First charges filed in Mueller investigation (merged)

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

Just now, homersapien said:

You don't know if he is innocent or not.  All you know is that he hasn't been indicted.  That's hardly the same as being innocent.

Innocence is presumed in America. Not something to be proven

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

5 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

I somehow have my reservations that this reluctance to believe what is clearly a reasonable inference here would be present if this entire saga were about a Democrat politician such as Obama or Hillary.  Amazing how we are so much more willing to suspend judgment when its 'our guy' in the crosshairs.

Call and explain to Mueller. 

[TitanTiger 20,472]

Just now, NolaAuTiger said:

Call and explain to Mueller. 

You seem to think he's done.

[HVAU 673]

16 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

I don't have to paint another picture. Trump is still innocent. Nothing has changed. The narrative of Trump collusion is laughable because it has no evidentiary basis. 

You should read more thoroughly.  I was pointing out that you shouldn't be portraying other posters as "desperate" given your own reluctance to make logical inferences.

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

2 minutes ago, HVAU said:

You should read more thoroughly.  I was pointing out that you shouldn't be portraying other posters as "desperate" given your own reluctance to make logical inferences.

Why else push a narrative that has no legal basis? It's not logical to make inferences with no legal basis.

 

[homersapien 11,367]

21 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

Innocence is presumed in America. Not something to be proven

Yes, from a legal perspective.   Actual innocence or guilt is determined by what the suspect did or didn't do.  

My statement still stands, you don't know if he's innocent or not.

[homersapien 11,367]

2 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

Why else push a narrative that has no legal basis? It's not logical to make inferences with no legal basis.

 

   What the heck does that mean?

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

*Papad and Manafort get indicted. Indictments show no signs of Trump collusion 

Trump opposition - "Oh yes! Boom! See told you this isn't over. Trump going down!"

Sounds about right...

[AUDub 11,147]

17 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

Why else push a narrative that has no legal basis? It's not logical to make inferences with no legal basis.Means pushing the narrative of Trump collusion is act of desperation. Still hurting from election night.

You're arguing with strawmen.

[homersapien 11,367]

11 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

*Papad and Manafort get indicted. Indictments show no signs of Trump collusion 

Trump opposition - "Oh yes! Boom! See told you this isn't over. Trump going down!"

Sounds about right...

That's overly simplistic.  Here's a more accurate version:

 

The Trump-Russia scandal: everything we know so far, explained

What the publicly known evidence currently shows about potential collusion.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/7/13/15952212/trump-russia-investigation-evidence

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

3 minutes ago, homersapien said:

That's overly simplistic.  Here's a more accurate version:

 

The Trump-Russia scandal: everything we know so far, explained

What the publicly known evidence currently shows about potential collusion.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/7/13/15952212/trump-russia-investigation-evidence

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/10/31/trump-distances-himself-from-indictments-says-papadopoulos-has-proven-to-be-liar.html

 

Here is more accurate version in re Trump collusion. 

[homersapien 11,367]

3 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/10/31/trump-distances-himself-from-indictments-says-papadopoulos-has-proven-to-be-liar.html

 

Here is more accurate version in re Trump collusion. 

No, that's an account of what Trump is saying in his defense.  It is not an account of what is known so far from the investigation.

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

2 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

*Papad and Manafort get indicted. Indictments show no signs of Trump collusion 

Trump opposition - "Oh yes! Boom! See told you this isn't over. Trump going down!"

Sounds about right...

Few things here:

1) I've seen several times that Pap has been referred to as "low-level", including POTUS himself saying that.  Then why, if he is so low-level, did the President name-drop him in an interview during March of 2016, specifically calling him out for being an "excellent guy"?  Wouldn't it be safe to assume that Trump shouldn't know such a low-level person?  Transcript of that interview is right here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2016/03/21/a-transcript-of-donald-trumps-meeting-with-the-washington-post-editorial-board/

2) I've also seen people try to say that Pap had no sway because he was an "unpaid volunteer".  Others who were "unpaid volunteers" on the campaign staff:  Paul Manafort, Steve Bannon, and Jared Kushner.

3) Pap's guilty plea (not indictment) shows that he lied about his original version of events where he said he had no contact with Russia.  The correct version from his guilty plea are as follows, directly from the plea agreement.  It shows that Pap was contacted by Russians after he became a player within the campaign, not before.  That's very important as Trump has maintained that the campaign did not collude.  Trump himself may have plausible deniability, but there's certainly some evidence of potential campaign collusion, especially because Pap reached out with this information to high-level campaign officials who told him to explore the possibility if it was feasible.

"In truth and in fact, however, and as set forth above, defendant PAPADOPOULOS met the Professor for the first time on or about March 14, 2016, after defendant PAPADOPOULOS had already learned he would be a foreign policy advisor for the Campaign; the Professor showed interest in defendant PAPADOPOULOS only after learning of his role on the Campaign; and the Professor told defendant PAPADOPOULOS about the Russians possessing" dirt" on then-candidate Clinton in late April 2016, more than a month after defendant PAPADOPOULOS had joined the Campaign."

"On or about April 26, 2016, defendant PAPADOPOULOS met the Professor for breakfast at a London hotel. During this meeting, the Professor told defendant PAPADOPOULOS that he had just returned from a trip to Moscow where he had met with high-level Russian government officials. The Professor told defendant PAPADOPOULOS that on that trip he (the Professor) learned that the Russians had obtained "dirt" on then-candidate Clinton. The Professor told defendant PAPADOPOULOS, as defendant PAPADOPOULOS later described to the FBI, that "They [the Russians] have dirt on her"; "the Russians had emails of Clinton"; "they have thousands of emails."

This article from Politico has some really great detail, but pay special attention here:

Two other people described in court documents as senior Trump campaign officials also had discussions with Papadopoulos about Russia’s interest in meeting with Trump, including in Moscow. When that didn’t seem possible, Papadopoulos relayed to campaign officials that his contacts in Russia’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs asked if someone else could go.

After volunteering himself, Papadopoulos received an email from an unidentified Trump campaign supervisor saying, “I would encourage you” and another adviser to make the trip “if it is feasible.” The campaign adviser identified that official as Sam Clovis, a top campaign official and now senior Trump adviser.

That was just a few weeks after a June 9 meeting at Trump Tower in which other Russian operatives met with campaign Chairman Paul Manafort, Donald Trump Jr. and senior adviser Jared Kushner, also ostensibly to receive damaging information about Clinton.

And it was around the time Trump campaign manager Corey Lewandowski approved a separate trip to Moscow by another of the unpaid foreign policy advisers, Carter Page, but not as an official representative of the campaign.

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/10/30/papadopoulos-trump-russia-mueller-mystery-244347

 

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

2 minutes ago, homersapien said:

No, that's an account of what Trump is saying in his defense.  It is not an account of what is known so far from the investigation.

What's known so far - indictments, guilty plea, non-guilty pleas, no collusion. 

[homersapien 11,367]

10 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

What's known so far - indictments, guilty plea, non-guilty pleas, no collusion. 

Correct.  Just a lot of suspicious activity suggesting potential collusion.

[AUDub 11,147]

16 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

Every article title infers "Team Trump Guilty of Collusion!".

A lot wrong with your post, but let's focus on this one. It's not true at all.

[homersapien 11,367]

15 minutes ago, Bigbens42 said:

A lot wrong with your post, but let's focus on this one. It's not true at all.

Exactly. But I didn't want to go there. 

Do we really need to start parsing headlines about this news?   

[AUDub 11,147]

1 hour ago, homersapien said:

Correct.  Just a lot of suspicious activity suggesting potential collusion.

This will be really unpopular here, but honestly, I don't see what this nothingburger is all about. Its hard for me to see any Trump ties to Russia. I mean, except for the Flynn thing and the Manafort thing and the Tillerson thing and the Sessions thing and the Kushner thing and the Wray thing and the Morgan, Lewis, & Bockius "Russian Law Firm of the Year" thing and the Carter Page thing and the Roger Stone thing and the 198 Million voter records thing and the Felix Sater thing and the Boris Ephsteyn thing and the Rosneft thing and the Gazprom thing and the Sergey Gorkov banker thing and the Azerbaijan thing and the “I love Putin” thing and the Donald Trump, Jr. thing and the Lavrov thing and the Kislyak thing and the Oval Office thing and the Gingrich/Kislyak phone calls thing and the Russian Business Interests thing and the Emoluments Clause thing and the Alex Schnaider thing and the hack of the DNC thing and the Guccifer 2.0 thing and the Mike Pence “I don’t know anything” thing and the Russians mysteriously dying thing and Trump’s public request to Russia to hack Hillary’s email thing and the Trump house sale for $100 million at the bottom of the housing bust to the Russian fertilizer king thing and the Russian fertilizer king’s plane showing up in Concord, NC during Trump rally campaign thing and the Nunes sudden flight to the White House in the night thing and the Nunes personal investments in the Russian winery thing and the Cyprus bank thing and Trump not releasing his tax returns thing and the Republican Party’s rejection of an amendment to require Trump to show his taxes thing and the election hacking thing and the GOP platform change to the Ukraine thing and the Steele Dossier thing and the Sally Yates can’t testify thing and the intelligence community’s investigative reports thing and the Trump reassurance that the Russian connection is all “fake news” thing and the Chaffetz not willing to start an investigation thing and the Chaffetz suddenly deciding to go back to private life in the middle of an investigation thing and the appointment of Pam Bondi who was bribed by Trump in the Trump University scandal appointed to head the investigation thing and the alfa-bank thing and the VEB thing and the The White House going into full-on cover-up mode, refusing to turn over the documents related to the hiring and subsequent firing of Flynn thing and the Chaffetz and White House blaming the poor vetting of Flynn on Obama thing and the Poland and British intelligence gave information regarding the hacking back in 2015 to Paul Ryan and he didn't do anything thing and the Agent M16 following the money thing and the Trump team KNEW about Flynn's involvement but hired him anyway thing and the let’s fire Comey thing and the let's fire Mueller too thing and the Election night Russian trademark gifts thing and the Russian diplomatic compound electronic equipment destruction thing and the let’s give back the diplomatic compounds back to the Russians thing and the let’s back away from Cuba thing and the Jr. met with Russians thing and now Trump's secret second meeting with Putin thing.

[homersapien 11,367]

3 minutes ago, Bigbens42 said:

This will be really unpopular here, but honestly, I don't see what this nothingburger is all about. Its hard for me to see any Trump ties to Russia. I mean, except for the Flynn thing and the Manafort thing and the Tillerson thing and the Sessions thing and the Kushner thing and the Wray thing and the Morgan, Lewis, & Bockius "Russian Law Firm of the Year" thing and the Carter Page thing and the Roger Stone thing and the 198 Million voter records thing and the Felix Sater thing and the Boris Ephsteyn thing and the Rosneft thing and the Gazprom thing and the Sergey Gorkov banker thing and the Azerbaijan thing and the “I love Putin” thing and the Donald Trump, Jr. thing and the Lavrov thing and the Kislyak thing and the Oval Office thing and the Gingrich/Kislyak phone calls thing and the Russian Business Interests thing and the Emoluments Clause thing and the Alex Schnaider thing and the hack of the DNC thing and the Guccifer 2.0 thing and the Mike Pence “I don’t know anything” thing and the Russians mysteriously dying thing and Trump’s public request to Russia to hack Hillary’s email thing and the Trump house sale for $100 million at the bottom of the housing bust to the Russian fertilizer king thing and the Russian fertilizer king’s plane showing up in Concord, NC during Trump rally campaign thing and the Nunes sudden flight to the White House in the night thing and the Nunes personal investments in the Russian winery thing and the Cyprus bank thing and Trump not releasing his tax returns thing and the Republican Party’s rejection of an amendment to require Trump to show his taxes thing and the election hacking thing and the GOP platform change to the Ukraine thing and the Steele Dossier thing and the Sally Yates can’t testify thing and the intelligence community’s investigative reports thing and the Trump reassurance that the Russian connection is all “fake news” thing and the Chaffetz not willing to start an investigation thing and the Chaffetz suddenly deciding to go back to private life in the middle of an investigation thing and the appointment of Pam Bondi who was bribed by Trump in the Trump University scandal appointed to head the investigation thing and the alfa-bank thing and the VEB thing and the The White House going into full-on cover-up mode, refusing to turn over the documents related to the hiring and subsequent firing of Flynn thing and the Chaffetz and White House blaming the poor vetting of Flynn on Obama thing and the Poland and British intelligence gave information regarding the hacking back in 2015 to Paul Ryan and he didn't do anything thing and the Agent M16 following the money thing and the Trump team KNEW about Flynn's involvement but hired him anyway thing and the let’s fire Comey thing and the let's fire Mueller too thing and the Election night Russian trademark gifts thing and the Russian diplomatic compound electronic equipment destruction thing and the let’s give back the diplomatic compounds back to the Russians thing and the let’s back away from Cuba thing and the Jr. met with Russians thing and now Trump's secret second meeting with Putin thing.

Unless I missed it, you left out the we are getting all the money we need from Russia (for golf course development) thing.

[AUDub 11,147]

Just now, homersapien said:

Unless I missed it, you left out the we are getting all the money we need from Russia (for golf course development) thing.

See? There really is nothing there.

[HVAU 673]

11 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Unless I missed it, you left out the we are getting all the money we need from Russia (for golf course development) thing.

I may need to use this elsewhere.  Do you condone?

[homersapien 11,367]

1 hour ago, HVAU said:

I may need to use this elsewhere.  Do you condone?

It's public information.  

http://www.businessinsider.com/eric-trump-golf-courses-russia-funding-2017-5

[wdefromtx 3,159]

 

Best thing that could happen is he has to step down and we go back to a normal swamp creature until the next election and we have better choices from the swamp than Hillary and Trump next go around.

[HVAU 673]

I quoted the wrong post, but I'll add your submission.  I meant that long form post showing all the levels of self delusion necessary to disavow Trump's possible Russia problem.

[AUDub 11,147]

4 minutes ago, wdefromtx said:

 

Best thing that could happen is he has to step down and we go back to a normal swamp creature until the next election and we have better choices from the swamp than Hillary and Trump next go around.

Pence would be a relief at this point.