Time for Prison Reform

[DKW 86 7,727]

On the first & last graphics, they have not marked 1994,
where Joe Biden supported Sentencing Bill was
enacted during the Clinton Administration. 

Quote

 

Time for Prison Reform

These charts show the imprisonment rates in the US. (It's important to consider the total number in relation to the total population). Depending on whose statistics you use, we have somewhere between 700 - 790 persons incarcerated per 100,000 population whereas Germany has 77. Also, about 1 in 55 Americans are either on parole or probation. According to ( https://www.worldatlas.com/…/safest-countries-in-the-world.… ) the United States rates 128 among the safest counties whereas Iceland is #1, Austria #4 and Germany #22. The entire Criminal Justice system is beginning to be addressed in the United States. Other countries consider rehabilitation as the primary goal whereas Americans generally want retribution. North Dakota (a very conservative state), is really taking the lead attempting to copy as much as possible from Norway which has the lowest prison population and the lowest lifetime recidivism rate of 20% compared to about 78% in the US over a 10 year period.

 

 

[aubearcat 2,146]

https://www.npr.org/2019/08/14/751126384/mass-incarceration

I posted this in another thread recently. It’s 48 minutes long but is a really interesting listen. 

[AU64 10,122]

If you are worried about crime it seems that not enough people are in jail...though perhaps the wrong ones 

[DKW 86 7,727]

Just how many do you want in jail? How much $$$ are you willing to waste to incarcerate everyone that has done something stupid in their lives?

[AU64 10,122]

1 hour ago, DKW 86 said:

Just how many do you want in jail? How much $$$ are you willing to waste to incarcerate everyone that has done something stupid in their lives?

Reasonable question and jailing people for smoking dope is probably a waste of time ….but a good percentage of minor property criminals have a record of repeat thefts...and worse before they do something really bad.   I don't track that kind of stuff but seems that just about everyone arrested for violent crimes turns out to have a rap sheet and often I wonder what the guy was doing on the streets when he committed his latest crime. 

So....I guess we pay whatever is necessary to protect society from the predators.

[DKW 86 7,727]

Jail violent people, drug possession and users, not so much

 

[I_M4_AU 8,600]

In Everett, Washington they have initiated a program that the police can drop off addicts at a rehab clinic instead of jail.  This is an initiative to address the homeless issue in the city, but it is an interesting concept:

EVERETT, Wash. — A new opioid treatment center is open in Everett.

Thursday, Everett mayor Cassie Franklin said she sees it as a solution to overcrowding in county jails.

“Not only is that not in the best interest of the people that were ending up in our jail, but it is a costly ineffective method that leads to a revolving door of our jail system,” said Franklin.

 

Franklin said police will now be able to drop off addicts at centers like Ideal Option to receive treatment rather than booking them in nearby jails, a move Franklin said could save taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars.

“During our Community Streets initiative process, we realized, we couldn’t arrest our way out of this problem," she said.

https://komonews.com/news/local/everett-mayor-hopes-new-opioid-treatment-center-will-address-overcrowding-in-jails

[AU64 10,122]

2 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

In Everett, Washington they have initiated a program that the police can drop off addicts at a rehab clinic instead of jail.  This is an initiative to address the homeless issue in the city, but it is an interesting concept:

Good concept for a larger city but most cities don't have any kind of facility to handle stuff like that....especially in the volume that is likely to be involved. 

I have a friend who just love his MJ...and gets arrested from time to time and goes to the local pokey for a time and this is turned loose and back at it....and he won't go to treatment.  Driving people crazy trying to figure out how to help him before he ends up dead. 

[kevon67 2,368]

39 minutes ago, AU64 said:

Good concept for a larger city but most cities don't have any kind of facility to handle stuff like that....especially in the volume that is likely to be involved. 

I have a friend who just love his MJ...and gets arrested from time to time and goes to the local pokey for a time and this is turned loose and back at it....and he won't go to treatment.  Driving people crazy trying to figure out how to help him before he ends up dead. 

Most people refuse to admit MJ is addictive.

[kevon67 2,368]

On 8/26/2019 at 7:38 AM, DKW 86 said:

Just how many do you want in jail? How much $$$ are you willing to waste to incarcerate everyone that has done something stupid in their lives?

People that do something stupid once usually dont recieve prison sentences........To end up with a prison sentence chances are it's not your first brush with the law.

[kevon67 2,368]

On 8/26/2019 at 2:44 PM, AU64 said:

Good concept for a larger city but most cities don't have any kind of facility to handle stuff like that....especially in the volume that is likely to be involved. 

I have a friend who just love his MJ...and gets arrested from time to time and goes to the local pokey for a time and this is turned loose and back at it....and he won't go to treatment.  Driving people crazy trying to figure out how to help him before he ends up dead. 

Skoal was marketed as a safe alternative to cigarettes.......I suppose MJ and it's edibles are being marketed as safe alternative to opioids........hope I don't see the day you go into the hospital for major surgery and your offered a joint and asked to bite a towel.

[homersapien 11,812]

On 8/26/2019 at 3:44 PM, AU64 said:

Good concept for a larger city but most cities don't have any kind of facility to handle stuff like that....especially in the volume that is likely to be involved. 

I have a friend who just love his MJ...and gets arrested from time to time and goes to the local pokey for a time and this is turned loose and back at it....and he won't go to treatment.  Driving people crazy trying to figure out how to help him before he ends up dead. 

Are you saying he gets arrested for possession of cannabis?

[japantiger 4,077]

On 8/26/2019 at 2:44 PM, AU64 said:

Good concept for a larger city but most cities don't have any kind of facility to handle stuff like that....especially in the volume that is likely to be involved. 

I have a friend who just love his MJ...and gets arrested from time to time and goes to the local pokey for a time and this is turned loose and back at it....and he won't go to treatment.  Driving people crazy trying to figure out how to help him before he ends up dead. 

In other words, he is "Otis".

[japantiger 4,077]

On 8/28/2019 at 8:20 AM, kevon67 said:

People that do something stupid once usually dont recieve prison sentences........To end up with a prison sentence chances are it's not your first brush with the law.

Is that accurate?  Serious question. I really don't know on the drug enforcement end of things.  The numbers in prison on drug related charges are huge  and exploded after the Clinton era changes.  The "rhetoric" on this suggests we are sending people to prison for minor and 1st time offenses.  Anyone have data on this?

I think you and DKW are on the right track.  Current laws would need major overhauling or we would wind up with more meaningless laws and a continued erosion of confidence in the justice system.  There does need to be something in place to ensure we don't wind up living in Idiocracy, though.   We need more rehab facilities and programs; and at the same time those that "screw up" aren't just allowed to make that a way of life.  Needs to be something like the NJP process under the UCMJ.  Not jail; but not consequenceless free either.  

[DKW 86 7,727]

2 minutes ago, japantiger said:

Is that accurate?  Serious question. I really don't know on the drug enforcement end of things.  The numbers in prison on drug related charges are huge  and exploded after the Clinton era changes.  The "rhetoric" on this suggests we are sending people to prison for minor and 1st time offenses.  Anyone have data on this?

I think you and DKW are on the right track.  Current laws would need major overhauling or we would wind up with more meaningless laws and a continued erosion of confidence in the justice system.  There does need to be something in place to ensure we don't wind up living in Idiocracy, though.   We need more rehab facilities and programs; and at the same time those that "screw up" aren't just allowed to make that a way of life.  Needs to be something like the NJP process under the UCMJ.  Not jail; but not consequenceless free either.  

I would support that. Community Service versus Jail Time. Everybody but the For-Profit Prison System wins!

[kevon67 2,368]

22 minutes ago, japantiger said:

Is that accurate?  Serious question. I really don't know on the drug enforcement end of things.  The numbers in prison on drug related charges are huge  and exploded after the Clinton era changes.  The "rhetoric" on this suggests we are sending people to prison for minor and 1st time offenses.  Anyone have data on this?

I think you and DKW are on the right track.  Current laws would need major overhauling or we would wind up with more meaningless laws and a continued erosion of confidence in the justice system.  There does need to be something in place to ensure we don't wind up living in Idiocracy, though.   We need more rehab facilities and programs; and at the same time those that "screw up" aren't just allowed to make that a way of life.  Needs to be something like the NJP process under the UCMJ.  Not jail; but not consequenceless free either.  

I can agree with some of that.........Stop breaking the law would also help.

 

[AU64 10,122]

3 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

For-Profit Prison System wins!

Expect you know that these are a small percent of prisons ….and JMO but I doubt they are the driving force behind sentencing recommendations, etc. 

And why  not lay a chart of crime rates from 1990 until the present over the one showing the number of people in jail....I checked a couple and as the number of people in jail increases, the number of violent crimes decreases.....who would have thought that huh....

https://www.statista.com/statistics/191219/reported-violent-crime-rate-in-the-usa-since-1990/

Get the repeat offenders off the street.

Tax payers in most places don't want to pay for new schools, don't want to pay for prison cells and sure don't want to pay for re-hab facilities.....just look at defeated bond campaigns .   That being the case, I'm not sure what governmental bodies do with people that need to be incarcerated to protect others...or for their own protection.   I'm betting most of those on drug offense are not for using but for distribution offenses.....might be users also but distribution is what gets one in serious trouble. 

Maybe it's just me, but I'm not inclined to blame the cops or the courts for the increase in incarcerations.....and more willing to blame the breakdown of families and lack of positive social attitudes. Just check al.com any day of the week and you will shake your head at the crimes they report and the age of culprits and victims too.  

[japantiger 4,077]

3 hours ago, kevon67 said:

I can agree with some of that.........Stop breaking the law would also help.

 

way too logical.  

[DKW 86 7,727]

2 hours ago, AU64 said:

Expect you know that these are a small percent of prisons ….and JMO but I doubt they are the driving force behind sentencing recommendations, etc. 

And why  not lay a chart of crime rates from 1990 until the present over the one showing the number of people in jail....I checked a couple and as the number of people in jail increases, the number of violent crimes decreases.....who would have thought that huh....

https://www.statista.com/statistics/191219/reported-violent-crime-rate-in-the-usa-since-1990/

Get the repeat offenders off the street.

Tax payers in most places don't want to pay for new schools, don't want to pay for prison cells and sure don't want to pay for re-hab facilities.....just look at defeated bond campaigns .   That being the case, I'm not sure what governmental bodies do with people that need to be incarcerated to protect others...or for their own protection.   I'm betting most of those on drug offense are not for using but for distribution offenses.....might be users also but distribution is what gets one in serious trouble. 

Maybe it's just me, but I'm not inclined to blame the cops or the courts for the increase in incarcerations.....and more willing to blame the breakdown of families and lack of positive social attitudes. Just check al.com any day of the week and you will shake your head at the crimes they report and the age of culprits and victims too.  

Do you think that incarceration was the only thing that lowered the violent crime rates?
You do agree that violent crime rates are going down tho?
Why are we continuing to build ever more prisons if crime rate is going down?
Why is the media failing to report that violent crime is going down?
If violent crie is going down due to incarceration, why dont we let non-violent criminals go and concentrate on more violent criminals?

[AU64 10,122]

46 minutes ago, DKW 86 said:

Do you think that incarceration was the only thing that lowered the violent crime rates?
You do agree that violent crime rates are going down tho?
Why are we continuing to build ever more prisons if crime rate is going down?
Why is the media failing to report that violent crime is going down?
If violent crie is going down due to incarceration, why dont we let non-violent criminals go and concentrate on more violent criminals?

I agree that violent crime is going down and the probable reason is that violent criminals are jail at a higher rate.   Not sure what else is responsible for lower crime rates....pretty sure it's not because people are more kind to each other....or that police are doing more on the preventive side of things.  

The fact that non-violent criminals are in jail does not mean they would not return to their larcenous ways...property crimes for example which have also dropped....presumably because more of the repeat offenders are also in jail.   As someone noted above....hardly anyone goes to jail over one violation other than murder.   I've read of people arrested for burglary and somewhere along the line you find that about 50 break-ins are solved.....even in our rural area, the same people are involved in most non-violent crime. B and E, shoplifting ,etc....to feed their drug habits.   . 

Could be that the reduction in crime rates has nothing to do with behavior of the population but the fact that more of the repeat offenders are in jail which removes problems from the streets.....though there is probably a new crop coming along every year...but maybe at a lesser rate.    Might be smarter to "rent" prison space for a period of time until the reduced crime rate eventually results in fewer people in jail and older jails can be closed.    There are apparently some really bad government prisons still in operation and if/when fewer cells are needed, some of the pig sty prisons can be closed. .  

As for the media.....gotta fill that 24 hour news cycle....and it does  not meet their goals to make people feel more secure...which might explain how they over-publicize violent crimes and mislead the public about gun crimes ….which is helpful to the goal of stronger gun laws.  Like recent mass shootings....most media outright lied about mass killings in the US vs other countries.