Americans love torture

[alexava 6,973]

As long as we insist on maintaining the "high moral ground" we will never win the war on terrorism!!!!

We're in a conflict in which we absolutely insist on playing by the rules against a maniacal group who have NO rules. It is not your Fathers war. Don't send our men and women off to fight with their hands tied. JMHO.

There is absolutely nothing so unique about terrorists that it requires we throw all morality and decency that separates us from the savages out the window.

yes actually there is. they are plotting attacks with people who live and walk among us without military ties or uniforms. using our own freedoms and liberties to terrorize us, that is fairly unique.

Not really. If you take a "black perspective" that pretty much describes the KKK, in the time. Actually, in my time.

And pretty much every serial killer that ever lived.

None of this is worth trading our humanity, morality and decency. Thinking we should just means you want to be more like them in a way.

If you trade your morality and decency then they have already won. The Nazis were as big if not bigger monsters, capable of as much evil as anyone ever on the face of the earth. They gunned down whole villages, forced labor camps, murdered at will, etc. These terrorists are certainly no worse than that. If we give away our humanity than we are no better than they are. Those of us who joined up and "rucked up" as AUUSN says know it like it is in our blood/dna. I do not have to like what you say to be able to defend your right to say it.

I don't deny they are winning. I want to prevent them from their goal of wiping us out. I will not ask the intelligence agencies to handcuff themselves in the name of morality and human decency for an enemy that plays by a different set of rules. i am much more troubled with the loss in innocent lives(children)by the bullets and bombs of our military in war torn countries than i am the humane treatment of the a**holes that caused it. I have a ton of morality, humanity, decency, it's just for peaceful people, even large populations of people who hate us but cause no harm. It's the handful who are actually trying to kill us that have forfeited their right to humane treatment.

"Wipe us out"? :-\

This is not a traditional existential struggle. They can't "wipe us out". But they can effectively wipe out our values and transform us into something that is much more like themselves.

Apparently, they have made a lot of progress with you. (Assuming you didn't hold these views prior to Al Queda, et al.)

prior to 9/11 i never considered them to have the ability or intelligence to hit us at home that hard. they do want to wipe us out. they are doing whatever they can without rules of humanity to impede them. like others have mentioned i am more bothered by airstrikes and drone missions that we sometimes KNOW there will be innocent lives taken to eliminate certain threats. if these "humans" are worth killing innocent children to take them out then when they are captured i support anything that might possibly make them cooperate. i dont know how effective torture is but if it works 5% of the time i'll sign off on it.

Most people - and historically speaking - there has been a judicial and moral distinction between trying to kill the enemy while at large and how you treat him after capture.

Tell, me would you be OK with skinning them alive or slowly burning them (for example)?

i am for whatever gets them to talk. If skinning them or burning them works then do it but i need not know about it. remember i would only consider torture for people that are absolutely known terrorists, not suspected. i dont think that would happen anyway.

Man, you are really starting to freak me out now.

actually you dont need to know about it either. you just need to continue to enjoy the freedom and security you have and pretend there are no plots to destroy this country. that detainees will tell you all they know as long as they have a comfortable bed heat, air conditioning and three meals a day. I am on the side of the good guys. The people questioning the POWs or terrorists know much more than you or i ever will about extracting information. I dont see how we can expect peace and security and demand how it is achieved with the type of enemy we face today.i feel the same way about meta-data collection. i dont want to know what they are doing but i want to know they are doing all they can.

[alexava 6,973]

As long as we insist on maintaining the "high moral ground" we will never win the war on terrorism!!!!

We're in a conflict in which we absolutely insist on playing by the rules against a maniacal group who have NO rules. It is not your Fathers war. Don't send our men and women off to fight with their hands tied. JMHO.

There is absolutely nothing so unique about terrorists that it requires we throw all morality and decency that separates us from the savages out the window.

yes actually there is. they are plotting attacks with people who live and walk among us without military ties or uniforms. using our own freedoms and liberties to terrorize us, that is fairly unique.

Not really. If you take a "black perspective" that pretty much describes the KKK, in the time. Actually, in my time.

And pretty much every serial killer that ever lived.

None of this is worth trading our humanity, morality and decency. Thinking we should just means you want to be more like them in a way.

If you trade your morality and decency then they have already won. The Nazis were as big if not bigger monsters, capable of as much evil as anyone ever on the face of the earth. They gunned down whole villages, forced labor camps, murdered at will, etc. These terrorists are certainly no worse than that. If we give away our humanity than we are no better than they are. Those of us who joined up and "rucked up" as AUUSN says know it like it is in our blood/dna. I do not have to like what you say to be able to defend your right to say it.

I don't deny they are winning. I want to prevent them from their goal of wiping us out. I will not ask the intelligence agencies to handcuff themselves in the name of morality and human decency for an enemy that plays by a different set of rules. i am much more troubled with the loss in innocent lives(children)by the bullets and bombs of our military in war torn countries than i am the humane treatment of the a**holes that caused it. I have a ton of morality, humanity, decency, it's just for peaceful people, even large populations of people who hate us but cause no harm. It's the handful who are actually trying to kill us that have forfeited their right to humane treatment.

"Wipe us out"? :-\

This is not a traditional existential struggle. They can't "wipe us out". But they can effectively wipe out our values and transform us into something that is much more like themselves.

Apparently, they have made a lot of progress with you. (Assuming you didn't hold these views prior to Al Queda, et al.)

prior to 9/11 i never considered them to have the ability or intelligence to hit us at home that hard. they do want to wipe us out. they are doing whatever they can without rules of humanity to impede them. like others have mentioned i am more bothered by airstrikes and drone missions that we sometimes KNOW there will be innocent lives taken to eliminate certain threats. if these "humans" are worth killing innocent children to take them out then when they are captured i support anything that might possibly make them cooperate. i dont know how effective torture is but if it works 5% of the time i'll sign off on it.

Most people - and historically speaking - there has been a judicial and moral distinction between trying to kill the enemy while at large and how you treat him after capture.

Tell, me would you be OK with skinning them alive or slowly burning them (for example)?

i am for whatever gets them to talk. If skinning them or burning them works then do it but i need not know about it. remember i would only consider torture for people that are absolutely known terrorists, not suspected. i dont think that would happen anyway.

Man, you are really starting to freak me out now.

I don't know about skinning them alive...lol but I think terrorists should be extra motivated to talk quickly

like i said if they did i would not want to know. It is a job that has to be done and i will bow out and let them do it. skinning alive is a bit extreme, though. Homer thought that up.

[autigeremt 6,601]

I dont know much, but i know i didnt join the military signing up to support torture. We fought Nazis and Tojo and never signed off on torture. If we can defeat them without it, we an defeat anyone without it.

Tojo and Hitler continued to fight a conventional war until the closing months (Kamakazi attacks to name one) and while I don't "support" torture like that of the Japs, Germans, Italians, or NVC, I do see how we might have been treading the edges of it to gain information about those willing to ram fully loaded passenger planes into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and Washington D.C.

I wish the terrorists fought on a conventional footing.....but they don't. Beheadings, stoning, whatever they can do to create chaos and death.....it's an enemy we haven't faced. Moving forward I hope we can tread "lightly" and move on a moral footing....but I can see how it happened. I can also see people of many persuasions trying something similar to protect a nation.

[TexasTiger 12,835]

I dont know much, but i know i didnt join the military signing up to support torture. We fought Nazis and Tojo and never signed off on torture. If we can defeat them without it, we an defeat anyone without it.

Tojo and Hitler continued to fight a conventional war until the closing months (Kamakazi attacks to name one) and while I don't "support" torture like that of the Japs, Germans, Italians, or NVC, I do see how we might have been treading the edges of it to gain information about those willing to ram fully loaded passenger planes into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and Washington D.C.

I wish the terrorists fought on a conventional footing.....but they don't. Beheadings, stoning, whatever they can do to create chaos and death.....it's an enemy we haven't faced. Moving forward I hope we can tread "lightly" and move on a moral footing....but I can see how it happened. I can also see people of many persuasions trying something similar to protect a nation.

So what should we do differently?

[DKW 86 7,419]

I dont know much, but i know i didnt join the military signing up to support torture. We fought Nazis and Tojo and never signed off on torture. If we can defeat them without it, we an defeat anyone without it.

Tojo and Hitler continued to fight a conventional war until the closing months (Kamakazi attacks to name one) and while I don't "support" torture like that of the Japs, Germans, Italians, or NVC, I do see how we might have been treading the edges of it to gain information about those willing to ram fully loaded passenger planes into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and Washington D.C.

I wish the terrorists fought on a conventional footing.....but they don't. Beheadings, stoning, whatever they can do to create chaos and death.....it's an enemy we haven't faced. Moving forward I hope we can tread "lightly" and move on a moral footing....but I can see how it happened. I can also see people of many persuasions trying something similar to protect a nation.

emt, these folks are constantly going back to the crusades for motivation to fight us. They are looking at a 50 year war. That is a good thing imho, The more time we have to plan, win, etc. Look, the Nazis killed somewhere near 6M Jews, and possibly 5-20M Russians depending on who you read. The Japanese killed millions of Chinese as well. The terrorists arent even in the same hemisphere as those guys. I think the way we win this thing with the Islaimists is this, we quit giving them things to recruit with. Want to win? Take that 50 year window they talk about and bomb them with culture and freedom. Look, the Americans and Euros joining ISIS are already tiring. They are there for the glory of the kill, not scrub toilets for Allah. They want nothing to do with day to day repression. IS doesnt offer anything but repression. Get the muslim kids to see the ways of freedom and openness. bomb them with culture and freedom and watch as they drift away from islam radicalism.

IF, and i mean IF, IS is stupid enough to build a real army and fight a conventional war, brother, we are gonna win that thing a few weeks at most. We will kick their asses overnight. Theyb have tom stay right where they are, small timers not worthy of our army. Let the middle eastern powers fight them. Once the muslims see that IS is failing to live upto their nirvana standards, guess what? They will fall away from it like all humans do. Repression takes a highly skilled, time consuming, and constant presence to maintain. Those they oppress will soon start their own rebellion. The only thing constant in the middle east is that they are gonna keep killing each other. We keep them fighting amongst themselves until they tire of fighting.

[AURaptor 1,122]

I dont know much, but i know i didnt join the military signing up to support torture. We fought Nazis and Tojo and never signed off on torture. If we can defeat them without it, we an defeat anyone without it.

These aren't uniformed soldiers fighting for any country or recognized govt. There is no negotiation or truce to be had here. That's the difference.

[DKW 86 7,419]

I dont know much, but i know i didnt join the military signing up to support torture. We fought Nazis and Tojo and never signed off on torture. If we can defeat them without it, we an defeat anyone without it.

These aren't uniformed soldiers fighting for any country or recognized govt. There is no negotiation or truce to be had here. That's the difference.

We have successfully engaged these types of enemies before. 1900s-Phillipines Insurrection. 1800s-the Barbary Coast Wars. We fought both without betraying our national identity.

[homersapien 11,367]

I dont know much, but i know i didnt join the military signing up to support torture. We fought Nazis and Tojo and never signed off on torture. If we can defeat them without it, we an defeat anyone without it.

These aren't uniformed soldiers fighting for any country or recognized govt. There is no negotiation or truce to be had here. That's the difference.

We have successfully engaged these types of enemies before. 1900s-Phillipines Insurrection. 1800s-the Barbary Coast Wars. We fought both without betraying our national identity.

I am afraid that is a very, very bad example.

[alexava 6,973]

I dont know much, but i know i didnt join the military signing up to support torture. We fought Nazis and Tojo and never signed off on torture. If we can defeat them without it, we an defeat anyone without it.

These aren't uniformed soldiers fighting for any country or recognized govt. There is no negotiation or truce to be had here. That's the difference.

We have successfully engaged these types of enemies before. 1900s-Phillipines Insurrection. 1800s-the Barbary Coast Wars. We fought both without betraying our national identity.

or we probably just didn't need to betray said identity.

[DKW 86 7,419]

I dont know much, but i know i didnt join the military signing up to support torture. We fought Nazis and Tojo and never signed off on torture. If we can defeat them without it, we an defeat anyone without it.

These aren't uniformed soldiers fighting for any country or recognized govt. There is no negotiation or truce to be had here. That's the difference.

We have successfully engaged these types of enemies before. 1900s-Phillipines Insurrection. 1800s-the Barbary Coast Wars. We fought both without betraying our national identity.

:blink:/> I am afraid that is a very, very bad example.

So you got a link where we tortured people? Or are you just requoting urban legend?

[homersapien 11,367]

I dont know much, but i know i didnt join the military signing up to support torture. We fought Nazis and Tojo and never signed off on torture. If we can defeat them without it, we an defeat anyone without it.

These aren't uniformed soldiers fighting for any country or recognized govt. There is no negotiation or truce to be had here. That's the difference.

We have successfully engaged these types of enemies before. 1900s-Phillipines Insurrection. 1800s-the Barbary Coast Wars. We fought both without betraying our national identity.

:blink:/> I am afraid that is a very, very bad example.

So you got a link where we tortured people? Or are you just requoting urban legend?

Seriously? "Urban legend".

I'll take this to a PM as the actual history supports Alexava's case.

[WarTim 3,456]

The Crats are very much pro torture. They elected barry. That is the most torturous act inflicted upon the American people in history.

[autigeremt 6,601]

I dont know much, but i know i didnt join the military signing up to support torture. We fought Nazis and Tojo and never signed off on torture. If we can defeat them without it, we an defeat anyone without it.

Tojo and Hitler continued to fight a conventional war until the closing months (Kamakazi attacks to name one) and while I don't "support" torture like that of the Japs, Germans, Italians, or NVC, I do see how we might have been treading the edges of it to gain information about those willing to ram fully loaded passenger planes into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and Washington D.C.

I wish the terrorists fought on a conventional footing.....but they don't. Beheadings, stoning, whatever they can do to create chaos and death.....it's an enemy we haven't faced. Moving forward I hope we can tread "lightly" and move on a moral footing....but I can see how it happened. I can also see people of many persuasions trying something similar to protect a nation.

So what should we do differently?

Start fighting the war like it's WWII and not like it's selective targeting (Vietnam comes to mind).

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

Did we torture people in WW2 or Viet Nam? It depends on how you define torture. To me, spraying napalm in caves and seeing burning bodies running out on fire and screaming as their flesh burns away is torture. But it the hell of war. War is no place for the faint of heart or hose worrying about the high moral ground. How many of you have seen the horrows of war up close on the front lines or in a POW camp?

[AUUSN 823]

Did we torture people in WW2 or Viet Nam? It depends on how you define torture. To me, spraying napalm in caves and seeing burning bodies running out on fire and screaming as their flesh burns away is torture. But it the hell of war. War is no place for the faint of heart or hose worrying about the high moral ground. How many of you have seen the horrows of war up close on the front lines or in a POW camp?

[TitanTiger 20,472]

Did we torture people in WW2 or Viet Nam? It depends on how you define torture. To me, spraying napalm in caves and seeing burning bodies running out on fire and screaming as their flesh burns away is torture. But it the hell of war. War is no place for the faint of heart or hose worrying about the high moral ground. How many of you have seen the horrows of war up close on the front lines or in a POW camp?

John McCain has. He's been tortured. He says what we've done is torture.