players meeting to discuss ways to affect change

[homersapien 11,388]

10 minutes ago, wdefromtx said:

It is the media, especially the rise of social media where everyone can post whatever crap they want. In addition, it is the politicians as well. They create a divide to promote their agenda. Some on this board want to only blame that on Trump, it is all of them as both sides have blood on their hands as far as I am concerned.

I agree with you about the overall effect of technology (internet) has had on the country. It's one of those unforeseen effects of technology.  There's no end of sources to get confirmation bias.  And the art of critical thinking has declined.

But Trump is certainly guilty of taking advantage of the environment to the maximum.  He's deliberately turned the presidency into one big reality show by generating conflict in every aspect of our civil society.  It will continue to get worse until he's gone. Whether or not civility improves after he's gone, remains to be seen. 

[McLoofus 35,182]

17 minutes ago, TigerTale said:

OK. I appreciate the respone to understand where you were coming from.

Would you say that some people are predisposed to give the individual that is the subject of a police encountet the benefit of the doubt?

Yup. But I don't think that's a pervading school of thought in this scenario. 

[homersapien 11,388]

1 hour ago, McLoofus said:

Because cops falsifying evidence has never been a thing.

Guess he's never heard the term "throw down gun". 

[McLoofus 35,182]

7 minutes ago, Tigerpro2a said:

That is why this divide is so large. 

It's part of it. But I don't believe it to be the primary issue.

The same information is available to all of us. How we choose to consume and process it is up to us. 

[wdefromtx 3,159]

Just now, homersapien said:

I agree with you about the overall effect of technology (internet) on the country. It's one of those unforeseen effects of technology.  There's no end of sources to get your confirmation bias.

But Trump is certainly guilty of taking advantage of the phenomenon to the max.  He's deliberately turned the presidency into one big reality show by generating conflict in every aspect of our civil society.  It will continue to get worse until he's gone. Whether or not civility improves after he's gone, remains to be seen. 

He's certainly the loudest, but I doubt the divide gets better. It was already starting before him. It started under Obama, but I don't really place it on Obama as much as I do the media. The media has gotten worse and worse (over the last 30 years) with stoking the flames. Trump just adds fuel to what the media lights up, at least Obama didn't add gasoline to a hot fire.

 

Controversy equals clicks and ratings and that is all they care about, CNN, Fox, etc. Not to mention all the more extreme outlets that represent each side.

[McLoofus 35,182]

51 minutes ago, DAG said:

This was something I posted on my social media. Just my unique POV from a black person:

Really a sad state of affairs. But I got to say, three responses really aggravate me.  1). "Why didn't he comply?"  2). Check his record. 3). We do not know the full story. The third one is a true statement, but there is really no reason to rationalize or validate someone being shot 7 times, if you do not see a weapon brandished and if you have multiple officers at the scene. The second comment has nothing to do with the current events.  The first comment is a fair one, but I think people need to realize some cultural variances. I have been pulled over well over 5 times in my life. This is multiple times more than most people. The majority of those times have been in residential areas, which have been predominantly white.  The last three times have been in the last two years. Two of the most recent times have been later in the evening, right after I either was working out or jogging for a late run. Both times, the officers failed to identify themselves, failed to identify why they were pulling me over or stopping me, and never read my rights.  Now, I am lucky enough to have been raised by a wonderful officer, who has taught me how to deal with the law, because he does not want to get a phone call about his son dead by the police. 

Still, you have to wonder, why is it okay for officers just to approach someone without any legal reason to do so. People get tired of getting approached for no specific reasons. Being followed or trailed, knowing the officers are just running your plates (Wauwatosa Police is notorious for this). Eventually, the reaction comes from frustration and it does not help that officers either do not know civilian rights, do not have adequate training for civilian interaction or just plain do not care.  Further, it does not help the situation when officers talk to you in a disrespectful tone, either (This can happen by both parties). I have recently seen post being shared that the police force does not need to be re-trained but the community does. What a good way to displace accountability unto others. As a nurse, I am not only trained on how to treat people in highly stressful situations but also how to react to others who are experiencing high stress. It is up to me to try my best to de-escalate situations occurring with the patient and/or family members, knowing that this may be something they have never dealt with before. If I cannot achieve this, then I must follow protocol and obtain other resources in helping me, hopefully, de-escalate the situation.  

A major problem I see with the police force around my way is that they are not a pillar of the communities.  From my point of view, they do not act in a manner of being one with the community, and therein lies the rub. Empathy and compassion is at loss for their fellow community member and it becomes a "me vs them" mentality. One thing I really was loved about my father was that Corporal Gibbs or Gibbs as they called him was seen as a member of the community of Montgomery, Alabama.  People of all types of occupation, color, gender, etc walked to him and would just converse with him. It didn't matter if he was in the hood, the country, or a ritzy area. Everyone knew him as Gibbs and every single person felt comfortable talking to him and they absolutely did not care that he was an MPD officer. 

We need to get better. We need to have more, very hard conversations. We need to get uncomfortable. We need to stop putting the blame on everyone else and look in the mirror and say what can I do to be better for my community as a whole.

Just wanted to bump this so that it stays on the current page. Withholding further response so as not to re-center or re-frame it.

[DAG 33,995]

Nothing new under the sun folks. We have been divided. It is just now with social media, things cannot be as hidden. This goes back to the sixties. Remember Bloody Sunday? Many African-american historians consider that to be one of the major sparks of the civil rights movement. People really did not get as outraged and moved until they actually SAW the mishaps of the community. What about Rosa Parks and Montgomery bus boycott? We don't even have to go in too much detail regarding Emmett Till. Point being, no this is not anymore divided than what we have seen in the past. It is just now, it is in your face, so you can't run from it. You can't hide from it. It is a discussion that needs to be had. Met with some friends for dinner last night and one of them stated that she is sad because her school district has told parents they need to discuss BLM with their children because the schools WILL be teaching them about it. She wasn't sad that she has to discuss this with her elementary children, but the fact that this has to be stated.  

[McLoofus 35,182]

2 minutes ago, DAG said:

Nothing new under the sun folks. We have been divided. It is just now with social media, things cannot be as hidden. This goes back to the sixties. Remember Bloody Sunday? Many African-american historians consider that to be one of the major sparks of the civil rights movement. People really did not get as outraged and moved until they actually SAW the mishaps of the community. What about Rosa Parks and Montgomery bus boycott? We don't even have to go in too much detail regarding Emmett Till. Point being, no this is not anymore divided than what we have seen in the past. It is just now, it is in your face, so you can't run from it. You can't hide from it. It is a discussion that needs to be had. Met with some friends for dinner last night and one of them stated that she is sad because her school district as told parents they need to discuss BLM with their children because the schools WILL be teaching them about it. She wasn't sad that she has to discuss this with her elementary children, but the fact that this has to be stated.  

There's a podcast that I highly recommend to everyone called 'Slow Burn'. Each season they take something from American history and do a deep dive on it. Nixon, Clinton, Tupac and Biggie, and most recently, David Duke. The David Duke one is very, very interesting to listen to now. The parallels between his political success in Louisiana and Trump's success now are uncanny. Anyway, a black journalist at the time tells a story of going to the SuperDome for a Saints game. During pre-game, pockets of the stadium start simultaneously cheering and booing, one by one as Duke appears from the concourse in front of their sections. The journalist- who had season tickets and who knew the surrounding people very well from attending games together- realizes that their section is going to get a "turn". Sure enough, Duke appears in front of that section and people all around this black person start going ape s*** for an avowed Nazi. 

Like you said. The internet just peels the curtain back. You can see it in action on this site. Ask anyone who's spent any time in the political forum and they'll tell you that they were shocked and dismayed when they found out how their "buddy" thinks about things that actually matter. Numerous people put up a good front in the football forum but quickly reveal some truly dark s*** as soon as they think it's safe to. 

Neither the media nor the internet decides who a person is. That's 100% on them.

[DAG 33,995]

4 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Like you said. The internet just peels the curtain back. You can see it in action on this site. Ask anyone who's spent any time in the political forum and they'll tell you that they were shocked and dismayed when they found out how their "buddy" thinks about things that actually matter. Numerous people put up a good front in the football forum but quickly reveal some truly dark s*** as soon as they think it's safe to. 

This is the gospel right here

[abw0004 10,125]

I guess I will try my absolute best to convey my thoughts on this.  I think a lot of these issues will take time to go away. A lot of these premonitions are engrained into people due to how they were raised.  So it will take generations for these things to die away.  It will be better for my kids as it was for me and my brother compared to my parent's generation.  Also, a lot of people just flat out do not know what others are going through or understand.  For example, for the longest time I did not understand a lot of the unrest.  It wasn't because I was ignorant, just naive I suppose because I did not understand why one would hate another for their skin tone.

I am a white male.  I grew up in a family that was taught to love everyone, no matter their race, sexual identity, etc.  In fact, it took me 4 months to realize an ex-girlfriend of mine was half hispanic just because I never really see people for their race.  Seeing someone that way just doesn't register, I don't care.  I think if someone is beautiful, they are just that, beautiful.  I can also proudly say I was a part of a fraternity at Auburn that did not care about your race, sexual preferences, etc as long as you treated women with respect and kept good grades.  My best friend is black, and came from a family whose father controlled all of the nuclear reactors for the navy and whose mom works at the CDC.  As you can imagine, how he was raised is very different from the communities you see on the news.  That does not mean he hadn't experienced racism.  In fact, one of the few fist fights I have ever been in, was in defense of him because of racial slurs said to him in high school on the bus ride home.  In fact, every African American I ever spoken to has dealt with racism, and that is something I won't experience due to my color.

Not all cops are bad. Not all non-white citizens are thugs.  The issue I see here is we are beginning to paint every group with the same brush.  Another example that I hate, is that Christians are judgmental and non-accepting.  As a Christian I believe we should love everyone, no matter what.  It is hypocritical to judge someone and then turn around and ask God not to judge us.  Nothing will be accomplished until th name-calling in this country stops and everyone works together.  No more BLM vs. Police, Republicans vs. Democrats, etc.  Working together is what will bring change, everything else is spinning wheels.

I support the NBA, MLB, and college athletes taking a stand.  They are not for our entertainment only.  They have a right to express themselves just like you have the right to put that political bumper sticker on your car.

Honestly, I think many should ask for the perspective of others to see their side before assumptions are made.  A saying I tell many is, "I may not fully understand you, but I love you and support you."

[I_M4_AU 7,858]

7 hours ago, Gowebb11 said:

On a separate but related note, why are cops armed with multiple non-lethal weapons increasingly not able to gain control of suspects, even when they outnumber the suspect 2 or 3 or 4 to 1. Unlike Flowyd, this was not a large guy.  Something needs to be done in their training to correct that. 

One weapon has been removed from their arsenal lately that has worked in the past, but was controversial and that is the choke hold.  The cops, in the Blake case, tased him twice and, either it didn’t work or ineffective, he shrugged them off.  It becomes increasingly hard to control someone resisting without controlling the head.

 

[TigerTale 357]

3 minutes ago, abw0004 said:

Not all cops are bad. Not all non-white citizens are thugs.  The issue I see here is we are beginning to paint every group with the same brush.  Another example that I hate, is that Christians are judgmental and non-accepting.  As a Christian I believe we should love everyone, no matter what.  It is hypocritical to judge someone and then turn around and ask God not to judge us.  Nothing will be accomplished until th name-calling in this country stops and everyone works together.  No more BLM vs. Police, Republicans vs. Democrats, etc.  Working together is what will bring change, everything else is spinning wheels.

Identity politics is poison. We are all individuals and need to see each as such.

[AUDynasty 585]

3 hours ago, Gowebb11 said:

If that’s what the evidence shows it will likely be ruled justifiable. I watched the video and couldn’t clearly discern all of that. Was he being arrested, or questioned? Did the cops identify him and determine he had outstanding warrants? If not for the warrants, why was he being arrested? These are important questions and in my opinion the types of questions the Police should address immediately after an incident. Failure to do so leads to speculation and becomes inflammatory. 
One last point, then I’ll give you the last word. The same PD that shot a guy 7 times for maybe reaching for a knife, rolled right past the clearly armed 17 year old white kid who had just shot someone, and didn’t so much as stop to say hello. Reports are that the kid even stated to the cops that he just shot someone while they were responding to shots fired. Yet he wasn’t arrested until the next day. That kind of double standard is increasingly hard to explain. 

Adding to your point on that 17-year old guy... does anyone remember Dylann Roof, the guy who shot and killed 9 people at a church in South Carolina? When the police apprehended him, they did so peacefully and without violence... AND they had the audacity to get him a hamburger from Burger King... just right after he brutally and coldly killed nine people. 

If you don't see the problem between Rittenhouse (this 17-year old dude) and Roof versus Jacob Blake...you probably are a racist. 

[DAG 33,995]

7 minutes ago, AUDynasty said:

AND they had the audacity to get him a hamburger from Burger King

This is the stuff that angers me. It’s just a complete difference of standard protocol. Same thing with the 17 year old walking right passed the police after protesters said he shot someone with his gun. 

[TigerTale 357]

16 minutes ago, AUDynasty said:

Adding to your point on that 17-year old guy... does anyone remember Dylann Roof, the guy who shot and killed 9 people at a church in South Carolina? When the police apprehended him, they did so peacefully and without violence... AND they had the audacity to get him a hamburger from Burger King... just right after he brutally and coldly killed nine people. 

If you don't see the problem between Rittenhouse (this 17-year old dude) and Roof versus Jacob Blake...you probably are a racist. 

Roof was apprehended peacefully because he surrendered. That's what happens when you follow orders. His punishment has been decided.

Rittenhouse was being chased by a mob and attacked by the mob when he fell while fleeing. Comparing him to a guy who walked into a church and murdered 9 innocent people is blatantly dishonest.

[SocialCircle 570]

31 minutes ago, AUDynasty said:

Adding to your point on that 17-year old guy... does anyone remember Dylann Roof, the guy who shot and killed 9 people at a church in South Carolina? When the police apprehended him, they did so peacefully and without violence... AND they had the audacity to get him a hamburger from Burger King... just right after he brutally and coldly killed nine people. 

If you don't see the problem between Rittenhouse (this 17-year old dude) and Roof versus Jacob Blake...you probably are a racist. 

Didn't Rittenhouse turn himself in to the police?  I'm not saying the police were right in shooting Blake 7 times in the back, but I don't believe that would have been the outcome had he turned himself in as opposed to resisting arrest.  

[DAG 33,995]

43 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

One weapon has been removed from their arsenal lately that has worked in the past, but was controversial and that is the choke hold.  The cops, in the Blake case, tased him twice and, either it didn’t work or ineffective, he shrugged them off.  It becomes increasingly hard to control someone resisting without controlling the head.

 

You don’t need a choke hold to bring someone down , especially when there is multiple people. How about instead of pulling at the guy shirt, the two cops use their strength in numbers and bring the guy down . I have seen it happen multiple times at sporting events with rude fans. I always defer to my father because he has actually been in a cop. One of the things he said bluntly is a lot of these cops are not use to tangling with folks . Many of them have never been in a fight before nor have they experienced aggressive contact , so when someone is defiant to them , their first response is to pull the gun. They are very scary in his words. You have your baton, you have your taser , you have mace and you have strength in numbers. Deadly force is the last option. To be honest with you , the guy should not have even been able to get to his car door. 

[AUDynasty 585]

7 minutes ago, TigerTale said:

Roof was apprehended peacefully because he surrendered. That's what happens when you follow orders. His punishment has been decided.

Rittenhouse was being chased by a mob and attacked by the mob when he fell while fleeing. Comparing him to a guy who walked into a church and murdered 9 innocent people is blatantly dishonest.

Follow orders?

Philando Castile, a Black person shot to the death by police (exact excerpt): "The police dashcam video shows that 40 seconds elapsed between when Yanez first started talking to Castile through the car window and when Yanez began shooting at him. According to the dashcam, after Yanez asked for Castile's driver's license and proof of insurance, Castile gave him his proof of insurance card, which Yanez appeared to glance at and tuck in his outer pocket. Castile then calmly informed Yanez: 'Sir, I have to tell you that I do have a firearm on me.'"

Mr. Castile followed the letter to the law to the T, and his life was still taken. He followed orders and he still got shot.

Why do you think Rittenhouse was being chased by a mob? Oh, yeah--he had shown that he was willing to shoot and kill somebody, and he succeeded in taking two lives.

[DAG 33,995]

9 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

Didn't Rittenhouse turn himself in to the police?  I'm not saying the police were right in shooting Blake 7 times in the back, but I don't believe that would have been the outcome had he turned himself in as opposed to resisting arrest.  

I think what he is saying is if a black man was holding a freaking gun and multiple people were saying he shot someone, the response would’ve been different. The fact that he was able to leave the state after shooting and killing someone on tape and with witnesses mind you, yet still had the ability to turn himself in at his leisure (I am not sure if this was the case) is mind boggling. Yet you are talking about resisting arrest. He should’ve at the very least been apprehended at the site and questioned. Heck, he wasn’t even suppose to have that type of gun and he even crossed state lines with it. 

[I_M4_AU 7,858]

1 hour ago, TigerTale said:

Roof was apprehended peacefully because he surrendered. That's what happens when you follow orders. His punishment has been decided.

Rittenhouse was being chased by a mob and attacked by the mob when he fell while fleeing. Comparing him to a guy who walked into a church and murdered 9 innocent people is blatantly dishonest.

When Rittenhouse shot the first guy, you can see him on his cell phone reportedly calling 911 to tell them he just shot someone.  He was then walking toward the police when he started being chased.  After the 2nd shooting he continued walking toward the police with his hands up to give himself up.  The police went right past him as they were not sure what the situation was.  He eventually was taken into custody.

 

Reuters (@Reuters) Tweeted:
WARNING: GRAPHIC CONTENT - A 17-year-old identified as Kyle Rittenhouse was arrested and charged with homicide, after two people were shot and killed and a third was seriously wounded during protests over the police shooting of Jacob Blake.

[I_M4_AU 7,858]

5 minutes ago, DAG said:

You don’t need a choke hold to bring someone down , especially when there is multiple people. How about instead of pulling at the guy shirt, the two cops use their strength in numbers and bring the guy down . I have seen it happen multiple times at sporting events with rude fans. I always defer to my father because he has actually been in a cop. One of the things he said bluntly is a lot of these cops are not use to tangling with folks . Many of them have never been in a fight before nor have they experienced aggressive contact , so when someone is defiant to them , their first response is to pull the gun. They are very scary in his words. You have your baton, you have your taser , you have mace and you have strength in numbers. Deadly force is the last option. To be honest with you , the guy should not have even been able to get to his car door. 

The choke hold is to control the individual once he/she is on the ground.  I agree with everything else you stated.

[SocialCircle 570]

20 minutes ago, DAG said:

I think what he is saying is if a black man was holding a freaking gun and multiple people were saying he shot someone, the response would’ve been different. The fact that he was able to leave the state after shooting and killing someone on tape and with witnesses mind you, yet still had the ability to turn himself in at his leisure (I am not sure if this was the case) is mind boggling. Yet you are talking about resisting arrest. He should’ve at the very least been apprehended at the site and questioned. Heck, he wasn’t even suppose to have that type of gun and he even crossed state lines with it. 

I am not saying this teen did no wrong.  You avoided answering my question.  Had Blake turned himself in voluntarily like this teenager; would the outcome have been very different?  The answer is yes.  I agree this teenager was in the wrong.  However, the police actually had seen this young man helping clean up glass and cleaning off graffiti in their town earlier. I have no doubt this teen did wrong, but he also acted in self defense after he was violently attacked.  

[DAG 33,995]

6 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

I am not saying this teen did no wrong.  You avoided answering my question.  Had Blake turned himself in voluntarily like this teenager; would the outcome have been very different?  The answer is yes.  I agree this teenager was in the wrong.  The police actually had seen this young man helping clean up glass and cleaning off graffiti in their town earlier. I have no doubt this teen did wrong, but he also acted in self defense after he was violently attacked.  

I am telling you if Blake had a freaking AR, walking around and people said he short someone , he would not have had the opportunity . He would have guns pointed at him and shot if he had the least bit of resistance . He wouldn’t have any type of time to walk up with his hands towards the police. The first command would’ve been drop the weapon and get your ass on the ground. Does that answer your question ? He would be in custody that night or in a body bag.

Also, whether the kid acted in self defense or not, he crossed state lines with a gun that was illegally not suppose to be in his possession. Why the hell is he leaving Antioch and coming to Kenosha , a town he does not live in, to protect businesses who did not hire him to do so? All of that could’ve easily been avoided, if he had done so. You guys throw me off. You want to say Blake shouldn’t have resisted arrest (which I agree with) but then refuse to acknowledge blatant disregard to the law when the shoe is on the under foot.

[AUDynasty 585]

3 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

I am not saying this teen did no wrong.  You avoided answering my question.  Had Blake turned himself in voluntarily like this teenager; would the outcome have been very different?  The answer is yes.  I agree this teenager was in the wrong.  However, the police actually had seen this young man helping clean up glass and cleaning off graffiti in their town earlier. I have no doubt this teen did wrong, but he also acted in self defense after he was violently attacked.  

Then the mob acted in self-defense by running after him after seeing that this guy is actually a threat to people's lives after shooting at people.

[McLoofus 35,182]

5 minutes ago, AUDynasty said:

Then the mob acted in self-defense by running after him after seeing that this guy is actually a threat to people's lives after shooting at people.

Exactly. 

If George Zimmerman acted in self defense (he didn't) then this crowd absolutely acted in self defense (they did).

I'd be way more frightened of some dumb ass white kid walking down the street with a gun than just about any other person.