I'm confused, but sw and jj are the same

[OnthePlains 2,014]

So...2009 and anything outside the SEC don't count...when you can cherry pick facts and disregard anything that doesn't prove your point then the discussion is pointless. So, then we have you're entire argument based off of 1 year, 2012...and this year which isn't done. No sense in discussing anymore. How about one year with NM and an 8-5 season? Let me guess, all on the defense? Even the Georgia game?

First of all, kind of hard to comprehend what you were refuting, but I digress. Anyways, yes, I know how successful his years at Tulsa were, but what does that mean in the SEC? He was playing against defenses with nowhere near the talent and complicated schemes as in the SEC, and his personnel were probably the same as the defenses he was playing against, so a wash. But then you add in the fact the advantages an offense like his has over an average to below average defense, then yes, he can be successful, especially with a QB who is not a threat to run. However, you can't deny the impact and world of difference it is to have a dual threat QB like Cam and NM has. And let's talk about last year with NM by the way. I would say against Miss. State and UGA were the only games where our offense plainly stunk it up and lost us the game, but the other games, where we scored at least 30 points, I will blame it on the defense. By the way, it seems like you discount what NM did his first year, you know, winning the SEC and stuff, but whatever. All I'm saying is, look at the difference between the offenses, one with a dual threat, and the other, where SW and JJ are, and where the Tulsa QBs, Chris Todd, Barrett Trotter and Clint Mosely aare placed, and tell me which one has been more successful, i.e., winning championships? I'll hang up and listen...

I haven't discounted anything NM has done ever. You're argument for discounting 2009 also applies to 2013 does it not? The 2013 offense is not even close to what it was in 2010 or ever before in GMs career. Nobody saw that year coming scheme wise. Gus adapted to his personnel. JJ was expected to be similar this year with better passing and crumbled. SW has played 1 game EVER and looks to be a dual threat. Maybe not in the traditional sense, but he is definitely a good enough runner to keep the D honest. Give him time before you condemn his entire career. You said it yourself, the offense caused two losses last year WITH NM. And Cam is the best college qb possibly ever. Not gonna find another probably ever. The sample size is too small to be making absolute statements. What say you if we win out from here and end up with a better offense than last year with NM? Probably be some outside reason that makes it not count. I'll hang up and listen.

EDIT: nobody had ever seen the offense we displayed in the 2010 year either. Guess we should discount that one too since no one had time to prepare for Cam. So by your own logic, 2009, 2010 and 2013 shouldn't count. Guess we'll dissect 2011 and 2014....

Haha, this is fun. You still haven't answered any of my questions. What do you mean no one had ever seen an offense like we had in 2010? Does Tebow ring a bell? Also, you and many others have completely missed my point. My whole argument has been that a dual threat QB is needed to win championships with this style of offense. I don't get attached to players and coaches like you guys do apparently. I understand SW might be our option right now, all I'm saying is why not give a series or two to Jason Smith? Again, provide facts and stats that a dual threat QB in this offense is worse than non-dual threat QBs on Gus' offense, and also ho many championships they've won? Look, we're going around in circles. I see and observe that dual threat QBs would make this offense better, while you and others feel as though a player like SW is good enough. Agree to disagree.

Doesn't nearly any offense perform better with a dual threat qb? Even with Cam we nearly lost about 4 or 5 games and had games where the offense under performed. With NM we had games where the offense struggled. The common denominator in 2010 and 2013 was a strong o line and opportunistic defense. If our o line could get their act together and our d could play better it wouldn't matter if it was a dual threat qb or not. I tend to think if Gus thought Jason Smith could contribute as a qb we would see him out there doing it.

Yea, when you have a QB who is a playmaker at QB, you're always in the game with a chance to win it, that's been my whole argument! I'll agree, our offense as a whole hasn't played well at all for either QBs to do well. Our D played well enough to win by the way last night. You still think we win championships with a Chris Todd or SW or whatever non-dual threat QB in those years? I understand that helped Cam and NM out a lot, but if you're telling me we would have been that successful without them, well, I'm utterly speechless...

What I'm saying is you can't just dismiss the idea that we could win a title with the RIGHT non dual threat qb. Chris Todd would not have won no. Sean White it remains to be seen as we have only one game sample size to go off of. If Jason Smith is a NM clone and Gus isn't using him then that's on Gus but I can only assume since I don't presume to know more than the head coach who sees every practice that Jason is not a NM clone.

[sevenlee36 1,654]

I would like to have another Cam Newton walk through the door ! Heck ya, but you don't get that type player every year or decade.. I'd like to have a 4.4 cornerback that can throw the ball 70 yards but I don't see one of those either. Two very rare players helped get us to the national title game. I don't think Trotter, Mosley, Burns, Frazier, Todd, etc had that rare type talent. I do think Cam and Nicks talents were different, but if given an opportunity might Sean's talent, drive, and leadership be another rare mix we need? It's possible and hope so, but either way having the other 21 offense and defensive players step up would really help out!!

[T cell 5]

I am detail obsessed. Just a note on the aforementioned crisp handoffs. While a different offensive approach, Marshall + Tre fooled countless camera operators. JJ seemed to fully extend his arms perpendicular and hold the ball like a crusty French baguette and let the back run to the handoff. SW seems more adept at energetic handoffs and selling fakes.

[FoundationEagle 637]

So...2009 and anything outside the SEC don't count...when you can cherry pick facts and disregard anything that doesn't prove your point then the discussion is pointless. So, then we have you're entire argument based off of 1 year, 2012...and this year which isn't done. No sense in discussing anymore. How about one year with NM and an 8-5 season? Let me guess, all on the defense? Even the Georgia game?

First of all, kind of hard to comprehend what you were refuting, but I digress. Anyways, yes, I know how successful his years at Tulsa were, but what does that mean in the SEC? He was playing against defenses with nowhere near the talent and complicated schemes as in the SEC, and his personnel were probably the same as the defenses he was playing against, so a wash. But then you add in the fact the advantages an offense like his has over an average to below average defense, then yes, he can be successful, especially with a QB who is not a threat to run. However, you can't deny the impact and world of difference it is to have a dual threat QB like Cam and NM has. And let's talk about last year with NM by the way. I would say against Miss. State and UGA were the only games where our offense plainly stunk it up and lost us the game, but the other games, where we scored at least 30 points, I will blame it on the defense. By the way, it seems like you discount what NM did his first year, you know, winning the SEC and stuff, but whatever. All I'm saying is, look at the difference between the offenses, one with a dual threat, and the other, where SW and JJ are, and where the Tulsa QBs, Chris Todd, Barrett Trotter and Clint Mosely aare placed, and tell me which one has been more successful, i.e., winning championships? I'll hang up and listen...

I haven't discounted anything NM has done ever. You're argument for discounting 2009 also applies to 2013 does it not? The 2013 offense is not even close to what it was in 2010 or ever before in GMs career. Nobody saw that year coming scheme wise. Gus adapted to his personnel. JJ was expected to be similar this year with better passing and crumbled. SW has played 1 game EVER and looks to be a dual threat. Maybe not in the traditional sense, but he is definitely a good enough runner to keep the D honest. Give him time before you condemn his entire career. You said it yourself, the offense caused two losses last year WITH NM. And Cam is the best college qb possibly ever. Not gonna find another probably ever. The sample size is too small to be making absolute statements. What say you if we win out from here and end up with a better offense than last year with NM? Probably be some outside reason that makes it not count. I'll hang up and listen.

EDIT: nobody had ever seen the offense we displayed in the 2010 year either. Guess we should discount that one too since no one had time to prepare for Cam. So by your own logic, 2009, 2010 and 2013 shouldn't count. Guess we'll dissect 2011 and 2014....

Haha, this is fun. You still haven't answered any of my questions. What do you mean no one had ever seen an offense like we had in 2010? Does Tebow ring a bell? Also, you and many others have completely missed my point. My whole argument has been that a dual threat QB is needed to win championships with this style of offense. I don't get attached to players and coaches like you guys do apparently. I understand SW might be our option right now, all I'm saying is why not give a series or two to Jason Smith? Again, provide facts and stats that a dual threat QB in this offense is worse than non-dual threat QBs on Gus' offense, and also ho many championships they've won? Look, we're going around in circles. I see and observe that dual threat QBs would make this offense better, while you and others feel as though a player like SW is good enough. Agree to disagree.

Doesn't nearly any offense perform better with a dual threat qb? Even with Cam we nearly lost about 4 or 5 games and had games where the offense under performed. With NM we had games where the offense struggled. The common denominator in 2010 and 2013 was a strong o line and opportunistic defense. If our o line could get their act together and our d could play better it wouldn't matter if it was a dual threat qb or not. I tend to think if Gus thought Jason Smith could contribute as a qb we would see him out there doing it.

Yea, when you have a QB who is a playmaker at QB, you're always in the game with a chance to win it, that's been my whole argument! I'll agree, our offense as a whole hasn't played well at all for either QBs to do well. Our D played well enough to win by the way last night. You still think we win championships with a Chris Todd or SW or whatever non-dual threat QB in those years? I understand that helped Cam and NM out a lot, but if you're telling me we would have been that successful without them, well, I'm utterly speechless...

I will say that the right DT QB can be a big asset, not just for this O but for any. Of course, very few DT QBs win the Super Bowl, so there is no absolutes...which is my point all along. I hope SW proves me right this or next year...or that JJ does. As long as somebody plays great I don't care if it's a Pocket or a DT. We should revisit this discussion in about 6 weeks I believe

[OnthePlains 2,014]

It's all a big ploy by Gus. He is saving Jason Smith for the Iron Bowl at which point he will come in and run nothing but zone read and pop passes with linemen downfield just to drive lil nicky bonkers.

[alexava 6,973]

I am detail obsessed. Just a note on the aforementioned crisp handoffs. While a different offensive approach, Marshall + Tre fooled countless camera operators. JJ seemed to fully extend his arms perpendicular and hold the ball like a crusty French baguette and let the back run to the handoff. SW seems more adept at energetic handoffs and selling fakes.

nice wording!

[cole256 17,084]

this is headache inducing.

Most of the threads since Saturday are headache inducing. Agreed.

It would be ok if there were more than 8 people on this board you could actually talk to without it getting combative

Dare to name them??????????????????

Britt, Clayton, scy, loof, mims, ichy chimes...And some cool people that come every now and again.

[FoundationEagle 637]

this is headache inducing.

Most of the threads since Saturday are headache inducing. Agreed.

It would be ok if there were more than 8 people on this board you could actually talk to without it getting combative

Dare to name them??????????????????

Britt, Clayton, scy, loof, mims, ichy chimes...And some cool people that come every now and again.

Lol. Didn't even name Golf. I guess that's what he gets for asking haha.

[AU64 10,122]

I am detail obsessed. Just a note on the aforementioned crisp handoffs. While a different offensive approach, Marshall + Tre fooled countless camera operators. JJ seemed to fully extend his arms perpendicular and hold the ball like a crusty French baguette and let the back run to the handoff. SW seems more adept at energetic handoffs and selling fakes.

nice wording!

agree with that observation...my biggest criticism of JJ ...other than the INTs is that he does not help his ball carrier at all....no attempt at deception and defensive players easily see who has the ball. As noted above, NM and Cam too could fool the camera and help get the running plays off to a good start. SW seems to have that same ability.

[TexasTiger 12,933]

I am detail obsessed. Just a note on the aforementioned crisp handoffs. While a different offensive approach, Marshall + Tre fooled countless camera operators. JJ seemed to fully extend his arms perpendicular and hold the ball like a crusty French baguette and let the back run to the handoff. SW seems more adept at energetic handoffs and selling fakes.

nice wording!

agree with that observation...my biggest criticism of JJ ...other than the INTs is that he does not help his ball carrier at all....no attempt at deception and defensive players easily see who has the ball. As noted above, NM and Cam too could fool the camera and help get the running plays off to a good start. SW seems to have that same ability.

This was another reason the run game struggled in JJ's start against Arky last year.

[FoundationEagle 637]

I am detail obsessed. Just a note on the aforementioned crisp handoffs. While a different offensive approach, Marshall + Tre fooled countless camera operators. JJ seemed to fully extend his arms perpendicular and hold the ball like a crusty French baguette and let the back run to the handoff. SW seems more adept at energetic handoffs and selling fakes.

nice wording!

agree with that observation...my biggest criticism of JJ ...other than the INTs is that he does not help his ball carrier at all....no attempt at deception and defensive players easily see who has the ball. As noted above, NM and Cam too could fool the camera and help get the running plays off to a good start. SW seems to have that same ability.

Good asessments. I'll have to go back and watch because I missed that detail. That could explain why the running game took off as well. Just getting a LB to slow down for a split second makes a world of difference.

[chimesAU 89]

this is headache inducing.

Most of the threads since Saturday are headache inducing. Agreed.

It would be ok if there were more than 8 people on this board you could actually talk to without it getting combative

Dare to name them??????????????????

Britt, Clayton, scy, loof, mims, ichy chimes...And some cool people that come every now and again.

Cool Kids Club ftw

[Guest WarEagleSteve]

From what I saw, Sean White was decisive, crisp with his passes, and (mostly) took care of the football; In other words, he was a great many things that Jeremy hasn't been this year. Now, with that said, I'd like everyone to take a second and repeat after me: HE PLAYED ONE GAME. ONE GAME IS NOT, I REPEAT, NOT ENOUGH TO MAKE A DETERMINATION ON HOW GOOD SOMEONE IS!!! Sorry for the all caps but come on! We were ready to anoint Jeremy the second coming of Cam Newton after ONE HALF against Arky and look how that turned out. SW could be really good, he could turn out really bad, he could even be somewhere in between but we won't know until he's played AT LEAST another game or two.

[OnthePlains 2,014]

From what I saw, Sean White was decisive, crisp with his passes, and (mostly) took care of the football; In other words, he was a great many things that Jeremy hasn't been this year. Now, with that said, I'd like everyone to take a second and repeat after me: HE PLAYED ONE GAME. ONE GAME IS NOT, I REPEAT, NOT ENOUGH TO MAKE A DETERMINATION ON HOW GOOD SOMEONE IS!!! Sorry for the all caps but come on! We were ready to anoint Jeremy the second coming of Cam Newton after ONE HALF against Arky and look how that turned out. SW could be really good, he could turn out really bad, he could even be somewhere in between but we won't know until he's played AT LEAST another game or two.

Our opinions don't count here man, we were not in cole's cool list.

[cole256 17,084]

That's not me saying those are the only posters those are the people I've interacted with and had a direct disagreement with and nobody became upset. You are elite if you're on my list though....you're on your way to becoming a mod. RIR let's me choose....true story

[McLoofus 35,182]

That's not me saying those are the only posters those are the people I've interacted with and had a direct disagreement with and nobody became upset. You are elite if you're on my list though....you're on your way to becoming a mod. RIR let's me choose....true story

Is this a mafia thing? It's totally a mafia thing, isn't it? Well, I'm ready. Goodfellas is my favorite movie.

[chimesAU 89]

That's not me saying those are the only posters those are the people I've interacted with and had a direct disagreement with and nobody became upset. You are elite if you're on my list though....you're on your way to becoming a mod. RIR let's me choose....true story

Is this a mafia thing? It's totally a mafia thing, isn't it? Well, I'm ready. Goodfellas is my favorite movie.

The site is called AUFamily. If that's not mafia related then I don't know what is.

[AU64 10,122]

That's not me saying those are the only posters those are the people I've interacted with and had a direct disagreement with and nobody became upset. You are elite if you're on my list though....you're on your way to becoming a mod. RIR let's me choose....true story

Is this a mafia thing? It's totally a mafia thing, isn't it? Well, I'm ready. Goodfellas is my favorite movie.

The site is called AUFamily. If that's not mafia related then I don't know what is.

We haven't resorted to knee-capping our opposition on here yet have we? ...other than just verbally perhaps.

[collector527 0]

I have to disagree with this topic. White and Johnson were very different. Sean looked better all round in his first game than JJ has at any point this year. Yes Sean made a mistake, and a costly one but he was perfect before that and looked decent after. He checked the ball down when he needed to. He did miss seeing a few open WRs. Outside of the few mistakes we had in the red zone the offense looked better. I will say that his win/loss record probably will not look any better because this offense is not set up for these QBs. I honestly thought Gus., being the genius he is, would run less zone reads with these QBs. No matter who is the QB, it will not matter if they don't run the ball. In all 4 games it seems most of our success came on a drive where the QB ran some or the drive following. I hate running QBs but you cant run this type of offense without it.

[sevenlee36 1,654]

I wish ESPN had shown more of the downfield, so we could see what SW was seeing. I'd like to see how many receivers and missed plays we had. The video was to closely focused at the line of scrimmage.

[AUbooger 0]

I wish ESPN had shown more of the downfield, so we could see what SW was seeing. I'd like to see how many receivers and missed plays we had. The video was to closely focused at the line of scrimmage.

Totally agree, how is that camera crew still employed?

[McLoofus 35,182]

I wish ESPN had shown more of the downfield, so we could see what SW was seeing. I'd like to see how many receivers and missed plays we had. The video was to closely focused at the line of scrimmage.

That's been tough for me, also. Hard to tell. I'll say this on Jeremy's behalf: seems like Sean is not seeing much more daylight downfield than Jeremy did. The difference *in my not-terribly-smart opinion* is that Sean handled that better than Jeremy did.

[McLoofus 35,182]

That's not me saying those are the only posters those are the people I've interacted with and had a direct disagreement with and nobody became upset. You are elite if you're on my list though....you're on your way to becoming a mod. RIR let's me choose....true story

Is this a mafia thing? It's totally a mafia thing, isn't it? Well, I'm ready. Goodfellas is my favorite movie.

The site is called AUFamily. If that's not mafia related then I don't know what is.

We haven't resorted to knee-capping our opposition on here yet have we? ...other than just verbally perhaps.

Well, that certainly explains a lot. Have we reached out to Tonya Harding for an administrative position?

[PigskinPat 2,579]

I am detail obsessed. Just a note on the aforementioned crisp handoffs. While a different offensive approach, Marshall + Tre fooled countless camera operators. JJ seemed to fully extend his arms perpendicular and hold the ball like a crusty French baguette and let the back run to the handoff. SW seems more adept at energetic handoffs and selling fakes.

This is what I've been saying is one of the glaring differences in the play of JJ vs SW. JJ is so rigid and mechanical in the run plays that he fools absolutely no one and the defense went full throttle to the ball carrier. SW is so much more fluid and creates that second of unknown that makes the defense think and helps our offense to go.

[cole256 17,084]

I have to disagree with this topic. White and Johnson were very different. Sean looked better all round in his first game than JJ has at any point this year. Yes Sean made a mistake, and a costly one but he was perfect before that and looked decent after. He checked the ball down when he needed to. He did miss seeing a few open WRs. Outside of the few mistakes we had in the red zone the offense looked better. I will say that his win/loss record probably will not look any better because this offense is not set up for these QBs. I honestly thought Gus., being the genius he is, would run less zone reads with these QBs. No matter who is the QB, it will not matter if they don't run the ball. In all 4 games it seems most of our success came on a drive where the QB ran some or the drive following. I hate running QBs but you cant run this type of offense without it.

They both (jj more) made throws into triple coverage. They both made mostly sideline throws. I really wish we had video as well because I see everybody wants to say he read all these progressions but he didn't. Over half of his passes were short quick designed to get the ball out of his hand quickly.

We ran the ball better and made it a point to stick to the run this particular game. Seeming to learn a lesson from the LSU game. But whenever the play was 3rd and 6 or more we weren't more successful with white, it was the same results. The same problems plagued us,....drops, penalties, blocking. Now I don't understand why a majority on this board didn't have anything to say about these problems until after white played.

To me they played the same game, can be decent if they are placed in reasonable situations. But this is football and stuff happens....neither one has been that good in those situations. This particular game we ran the ball better and we didn't fumble any so it worked out for white a little better imo. He's younger, ran better, because of age has more upside so I think he should play, but I didn't see anything he did that was so much better that everybody has to literally trash jj to even question his manhood, (scared to get hit etc) and white played a different game for him to be a warrior and hero....there was not a big enough gap in production or quality of play to have that big of differences in opinion.

The only thing I saw that I haven't seen jj do before is the running. The way our o line pass block white should start on that alone. But if any of you think white throws that td jj threw on third down that jax st game you're kidding yourself.

But we'll see what white does after the Kentucky game.