made a single tackle or sack. He doesn’t throw, kick, or catch a football. He simply motivates and inspires young football players to be men of character and integrity. He is the team chaplain, Rev. Chette Williams.

Chette Williams or “Brother Chette”, as the football teams knows him, has been touching the lives of Auburn football players as chaplain since 1999 when then coach, Tommy Tubberville brought him on as team chaplain. He is a 1985 graduate of Auburn and a three year letterman from 1982-84. He is also the Auburn campus director for Fellowship of Christian Athletes and the state director for Urban Ministries for FCA. Williams is an Auburn man through and through. So the question arises, “Who is asking for his dismissal from the Auburn Football Team?”

The Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF), a national organization that prides itself on attacking organizations with separation of church and state issues, has requested Auburn University, as well as other SEC and ACC universities, to cease all religious workings by a chaplain inside the doors of the athletic department. It’s the sentiment of the FFRF that football and the bible do not mix. Consequently,a letter was filed to Auburn University President Jay Gogue last Tuesday detailing the request. Auburn University quickly responded on Thursday of last week in a short statement:

“Chaplains are common in many public institutions, including the US Congress. The football team chaplain isn’t an Auburn employee, and participation in activities he leads are voluntary”

President Gogue is correct. Brother Chette is not an Auburn employee. Although he has a BIO on Auburntigers.com as the Team Chaplain, he receives no income from the university. Rather, he supports his ministry with various fundraisers and a banquet each year.

President Gogue is also correct in saying that the activities Brother Chette leads, is not, nor ever have been mandatory attendance for the football players, although most choose to attend. If you have been to an Auburn football game, you have no doubt seen the large mass of football players after the game, many times from BOTH teams on the field, come to the center and clasp hands together, shoulder to shoulder and kneel in a prayer. Many participate, but not all, and there has never been a requirement from the university to attend such activities as evidenced by some athletes heading to the locker room instead of participating.

So why is the FFRF so dogmatic in its pursuit of stopping Brother Chette to the point of considering an open-records lawsuit against the university? Good question.

Perhaps they are wanting their moment in the spotlight. I don’t know, but I tend to believe that is the reason for most of these groups. But I do know this, here at Auburn University, there is a man who is an example to many young men, many of whom after graduation will never play beyond Pat Dye Field.

They will not make it into the NFL. They will go into the world of careers and jobs. They will start families, build homes, live in communities just like the rest of us. And I want to believe that when times come in their lives, struggles and victories, the name “Brother Chette” will come to their mind and they may remember something that was said one night in the locker room before or after a game. And it may just help them through that struggle in life. People like the ones who are running FFRF probably will never understand how that locker room moment can change a young man forever, but Brother Chette understands, and will keep doing what he believes he is called to do.

In just a few short days, the 2015 Auburn Tiger football season will begin. We will cheer and shout as our Auburn Tigers take the field behind those giant flags and smoke. We will get immersed in the grandeur and pomp of the cheers, the eagle flight, the band marching on the field. But just remember, before any of those boys take the field, there will be a moment when a man, Brother Chette, will stand up in the locker room and give them some words to live by that will carry on way pass the game on the field. And I for one appreciate that. I stand by Brother Chette. I admire him and count him a valuable asset to our team. He loves Auburn and he loves the players he ministers to. And it’s men like that, my friend, as to why I can say, it’s great to be an Auburn Tiger! God bless you, Brother Chette.

- See more at: http://trackemtigers.com/auburn-football-and-bible-dont-mix/#sthash.3Ioom80I.KwSatQLk.dpuf

[japantiger 4,051]

When our institutions openly attack a man doing so much good; we are truly lost. We lament which young "lives matter" and we have a man working to make all these lives better; and most of these lives that he is trying to make better are young black lives; yet we have organizations who place their hate above the lives of these young men...and I am frankly shocked that anyone on here finds issue with this. As I have pointed out many times on here; the issue in the black community is lack of leadership....here you have a man providing that leadership; and you attack him and his program because your concerned about appearances. Shame on you. You're no better than Al Sharpton or any of the other race baiters and political hacks exploiting this situation. We need more programs like this...on every campus and in every neighborhood.

[Mims44 1,869]

Semi related question here, I'm sure most of us played sports growing up, and I'm sure some of us were not Christians at the time.

I never felt pressured to be a christian due to prayer circles before or after practices/games. Nor did I ever feel pressured because there was a Christian pastor there usually. Did anyone else ever feel pressured by those attacks to change their entire belief system?

BTW, If I had anything negative to say about the experience it would be how woefully inadequate the pastor was in dealing with non-Christians who came to him. It would have been cool had they had multiple faith leaders to at least cover the 3 largest religions of the community, or one guy who was well versed in all three.

That sounds like a Military Chaplain...

That was what I was thinking actually. We had a very good military chaplain in Iraq, talked and prayed with people of many faiths before we went on mission. Someone like our chaplain could be a boon not just to Auburn but to many places around the country.

[aujeff11 6,243]

Chaplains have it made. Every unit under him is always willing to give him trigger time on any weapon system but they never have to do anything hard because they have an enlisted chaplain assistant to do the mundane stuff for them. I know my true calling in life.

[Texan4Auburn 1,626]

Franklin just sounds butthurt. Got any better examples?

Was my understanding that another of our sports, not football, had volunteer prayer meetings and bible study type things under a ex coach. According to players I knew attendance did have a role in playing time.

Of course, I'd love to put such a claim to some scrutiny rather than accept it at face value. Was it that attendance affected playing time or was it that the better players were already folks who wanted to attend such meetings? If you compared key stats for various positions, would we find that it just so happened that the attendees were also better performers overall, which would indicate that correlation does not equal causation.

It's not like players on sports teams have never insinuated that certain folks were starting or playing more due to something other than performance in games. If it wasn't Bible study attendance, it would be brown-nosing the coach or the parents being personal friends with a coach, or something else.

Given the coach was fired and a major question involved was utilization of players and playing time by many. I will go with the players in this one.

[Texan4Auburn 1,626]

Franklin just sounds butthurt. Got any better examples?

Was my understanding that another of our sports, not football, had volunteer prayer meetings and bible study type things under a ex coach. According to players I knew attendance did have a role in playing time.

Of course, I'd love to put such a claim to some scrutiny rather than accept it at face value. Was it that attendance affected playing time or was it that the better players were already folks who wanted to attend such meetings? If you compared key stats for various positions, would we find that it just so happened that the attendees were also better performers overall, which would indicate that correlation does not equal causation.

It's not like players on sports teams have never insinuated that certain folks were starting or playing more due to something other than performance in games. If it wasn't Bible study attendance, it would be brown-nosing the coach or the parents being personal friends with a coach, or something else.

But they don't want to hear that Titan, that messes up their agenda. Christian aholes!

Ya, I don't remember many complaints (if there was any at all) when the move to remove was made though. Many a good Christian cheered,saluted, endorsed, and called for the downfall and unemployment of the individual.

But I appreciate you being all Christian like and automatically judging others cause their info doesn't meet your agenda.

[TitanTiger 20,482]

Franklin just sounds butthurt. Got any better examples?

Was my understanding that another of our sports, not football, had volunteer prayer meetings and bible study type things under a ex coach. According to players I knew attendance did have a role in playing time.

Of course, I'd love to put such a claim to some scrutiny rather than accept it at face value. Was it that attendance affected playing time or was it that the better players were already folks who wanted to attend such meetings? If you compared key stats for various positions, would we find that it just so happened that the attendees were also better performers overall, which would indicate that correlation does not equal causation.

It's not like players on sports teams have never insinuated that certain folks were starting or playing more due to something other than performance in games. If it wasn't Bible study attendance, it would be brown-nosing the coach or the parents being personal friends with a coach, or something else.

Given the coach was fired and a major question involved was utilization of players and playing time by many. I will go with the players in this one.

That's some very selective remembering. The coach was fired because recruiting fell off, especially on the offensive side. We missed big evaluating QB recruits the last two years before he was let go. Then he made a disastrous and drastic change in offensive philosophy that didn't go well because he didn't grasp that Franklin needed assistants who believed in his system. We had limped to a mediocre 8-4 in 2007 and finished a 5-7 2008 season with a 36-0 pounding from Bama. Meanwhile, Saban came in across the state by his second year had made Alabama a recruiting machine, and had them undefeated and playing in the SEC title game.

Arguing over playing time (or insinuating it was somehow tied to Bible study attendance) is akin to straightening the chairs on the deck of the Titanic as it goes down. You're doing some serious reading into things to hold on to a conclusion by a handful of players.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, as the saying goes. You can't just accept their suspicions at face value simply because it goes along with the argument you wish to make on this matter.

[Weegle777 78]

It would be nice to read one thread on this forum without all the snark going back & forth from the usual suspects.

I think it was Tony Franklin who first mentioned the issue with the coercive nature of Christian influence on the AU team. Of course, he was embattled on all fronts while at AU so it's hard to distinguish from all the complaints that he had which was bothering him the most.

That said, I think the FFRF is off base on their unconstitutional claim because it focuses on the 1st Amendment's "establishment" clause, but conveniently ignores the "free exp<b></b>ression thereof" clause. If a university's athletic team freely chooses to have a chaplain minister to their team, then isn't that their right? As long as no team members are forced to adopt the faith of the chaplain, then what's the problem? Freedom to partake or not in religious activities is the ultimate in freedom. I don't see an issue with FFRF attempts to educate/inform athletes of their civil rights -- if that is the true goal.

I would like a link to Tony Franklin''s statement.

i don't remember reading it anywhere but i heard it live on paul finebaum. He accused auburn of using religion as a "crutch" . said all the meetings started with prayer and it made him uncomfortable because his faith was very private and personal to him.

If that is true, then FFRF has a valid point and Franklin should be their mouthpiece.

I agree. Starting a routine team meeting with a prayer would be way out of line.

i don't think it was team meetings, but staff or AD meetings.

Not quite as bad, but still wrong. I wonder if they asked about religious beliefs in the hiring interview?

it was not a problem until after he was fired. His salary from Troy tripled. He would have let Phil Roberson baptism him in a pile of rattlesnakes if it would have got him in the SEC.

Exactly. He was fired in a way that pissed him off and he started spewing venom. The ONLY reason people here are coming to Franklin's defense is because it fits their narrative.

[Weegle777 78]

Franklin just sounds butthurt. Got any better examples?

Was my understanding that another of our sports, not football, had volunteer prayer meetings and bible study type things under a ex coach. According to players I knew attendance did have a role in playing time.

Of course, I'd love to put such a claim to some scrutiny rather than accept it at face value. Was it that attendance affected playing time or was it that the better players were already folks who wanted to attend such meetings? If you compared key stats for various positions, would we find that it just so happened that the attendees were also better performers overall, which would indicate that correlation does not equal causation.

It's not like players on sports teams have never insinuated that certain folks were starting or playing more due to something other than performance in games. If it wasn't Bible study attendance, it would be brown-nosing the coach or the parents being personal friends with a coach, or something else.

But they don't want to hear that Titan, that messes up their agenda. Christian aholes! :laugh:/>

Ya, I don't remember many complaints (if there was any at all) when the move to remove was made though. Many a good Christian cheered,saluted, endorsed, and called for the downfall and unemployment of the individual.

But I appreciate you being all Christian like and automatically judging others cause their info doesn't meet your agenda.

And in the same breath you have done that which you have just accused me of. Hypocrisy much?