I'm confused, but sw and jj are the same

[FoundationEagle 637]

So...2009 and anything outside the SEC don't count...when you can cherry pick facts and disregard anything that doesn't prove your point then the discussion is pointless. So, then we have you're entire argument based off of 1 year, 2012...and this year which isn't done. No sense in discussing anymore. How about one year with NM and an 8-5 season? Let me guess, all on the defense? Even the Georgia game?

First of all, kind of hard to comprehend what you were refuting, but I digress. Anyways, yes, I know how successful his years at Tulsa were, but what does that mean in the SEC? He was playing against defenses with nowhere near the talent and complicated schemes as in the SEC, and his personnel were probably the same as the defenses he was playing against, so a wash. But then you add in the fact the advantages an offense like his has over an average to below average defense, then yes, he can be successful, especially with a QB who is not a threat to run. However, you can't deny the impact and world of difference it is to have a dual threat QB like Cam and NM has. And let's talk about last year with NM by the way. I would say against Miss. State and UGA were the only games where our offense plainly stunk it up and lost us the game, but the other games, where we scored at least 30 points, I will blame it on the defense. By the way, it seems like you discount what NM did his first year, you know, winning the SEC and stuff, but whatever. All I'm saying is, look at the difference between the offenses, one with a dual threat, and the other, where SW and JJ are, and where the Tulsa QBs, Chris Todd, Barrett Trotter and Clint Mosely aare placed, and tell me which one has been more successful, i.e., winning championships? I'll hang up and listen...

I haven't discounted anything NM has done ever. You're argument for discounting 2009 also applies to 2013 does it not? The 2013 offense is not even close to what it was in 2010 or ever before in GMs career. Nobody saw that year coming scheme wise. Gus adapted to his personnel. JJ was expected to be similar this year with better passing and crumbled. SW has played 1 game EVER and looks to be a dual threat. Maybe not in the traditional sense, but he is definitely a good enough runner to keep the D honest. Give him time before you condemn his entire career. You said it yourself, the offense caused two losses last year WITH NM. And Cam is the best college qb possibly ever. Not gonna find another probably ever. The sample size is too small to be making absolute statements. What say you if we win out from here and end up with a better offense than last year with NM? Probably be some outside reason that makes it not count. I'll hang up and listen.

EDIT: nobody had ever seen the offense we displayed in the 2010 year either. Guess we should discount that one too since no one had time to prepare for Cam. So by your own logic, 2009, 2010 and 2013 shouldn't count. Guess we'll dissect 2011 and 2014....

[TexasTiger 12,974]

I might be off in interpreting what you are trying to say cole, and others might have better explained it, since I haven't read all of this thread. But, I think I understand what you're saying. I believe Auburn fans have such low expectations of QB play now because of JJ in that anything SW did last night was going to be amazing as long as he didn't turn the ball over 3 times or throw into triple coverage multiple times, like JJ. However, as an objective person can see, the offense still had the same issues like when JJ was in there, and the offense didn't produce a TD, whereas JJ at least did. Another point, I don't know if you have hit on this or not, but I ask those who are saying SW did great to look at how Miss. State was playing us, basically disrespecting SW as a runner, and they were right. SW was not a threat to Miss. State, hence why they were willing to sacrifice those dink and dunk throws. In my honest opinion, I believe many Auburn fans have issues with a QB who is a dual threat, for some reason or another. I have been blasted for saying this offense needs a playmaker at QB for us to compete for championhips, but just like Gus, I believe our fans think we can win with a QB who is no threat at running in this offense, which, as I stated before, is not true. What do Cam and NM have in common, and what do Chris Todd, Barrett Trotter/Clint Moseley, JJ, and SW have in common?

I remember thinking Gabe Gross was the best option at the time. Sad thing, he probably was.

[WarTim 3,456]

SW actually progressed through his reads and would dump it off short. I saw only one pass that he missed and it was a wide open Chandler Cox on a wheel route to his right that he never saw.

A redshirt freshman who never took a collegiate snap that went straight to it last night looked poised and confident in the pocket. Much better than JJ. Our biggest problem was getting the ball in the redzone.. Forcing the ball on that interception was a typical frosh mistake. Nothing he could do about Golson's bad snap. And the pass he made to Cox on the out route was catchable but still wouldn't have scored.

Overall, SW did good and will improve and develope. This was his first game. Looked much better than JJ's first game.

Anyone else catch in his post game interview he took the blame and called it a mishandled snap? I don't care if turns out a complete bust (which I highly doubt) the kid has class and leadership skills. Those two together are hard to find these days. I for one am very proud of SW.

Amen and Amen.

[FoundationEagle 637]

So...2009 and anything outside the SEC don't count...when you can cherry pick facts and disregard anything that doesn't prove your point then the discussion is pointless. So, then we have you're entire argument based off of 1 year, 2012...and this year which isn't done. No sense in discussing anymore. How about one year with NM and an 8-5 season? Let me guess, all on the defense? Even the Georgia game?

First of all, kind of hard to comprehend what you were refuting, but I digress. Anyways, yes, I know how successful his years at Tulsa were, but what does that mean in the SEC? He was playing against defenses with nowhere near the talent and complicated schemes as in the SEC, and his personnel were probably the same as the defenses he was playing against, so a wash. But then you add in the fact the advantages an offense like his has over an average to below average defense, then yes, he can be successful, especially with a QB who is not a threat to run. However, you can't deny the impact and world of difference it is to have a dual threat QB like Cam and NM has. And let's talk about last year with NM by the way. I would say against Miss. State and UGA were the only games where our offense plainly stunk it up and lost us the game, but the other games, where we scored at least 30 points, I will blame it on the defense. By the way, it seems like you discount what NM did his first year, you know, winning the SEC and stuff, but whatever. All I'm saying is, look at the difference between the offenses, one with a dual threat, and the other, where SW and JJ are, and where the Tulsa QBs, Chris Todd, Barrett Trotter and Clint Mosely aare placed, and tell me which one has been more successful, i.e., winning championships? I'll hang up and listen...

I haven't discounted anything NM has done ever. You're argument for discounting 2009 also applies to 2013 does it not? The 2013 offense is not even close to what it was in 2010 or ever before in GMs career. Nobody saw that year coming scheme wise. Gus adapted to his personnel. JJ was expected to be similar this year with better passing and crumbled. SW has played 1 game EVER and looks to be a dual threat. Maybe not in the traditional sense, but he is definitely a good enough runner to keep the D honest. Give him time before you condemn his entire career. You said it yourself, the offense caused two losses last year WITH NM. And Cam is the best college qb possibly ever. Not gonna find another probably ever. The sample size is too small to be making absolute statements. What say you if we win out from here and end up with a better offense than last year with NM? Probably be some outside reason that makes it not count. I'll hang up and listen.

EDIT: nobody had ever seen the offense we displayed in the 2010 year either. Guess we should discount that one too since no one had time to prepare for Cam. So by your own logic, 2009, 2010 and 2013 shouldn't count. Guess we'll dissect 2011 and 2014....

And just for the sake of it....Sean White ran for 64 on 7 carries if you take away the sacks caused by the Oline...Marshall in his first outing against a terrible Washington St defense only ran for 27 yards on 9 carries behind one of the best olines in Auburn history

[Auburnguy101 325]

So...2009 and anything outside the SEC don't count...when you can cherry pick facts and disregard anything that doesn't prove your point then the discussion is pointless. So, then we have you're entire argument based off of 1 year, 2012...and this year which isn't done. No sense in discussing anymore. How about one year with NM and an 8-5 season? Let me guess, all on the defense? Even the Georgia game?

First of all, kind of hard to comprehend what you were refuting, but I digress. Anyways, yes, I know how successful his years at Tulsa were, but what does that mean in the SEC? He was playing against defenses with nowhere near the talent and complicated schemes as in the SEC, and his personnel were probably the same as the defenses he was playing against, so a wash. But then you add in the fact the advantages an offense like his has over an average to below average defense, then yes, he can be successful, especially with a QB who is not a threat to run. However, you can't deny the impact and world of difference it is to have a dual threat QB like Cam and NM has. And let's talk about last year with NM by the way. I would say against Miss. State and UGA were the only games where our offense plainly stunk it up and lost us the game, but the other games, where we scored at least 30 points, I will blame it on the defense. By the way, it seems like you discount what NM did his first year, you know, winning the SEC and stuff, but whatever. All I'm saying is, look at the difference between the offenses, one with a dual threat, and the other, where SW and JJ are, and where the Tulsa QBs, Chris Todd, Barrett Trotter and Clint Mosely aare placed, and tell me which one has been more successful, i.e., winning championships? I'll hang up and listen...

I haven't discounted anything NM has done ever. You're argument for discounting 2009 also applies to 2013 does it not? The 2013 offense is not even close to what it was in 2010 or ever before in GMs career. Nobody saw that year coming scheme wise. Gus adapted to his personnel. JJ was expected to be similar this year with better passing and crumbled. SW has played 1 game EVER and looks to be a dual threat. Maybe not in the traditional sense, but he is definitely a good enough runner to keep the D honest. Give him time before you condemn his entire career. You said it yourself, the offense caused two losses last year WITH NM. And Cam is the best college qb possibly ever. Not gonna find another probably ever. The sample size is too small to be making absolute statements. What say you if we win out from here and end up with a better offense than last year with NM? Probably be some outside reason that makes it not count. I'll hang up and listen.

EDIT: nobody had ever seen the offense we displayed in the 2010 year either. Guess we should discount that one too since no one had time to prepare for Cam. So by your own logic, 2009, 2010 and 2013 shouldn't count. Guess we'll dissect 2011 and 2014....

Haha, this is fun. You still haven't answered any of my questions. What do you mean no one had ever seen an offense like we had in 2010? Does Tebow ring a bell? Also, you and many others have completely missed my point. My whole argument has been that a dual threat QB is needed to win championships with this style of offense. I don't get attached to players and coaches like you guys do apparently. I understand SW might be our option right now, all I'm saying is why not give a series or two to Jason Smith? Again, provide facts and stats that a dual threat QB in this offense is worse than non-dual threat QBs on Gus' offense, and also ho many championships they've won? Look, we're going around in circles. I see and observe that dual threat QBs would make this offense better, while you and others feel as though a player like SW is good enough. Agree to disagree.

[FoundationEagle 637]

So...2009 and anything outside the SEC don't count...when you can cherry pick facts and disregard anything that doesn't prove your point then the discussion is pointless. So, then we have you're entire argument based off of 1 year, 2012...and this year which isn't done. No sense in discussing anymore. How about one year with NM and an 8-5 season? Let me guess, all on the defense? Even the Georgia game?

First of all, kind of hard to comprehend what you were refuting, but I digress. Anyways, yes, I know how successful his years at Tulsa were, but what does that mean in the SEC? He was playing against defenses with nowhere near the talent and complicated schemes as in the SEC, and his personnel were probably the same as the defenses he was playing against, so a wash. But then you add in the fact the advantages an offense like his has over an average to below average defense, then yes, he can be successful, especially with a QB who is not a threat to run. However, you can't deny the impact and world of difference it is to have a dual threat QB like Cam and NM has. And let's talk about last year with NM by the way. I would say against Miss. State and UGA were the only games where our offense plainly stunk it up and lost us the game, but the other games, where we scored at least 30 points, I will blame it on the defense. By the way, it seems like you discount what NM did his first year, you know, winning the SEC and stuff, but whatever. All I'm saying is, look at the difference between the offenses, one with a dual threat, and the other, where SW and JJ are, and where the Tulsa QBs, Chris Todd, Barrett Trotter and Clint Mosely aare placed, and tell me which one has been more successful, i.e., winning championships? I'll hang up and listen...

I haven't discounted anything NM has done ever. You're argument for discounting 2009 also applies to 2013 does it not? The 2013 offense is not even close to what it was in 2010 or ever before in GMs career. Nobody saw that year coming scheme wise. Gus adapted to his personnel. JJ was expected to be similar this year with better passing and crumbled. SW has played 1 game EVER and looks to be a dual threat. Maybe not in the traditional sense, but he is definitely a good enough runner to keep the D honest. Give him time before you condemn his entire career. You said it yourself, the offense caused two losses last year WITH NM. And Cam is the best college qb possibly ever. Not gonna find another probably ever. The sample size is too small to be making absolute statements. What say you if we win out from here and end up with a better offense than last year with NM? Probably be some outside reason that makes it not count. I'll hang up and listen.

EDIT: nobody had ever seen the offense we displayed in the 2010 year either. Guess we should discount that one too since no one had time to prepare for Cam. So by your own logic, 2009, 2010 and 2013 shouldn't count. Guess we'll dissect 2011 and 2014....

Haha, this is fun. You still haven't answered any of my questions. What do you mean no one had ever seen an offense like we had in 2010? Does Tebow ring a bell? Also, you and many others have completely missed my point. My whole argument has been that a dual threat QB is needed to win championships with this style of offense. I don't get attached to players and coaches like you guys do apparently. I understand SW might be our option right now, all I'm saying is why not give a series or two to Jason Smith? Again, provide facts and stats that a dual threat QB in this offense is worse than non-dual threat QBs on Gus' offense, and also ho many championships they've won? Look, we're going around in circles. I see and observe that dual threat QBs would make this offense better, while you and others feel as though a player like SW is good enough. Agree to disagree.

. Stats? Read my post above yours.

[Auburnguy101 325]

I might be off in interpreting what you are trying to say cole, and others might have better explained it, since I haven't read all of this thread. But, I think I understand what you're saying. I believe Auburn fans have such low expectations of QB play now because of JJ in that anything SW did last night was going to be amazing as long as he didn't turn the ball over 3 times or throw into triple coverage multiple times, like JJ. However, as an objective person can see, the offense still had the same issues like when JJ was in there, and the offense didn't produce a TD, whereas JJ at least did. Another point, I don't know if you have hit on this or not, but I ask those who are saying SW did great to look at how Miss. State was playing us, basically disrespecting SW as a runner, and they were right. SW was not a threat to Miss. State, hence why they were willing to sacrifice those dink and dunk throws. In my honest opinion, I believe many Auburn fans have issues with a QB who is a dual threat, for some reason or another. I have been blasted for saying this offense needs a playmaker at QB for us to compete for championhips, but just like Gus, I believe our fans think we can win with a QB who is no threat at running in this offense, which, as I stated before, is not true. What do Cam and NM have in common, and what do Chris Todd, Barrett Trotter/Clint Moseley, JJ, and SW have in common?

I remember thinking Gabe Gross was the best option at the time. Sad thing, he probably was.

Not sure of what this was about. My argument was what would it hurt to have Jason Smith have a couple of series at QB....

[Auburnguy101 325]

So...2009 and anything outside the SEC don't count...when you can cherry pick facts and disregard anything that doesn't prove your point then the discussion is pointless. So, then we have you're entire argument based off of 1 year, 2012...and this year which isn't done. No sense in discussing anymore. How about one year with NM and an 8-5 season? Let me guess, all on the defense? Even the Georgia game?

First of all, kind of hard to comprehend what you were refuting, but I digress. Anyways, yes, I know how successful his years at Tulsa were, but what does that mean in the SEC? He was playing against defenses with nowhere near the talent and complicated schemes as in the SEC, and his personnel were probably the same as the defenses he was playing against, so a wash. But then you add in the fact the advantages an offense like his has over an average to below average defense, then yes, he can be successful, especially with a QB who is not a threat to run. However, you can't deny the impact and world of difference it is to have a dual threat QB like Cam and NM has. And let's talk about last year with NM by the way. I would say against Miss. State and UGA were the only games where our offense plainly stunk it up and lost us the game, but the other games, where we scored at least 30 points, I will blame it on the defense. By the way, it seems like you discount what NM did his first year, you know, winning the SEC and stuff, but whatever. All I'm saying is, look at the difference between the offenses, one with a dual threat, and the other, where SW and JJ are, and where the Tulsa QBs, Chris Todd, Barrett Trotter and Clint Mosely aare placed, and tell me which one has been more successful, i.e., winning championships? I'll hang up and listen...

I haven't discounted anything NM has done ever. You're argument for discounting 2009 also applies to 2013 does it not? The 2013 offense is not even close to what it was in 2010 or ever before in GMs career. Nobody saw that year coming scheme wise. Gus adapted to his personnel. JJ was expected to be similar this year with better passing and crumbled. SW has played 1 game EVER and looks to be a dual threat. Maybe not in the traditional sense, but he is definitely a good enough runner to keep the D honest. Give him time before you condemn his entire career. You said it yourself, the offense caused two losses last year WITH NM. And Cam is the best college qb possibly ever. Not gonna find another probably ever. The sample size is too small to be making absolute statements. What say you if we win out from here and end up with a better offense than last year with NM? Probably be some outside reason that makes it not count. I'll hang up and listen.

EDIT: nobody had ever seen the offense we displayed in the 2010 year either. Guess we should discount that one too since no one had time to prepare for Cam. So by your own logic, 2009, 2010 and 2013 shouldn't count. Guess we'll dissect 2011 and 2014....

And just for the sake of it....Sean White ran for 64 on 7 carries if you take away the sacks caused by the Oline...Marshall in his first outing against a terrible Washington St defense only ran for 27 yards on 9 carries behind one of the best olines in Auburn history

You know, you're completely right. SW is better than NM. NM only wishes he could run like SW. Man, gotta give it you on that one.

[augolf1716 21,253]

I might be off in interpreting what you are trying to say cole, and others might have better explained it, since I haven't read all of this thread. But, I think I understand what you're saying. I believe Auburn fans have such low expectations of QB play now because of JJ in that anything SW did last night was going to be amazing as long as he didn't turn the ball over 3 times or throw into triple coverage multiple times, like JJ. However, as an objective person can see, the offense still had the same issues like when JJ was in there, and the offense didn't produce a TD, whereas JJ at least did. Another point, I don't know if you have hit on this or not, but I ask those who are saying SW did great to look at how Miss. State was playing us, basically disrespecting SW as a runner, and they were right. SW was not a threat to Miss. State, hence why they were willing to sacrifice those dink and dunk throws. In my honest opinion, I believe many Auburn fans have issues with a QB who is a dual threat, for some reason or another. I have been blasted for saying this offense needs a playmaker at QB for us to compete for championhips, but just like Gus, I believe our fans think we can win with a QB who is no threat at running in this offense, which, as I stated before, is not true. What do Cam and NM have in common, and what do Chris Todd, Barrett Trotter/Clint Moseley, JJ, and SW have in common?

I remember thinking Gabe Gross was the best option at the time. Sad thing, he probably was.

Yep that 17-0 lead against the bammers disappeared quickly.

[OnthePlains 2,014]

So...2009 and anything outside the SEC don't count...when you can cherry pick facts and disregard anything that doesn't prove your point then the discussion is pointless. So, then we have you're entire argument based off of 1 year, 2012...and this year which isn't done. No sense in discussing anymore. How about one year with NM and an 8-5 season? Let me guess, all on the defense? Even the Georgia game?

First of all, kind of hard to comprehend what you were refuting, but I digress. Anyways, yes, I know how successful his years at Tulsa were, but what does that mean in the SEC? He was playing against defenses with nowhere near the talent and complicated schemes as in the SEC, and his personnel were probably the same as the defenses he was playing against, so a wash. But then you add in the fact the advantages an offense like his has over an average to below average defense, then yes, he can be successful, especially with a QB who is not a threat to run. However, you can't deny the impact and world of difference it is to have a dual threat QB like Cam and NM has. And let's talk about last year with NM by the way. I would say against Miss. State and UGA were the only games where our offense plainly stunk it up and lost us the game, but the other games, where we scored at least 30 points, I will blame it on the defense. By the way, it seems like you discount what NM did his first year, you know, winning the SEC and stuff, but whatever. All I'm saying is, look at the difference between the offenses, one with a dual threat, and the other, where SW and JJ are, and where the Tulsa QBs, Chris Todd, Barrett Trotter and Clint Mosely aare placed, and tell me which one has been more successful, i.e., winning championships? I'll hang up and listen...

I haven't discounted anything NM has done ever. You're argument for discounting 2009 also applies to 2013 does it not? The 2013 offense is not even close to what it was in 2010 or ever before in GMs career. Nobody saw that year coming scheme wise. Gus adapted to his personnel. JJ was expected to be similar this year with better passing and crumbled. SW has played 1 game EVER and looks to be a dual threat. Maybe not in the traditional sense, but he is definitely a good enough runner to keep the D honest. Give him time before you condemn his entire career. You said it yourself, the offense caused two losses last year WITH NM. And Cam is the best college qb possibly ever. Not gonna find another probably ever. The sample size is too small to be making absolute statements. What say you if we win out from here and end up with a better offense than last year with NM? Probably be some outside reason that makes it not count. I'll hang up and listen.

EDIT: nobody had ever seen the offense we displayed in the 2010 year either. Guess we should discount that one too since no one had time to prepare for Cam. So by your own logic, 2009, 2010 and 2013 shouldn't count. Guess we'll dissect 2011 and 2014....

Haha, this is fun. You still haven't answered any of my questions. What do you mean no one had ever seen an offense like we had in 2010? Does Tebow ring a bell? Also, you and many others have completely missed my point. My whole argument has been that a dual threat QB is needed to win championships with this style of offense. I don't get attached to players and coaches like you guys do apparently. I understand SW might be our option right now, all I'm saying is why not give a series or two to Jason Smith? Again, provide facts and stats that a dual threat QB in this offense is worse than non-dual threat QBs on Gus' offense, and also ho many championships they've won? Look, we're going around in circles. I see and observe that dual threat QBs would make this offense better, while you and others feel as though a player like SW is good enough. Agree to disagree.

Doesn't nearly any offense perform better with a dual threat qb? Even with Cam we nearly lost about 4 or 5 games and had games where the offense under performed. With NM we had games where the offense struggled. The common denominator in 2010 and 2013 was a strong o line and opportunistic defense. If our o line could get their act together and our d could play better it wouldn't matter if it was a dual threat qb or not. I tend to think if Gus thought Jason Smith could contribute as a qb we would see him out there doing it.

[FoundationEagle 637]

So...2009 and anything outside the SEC don't count...when you can cherry pick facts and disregard anything that doesn't prove your point then the discussion is pointless. So, then we have you're entire argument based off of 1 year, 2012...and this year which isn't done. No sense in discussing anymore. How about one year with NM and an 8-5 season? Let me guess, all on the defense? Even the Georgia game?

First of all, kind of hard to comprehend what you were refuting, but I digress. Anyways, yes, I know how successful his years at Tulsa were, but what does that mean in the SEC? He was playing against defenses with nowhere near the talent and complicated schemes as in the SEC, and his personnel were probably the same as the defenses he was playing against, so a wash. But then you add in the fact the advantages an offense like his has over an average to below average defense, then yes, he can be successful, especially with a QB who is not a threat to run. However, you can't deny the impact and world of difference it is to have a dual threat QB like Cam and NM has. And let's talk about last year with NM by the way. I would say against Miss. State and UGA were the only games where our offense plainly stunk it up and lost us the game, but the other games, where we scored at least 30 points, I will blame it on the defense. By the way, it seems like you discount what NM did his first year, you know, winning the SEC and stuff, but whatever. All I'm saying is, look at the difference between the offenses, one with a dual threat, and the other, where SW and JJ are, and where the Tulsa QBs, Chris Todd, Barrett Trotter and Clint Mosely aare placed, and tell me which one has been more successful, i.e., winning championships? I'll hang up and listen...

I haven't discounted anything NM has done ever. You're argument for discounting 2009 also applies to 2013 does it not? The 2013 offense is not even close to what it was in 2010 or ever before in GMs career. Nobody saw that year coming scheme wise. Gus adapted to his personnel. JJ was expected to be similar this year with better passing and crumbled. SW has played 1 game EVER and looks to be a dual threat. Maybe not in the traditional sense, but he is definitely a good enough runner to keep the D honest. Give him time before you condemn his entire career. You said it yourself, the offense caused two losses last year WITH NM. And Cam is the best college qb possibly ever. Not gonna find another probably ever. The sample size is too small to be making absolute statements. What say you if we win out from here and end up with a better offense than last year with NM? Probably be some outside reason that makes it not count. I'll hang up and listen.

EDIT: nobody had ever seen the offense we displayed in the 2010 year either. Guess we should discount that one too since no one had time to prepare for Cam. So by your own logic, 2009, 2010 and 2013 shouldn't count. Guess we'll dissect 2011 and 2014....

And just for the sake of it....Sean White ran for 64 on 7 carries if you take away the sacks caused by the Oline...Marshall in his first outing against a terrible Washington St defense only ran for 27 yards on 9 carries behind one of the best olines in Auburn history

You know, you're completely right. SW is better than NM. NM only wishes he could run like SW. Man, gotta give it you on that one.

Apples to apples. SWs first game versus NMs first game. You're trying to compare full seasons to one game which is completely asinine. You keep asking for stats and I keep giving you more of them, yet you discount every single real statistic other than championship seasons. Guess what...NM lost two games in his best season. So far we've lost two games. Stats don't matter to you. We will forever disagree which is fine. I'll stick with all the facts instead of ones I like.

[jmcrosson 203]

So...2009 and anything outside the SEC don't count...when you can cherry pick facts and disregard anything that doesn't prove your point then the discussion is pointless. So, then we have you're entire argument based off of 1 year, 2012...and this year which isn't done. No sense in discussing anymore. How about one year with NM and an 8-5 season? Let me guess, all on the defense? Even the Georgia game?

First of all, kind of hard to comprehend what you were refuting, but I digress. Anyways, yes, I know how successful his years at Tulsa were, but what does that mean in the SEC? He was playing against defenses with nowhere near the talent and complicated schemes as in the SEC, and his personnel were probably the same as the defenses he was playing against, so a wash. But then you add in the fact the advantages an offense like his has over an average to below average defense, then yes, he can be successful, especially with a QB who is not a threat to run. However, you can't deny the impact and world of difference it is to have a dual threat QB like Cam and NM has. And let's talk about last year with NM by the way. I would say against Miss. State and UGA were the only games where our offense plainly stunk it up and lost us the game, but the other games, where we scored at least 30 points, I will blame it on the defense. By the way, it seems like you discount what NM did his first year, you know, winning the SEC and stuff, but whatever. All I'm saying is, look at the difference between the offenses, one with a dual threat, and the other, where SW and JJ are, and where the Tulsa QBs, Chris Todd, Barrett Trotter and Clint Mosely aare placed, and tell me which one has been more successful, i.e., winning championships? I'll hang up and listen...

If you're going to hang up, stop calling back!

[OnthePlains 2,014]

I might be off in interpreting what you are trying to say cole, and others might have better explained it, since I haven't read all of this thread. But, I think I understand what you're saying. I believe Auburn fans have such low expectations of QB play now because of JJ in that anything SW did last night was going to be amazing as long as he didn't turn the ball over 3 times or throw into triple coverage multiple times, like JJ. However, as an objective person can see, the offense still had the same issues like when JJ was in there, and the offense didn't produce a TD, whereas JJ at least did. Another point, I don't know if you have hit on this or not, but I ask those who are saying SW did great to look at how Miss. State was playing us, basically disrespecting SW as a runner, and they were right. SW was not a threat to Miss. State, hence why they were willing to sacrifice those dink and dunk throws. In my honest opinion, I believe many Auburn fans have issues with a QB who is a dual threat, for some reason or another. I have been blasted for saying this offense needs a playmaker at QB for us to compete for championhips, but just like Gus, I believe our fans think we can win with a QB who is no threat at running in this offense, which, as I stated before, is not true. What do Cam and NM have in common, and what do Chris Todd, Barrett Trotter/Clint Moseley, JJ, and SW have in common?

I remember thinking Gabe Gross was the best option at the time. Sad thing, he probably was.

Yep that 17-0 lead against the bammers disappeared quickly.

If memory serves that was a really bad o line that year and Gabe spent a ton of time on his back. Gabe was a great athlete but couldn't overcome a porus o line. Had a solid basebal career though.

[alexava 6,973]

this is headache inducing.

[cole256 17,084]

Lol

[jmcrosson 203]

this is headache inducing.

Most of the threads since Saturday are headache inducing. Agreed.

[cole256 17,084]

this is headache inducing.

Most of the threads since Saturday are headache inducing. Agreed.

It would be ok if there were more than 8 people on this board you could actually talk to without it getting combative

[wdefromtx 3,159]

This thread is like.....

[Auburnguy101 325]

So...2009 and anything outside the SEC don't count...when you can cherry pick facts and disregard anything that doesn't prove your point then the discussion is pointless. So, then we have you're entire argument based off of 1 year, 2012...and this year which isn't done. No sense in discussing anymore. How about one year with NM and an 8-5 season? Let me guess, all on the defense? Even the Georgia game?

First of all, kind of hard to comprehend what you were refuting, but I digress. Anyways, yes, I know how successful his years at Tulsa were, but what does that mean in the SEC? He was playing against defenses with nowhere near the talent and complicated schemes as in the SEC, and his personnel were probably the same as the defenses he was playing against, so a wash. But then you add in the fact the advantages an offense like his has over an average to below average defense, then yes, he can be successful, especially with a QB who is not a threat to run. However, you can't deny the impact and world of difference it is to have a dual threat QB like Cam and NM has. And let's talk about last year with NM by the way. I would say against Miss. State and UGA were the only games where our offense plainly stunk it up and lost us the game, but the other games, where we scored at least 30 points, I will blame it on the defense. By the way, it seems like you discount what NM did his first year, you know, winning the SEC and stuff, but whatever. All I'm saying is, look at the difference between the offenses, one with a dual threat, and the other, where SW and JJ are, and where the Tulsa QBs, Chris Todd, Barrett Trotter and Clint Mosely aare placed, and tell me which one has been more successful, i.e., winning championships? I'll hang up and listen...

I haven't discounted anything NM has done ever. You're argument for discounting 2009 also applies to 2013 does it not? The 2013 offense is not even close to what it was in 2010 or ever before in GMs career. Nobody saw that year coming scheme wise. Gus adapted to his personnel. JJ was expected to be similar this year with better passing and crumbled. SW has played 1 game EVER and looks to be a dual threat. Maybe not in the traditional sense, but he is definitely a good enough runner to keep the D honest. Give him time before you condemn his entire career. You said it yourself, the offense caused two losses last year WITH NM. And Cam is the best college qb possibly ever. Not gonna find another probably ever. The sample size is too small to be making absolute statements. What say you if we win out from here and end up with a better offense than last year with NM? Probably be some outside reason that makes it not count. I'll hang up and listen.

EDIT: nobody had ever seen the offense we displayed in the 2010 year either. Guess we should discount that one too since no one had time to prepare for Cam. So by your own logic, 2009, 2010 and 2013 shouldn't count. Guess we'll dissect 2011 and 2014....

Haha, this is fun. You still haven't answered any of my questions. What do you mean no one had ever seen an offense like we had in 2010? Does Tebow ring a bell? Also, you and many others have completely missed my point. My whole argument has been that a dual threat QB is needed to win championships with this style of offense. I don't get attached to players and coaches like you guys do apparently. I understand SW might be our option right now, all I'm saying is why not give a series or two to Jason Smith? Again, provide facts and stats that a dual threat QB in this offense is worse than non-dual threat QBs on Gus' offense, and also ho many championships they've won? Look, we're going around in circles. I see and observe that dual threat QBs would make this offense better, while you and others feel as though a player like SW is good enough. Agree to disagree.

Doesn't nearly any offense perform better with a dual threat qb? Even with Cam we nearly lost about 4 or 5 games and had games where the offense under performed. With NM we had games where the offense struggled. The common denominator in 2010 and 2013 was a strong o line and opportunistic defense. If our o line could get their act together and our d could play better it wouldn't matter if it was a dual threat qb or not. I tend to think if Gus thought Jason Smith could contribute as a qb we would see him out there doing it.

Yea, when you have a QB who is a playmaker at QB, you're always in the game with a chance to win it, that's been my whole argument! I'll agree, our offense as a whole hasn't played well at all for either QBs to do well. Our D played well enough to win by the way last night. You still think we win championships with a Chris Todd or SW or whatever non-dual threat QB in those years? I understand that helped Cam and NM out a lot, but if you're telling me we would have been that successful without them, well, I'm utterly speechless...

[augolf1716 21,253]

this is headache inducing.

Most of the threads since Saturday are headache inducing. Agreed.

It would be ok if there were more than 8 people on this board you could actually talk to without it getting combative

Dare to name them??????????????????

[OnthePlains 2,014]

I bet there are some rival fans (not counting the ones who pose as Auburn fans and post) who get a big kick out of coming on here after losses and watching the meltdowns.

[jmcrosson 203]

this is headache inducing.

Most of the threads since Saturday are headache inducing. Agreed.

It would be ok if there were more than 8 people on this board you could actually talk to without it getting combative

You didn't know who frequented this board, cole?

[Potatooooooes!! 1,375]

Personally, I think White did a phenomenal job and I look forward to him being our starter for the next few years.

[macauburn 6]

That touch pass he threw over the CB and in front of the safety was a thing of beauty

I agree, nice arcs on the ball, he really can paint a pass. very accurate. He got killed with the pass rush, took a beating but never faded, stood tall, I think people are gonna be glad they played us early in the season.

[wdefromtx 3,159]

So...2009 and anything outside the SEC don't count...when you can cherry pick facts and disregard anything that doesn't prove your point then the discussion is pointless. So, then we have you're entire argument based off of 1 year, 2012...and this year which isn't done. No sense in discussing anymore. How about one year with NM and an 8-5 season? Let me guess, all on the defense? Even the Georgia game?

First of all, kind of hard to comprehend what you were refuting, but I digress. Anyways, yes, I know how successful his years at Tulsa were, but what does that mean in the SEC? He was playing against defenses with nowhere near the talent and complicated schemes as in the SEC, and his personnel were probably the same as the defenses he was playing against, so a wash. But then you add in the fact the advantages an offense like his has over an average to below average defense, then yes, he can be successful, especially with a QB who is not a threat to run. However, you can't deny the impact and world of difference it is to have a dual threat QB like Cam and NM has. And let's talk about last year with NM by the way. I would say against Miss. State and UGA were the only games where our offense plainly stunk it up and lost us the game, but the other games, where we scored at least 30 points, I will blame it on the defense. By the way, it seems like you discount what NM did his first year, you know, winning the SEC and stuff, but whatever. All I'm saying is, look at the difference between the offenses, one with a dual threat, and the other, where SW and JJ are, and where the Tulsa QBs, Chris Todd, Barrett Trotter and Clint Mosely aare placed, and tell me which one has been more successful, i.e., winning championships? I'll hang up and listen...

I haven't discounted anything NM has done ever. You're argument for discounting 2009 also applies to 2013 does it not? The 2013 offense is not even close to what it was in 2010 or ever before in GMs career. Nobody saw that year coming scheme wise. Gus adapted to his personnel. JJ was expected to be similar this year with better passing and crumbled. SW has played 1 game EVER and looks to be a dual threat. Maybe not in the traditional sense, but he is definitely a good enough runner to keep the D honest. Give him time before you condemn his entire career. You said it yourself, the offense caused two losses last year WITH NM. And Cam is the best college qb possibly ever. Not gonna find another probably ever. The sample size is too small to be making absolute statements. What say you if we win out from here and end up with a better offense than last year with NM? Probably be some outside reason that makes it not count. I'll hang up and listen.

EDIT: nobody had ever seen the offense we displayed in the 2010 year either. Guess we should discount that one too since no one had time to prepare for Cam. So by your own logic, 2009, 2010 and 2013 shouldn't count. Guess we'll dissect 2011 and 2014....

Haha, this is fun. You still haven't answered any of my questions. What do you mean no one had ever seen an offense like we had in 2010? Does Tebow ring a bell? Also, you and many others have completely missed my point. My whole argument has been that a dual threat QB is needed to win championships with this style of offense. I don't get attached to players and coaches like you guys do apparently. I understand SW might be our option right now, all I'm saying is why not give a series or two to Jason Smith? Again, provide facts and stats that a dual threat QB in this offense is worse than non-dual threat QBs on Gus' offense, and also ho many championships they've won? Look, we're going around in circles. I see and observe that dual threat QBs would make this offense better, while you and others feel as though a player like SW is good enough. Agree to disagree.

Doesn't nearly any offense perform better with a dual threat qb? Even with Cam we nearly lost about 4 or 5 games and had games where the offense under performed. With NM we had games where the offense struggled. The common denominator in 2010 and 2013 was a strong o line and opportunistic defense. If our o line could get their act together and our d could play better it wouldn't matter if it was a dual threat qb or not. I tend to think if Gus thought Jason Smith could contribute as a qb we would see him out there doing it.

Yea, when you have a QB who is a playmaker at QB, you're always in the game with a chance to win it, that's been my whole argument! I'll agree, our offense as a whole hasn't played well at all for either QBs to do well. Our D played well enough to win by the way last night. You still think we win championships with a Chris Todd or SW or whatever non-dual threat QB in those years? I understand that helped Cam and NM out a lot, but if you're telling me we would have been that successful without them, well, I'm utterly speechless...

I think it is less to do with being DT QB and more with the player themselves. If SW's past performance in high school, Elite 11, etc. is any indication of future results I would say he can win a championship in this offense.