The Brexit Vote

[TexasTiger 12,853]

Your outsized hatred of Obama leads you to blame him for Brexit which no rational, thinking, sane person does. You can't comprehend the why here. It's truly pathetic to think Obama played any meaningful role in the decision making process of the British public. They have their own history, culture, politics and reasons that have nothing to do with those you sit around stewing hate over.

No one BLAMED him for Brexit. I know you have the warm feels for Barry, but look past your Agitator in Chief mania and look at what he did, what he said, and then put that in context with how the people voted.

He ( and Hillary ) , once again, ended up on the wrong side of history. Obama backed Remain. He ACTIVELY tried to get Netanyahu out, and failed. The ridiculous ' RESET ' effort by he and Hillary was a joke. Oh yeah, then Libya. Took a compliant , albeit nut case leader in Gaddafi , and collapsed that country, got a US Amb. killed, and then lied about it...

But you'll gladly ignore ALL that and just reply with ' hate ', and act as if you've won some gorram moral 1st place prize for being awesome.

You make every thread about those you hate, relevance be damned. Pathetic.

[AURaptor 1,122]

Sit down when chewing gum, Texas. Don't tax your brain.

[TexasTiger 12,853]

Sit down when chewing gum, Texas. Don't tax your brain.

Dealing with you taxes my soul.

[AURaptor 1,122]

Sit down when chewing gum, Texas. Don't tax your brain.

Dealing with you taxes my soul.

That's more of a YOU problem than anything.

Nothing I said here can be disputed, factually, What has you all frownie faced is that I'm just pointing out the facts. The details which apparently the MSM , for SOME odd reason, won't relay to the general public. Oh, but you can sure bet, if there was a Republican in the WH, we'd hear all about it.

[TexasTiger 12,853]

Sit down when chewing gum, Texas. Don't tax your brain.

Dealing with you taxes my soul.

That's more of a YOU problem than anything.

Nothing I said here can be disputed, factually, What has you all frownie faced is that I'm just pointing out the facts. The details which apparently the MSM , for SOME odd reason, won't relay to the general public. Oh, but you can sure bet, if there was a Republican in the WH, we'd hear all about it.

Everyone knows Obama opposed Brexit. As did the political establishment everywhere, including the leadership of the Tories and Labour. So what? You and others pound your chest like your side won the Super Bowl. This is a complex political issue with valid arguments on both sides. I have no strong position on it, but watching the reaction of guys like you is at the same time humorous and sad.

[AURaptor 1,122]

I have no strong position on it, but watching the reaction of guys like you is at the same time humorous and sad.

So, on principle, if I cheer for it, you hate it ? Is that what you're basically trying to say?

There's so much here you don't bother with understanding, and then when you see others having a certain reaction, you just instinctively get annoyed when " our side " , what ever that may mean, celebrates ?

Yes, the "establishment" , the leaders of both Tories and Labour parties were for it, but not the rank and file members.

I see a majority of citizens , regardless of political stripes, send a clear message to their " leadership " that they no longer are impressed w/ the overly bureaucratic nonsense and being ruled by unaccountable officials in a foreign land , telling them how to run their lives.

I'll side w/ freedom more times than not, and if that has your boxers in a bunch, so what ?

I do find it curious that the Left in Scotland are now so eager to leave Britain, just so they can jump right in and be a part of the EU. Trade one master for another one ? Seems stupid to me, but their choice. More power to 'em.

[TexasTiger 12,853]

I have no strong position on it, but watching the reaction of guys like you is at the same time humorous and sad.

So, on principle, if I cheer for it, you hate it ? Is that what you're basically trying to say?

:laugh:/>

There's so much here you don't bother with understanding, and then when you see others having a certain reaction, you just instinctively get annoyed when " our side " , what ever that may mean, celebrates ?

Yes, the "establishment" , the leaders of both Tories and Labour parties were for it, but not the rank and file members.

I see a majority of citizens , regardless of political stripes, send a clear message to their " leadership " that they no longer are impressed w/ the overly bureaucratic nonsense and being ruled by unaccountable officials in a foreign land , telling them how to run their lives.

I'll side w/ freedom more times than not, and if that has your boxers in a bunch, so what ?

I do find it curious that the Left in Scotland are now so eager to leave Britain, just so they can jump right in and be a part of the EU. Trade one master for another one ? Seems stupid to me, but their choice. More power to 'em.

I don't object to the vote at all. The establishment clearly had gotten too removed from the voters. Will those voters truly benefit from their decision? It remains to be seen. I think both sides have probably overstated their respective cases.

[AURaptor 1,122]

Aside from all the positive / negative of the vote, I can't help but notice that, yet once again, the polling had this vote almost exactly backwards.

I admit, I didn't follow all that intently, but the general vibe I was getting is that Leave was the general consensus, looking very possible, then after the murder of the MP , it swayed to Remain, and on the eve of the vote, Remain seemed to be a close but safe bet. I think 90% was the one figure I heard as to how the odds had it going for staying.

[AUDub 11,147]

The Britons who voted to divorce from the EU confused a boring marriage with a bad one

There are good reasons to leave a marriage—constant conflict, deep differences, a deranged partner. There are also less good ones—conversation’s a bit dull, the sex isn’t great, or you have the same thing for breakfast every morning.

British voters just called it quits on their 43-year-long marriage with the EU. The 52% who voted “leave” may have believed they did so over deep-seated and long-held grievances with the status quo: They were on average older and poorer (paywall) than the population at large. Yet their poverty was long-entrenched, not necessarily connected with growing economic inequality or foreigners taking jobs, and the regions that voted to leave were those that most depend on trade with the EU. Dull, passionless, and repetitive it may have been, but theirs was a boring marriage, not a bad one.

The Brexit campaign made a simple but alluring appeal to them: “Take back control.” And it worked. But some Britons are already realizing the grass isn’t magically greener. More than 80 pro-Brexit parliamentarians urged pro-EU prime minister David Cameron to stay in his job for stability’s sake; he promptly resigned. The “leave” campaign suggested that divorce proceedings with the EU needn’t be too hasty, but Brussels isn’t in the mood for delays. As the the pound tanks and stocks tremble, it’s getting harder for the Brexit camp to maintain the claim that warnings of an economic wipeout were an elaborate EU plot to bully British voters.

Even nationalist leader Nigel Farage admitted one of his side’s key campaign pledges—to redirect funds from the EU budget to the national health service—was “a mistake.” And though Boris Johnson, the face of the Brexit campaign and now frontrunner for prime minister, rebuked those such as Farage “who play politics with immigration,” the “leave” campaign played plenty of that politics itself, and Johnson may find it hard to put that genie back in the bottle.

Divorce can be thrilling, but in the cold light of the morning after, freedom isn’t always such fun. When you “take back control,” there’s nobody left to blame when things go wrong.

[AUDub 11,147]

Aside from all the positive / negative of the vote, I can't help but notice that, yet once again, the polling had this vote almost exactly backwards.

I admit, I didn't follow all that intently, but the general vibe I was getting is that Leave was the general consensus, looking very possible, then after the murder of the MP , it swayed to Remain, and on the eve of the vote, Remain seemed to be a close but safe bet. I think 90% was the one figure I heard as to how the odds had it going for staying.

Wasn't too awful this time. They predicted a narrow victory for the remain camp and it ended up being a narrow victory for the leave camp. They missed of course, but right along/outside their margin of error.

[TexasTiger 12,853]

Aside from all the positive / negative of the vote, I can't help but notice that, yet once again, the polling had this vote almost exactly backwards.

I admit, I didn't follow all that intently, but the general vibe I was getting is that Leave was the general consensus, looking very possible, then after the murder of the MP , it swayed to Remain, and on the eve of the vote, Remain seemed to be a close but safe bet. I think 90% was the one figure I heard as to how the odds had it going for staying.

I think polls were closer than some folks confidence suggested, but UK polling has been increasingly unreliable. Almost everyone uses mobile phones.

[AURaptor 1,122]

I have to admit, I did enjoy watching the live coverage on the BBC. If anyone had a chance to tune in, it was far more revealing and interesting than anything fox or cnn could offer.

[japantiger 4,051]

Freedom, and self determination; never a bad thing. Anytime the bureaucrats starting warning of catastrophe and dire consequences, you can pretty much discount it as complete bull****. And that includes bureaucrats across the globe...they all felt threatened by the Brexit....why else would our own president make stupid statements like "you'll go to the back of the line" when in their country other than to try to scare them relative to their relations with the US; and Hillary, good god....and now both are trying to walk back and make everyone think they are key to making the aftermath work. Neither will try to do anything....The underlying economics of the UK are no different from last week to today. They're still the 5th largest economy; with a strong brand, underlying economics and currency; still stronger than the Euro I might add; 1 GBP = 1.23 Euros. All the whaling and gnashing of teeth on the market yesterday; Armageddon didn't happen....hhmmm... And what if the markets go down another 600 points on Monday? Pretty much nothing...it would still be up 1,000 points YTD...look at the last year; look at the last 15 years...what's different about that?

Can't remember who posted it here; but the old notion of self government at the most local level possible needs to make a serious comeback. I'd like to see an Article 5 convention and put some serious constraints on the fed. Frankly, my neighborhood has nothing in common with New York City, Los Angeles or Washington DC. Their issues are not mine or my neighbors. About 90% of the horse***t that comes out of either place has no bearing on how me or my neighbors run our lives....well, not entirely true; they want to assume that living in the big city is like life everywhere...so frankly it's just ridiculous when applied to my neighborhood. Frankly, I'd just like to see DC blown completely up. It was a constitutional act to create it; one could as easily tear the mess down. The notion of one all powerful capital for a continent this big has seen it's day come and go. How about we just move it overnight to the geographic center of the US for starters (Lebanon Kansas)....or, how about regional capitals...Let the those damn big city Yankees turn their lives into a big government, gun free, soda free, smokeless tobacco free, utopia and out there we'll just keep it simple. And as for the Kalifornians, well, maybe the wall should just go a little farther north. I don't mind that the Kalifornians and the New Yorkers want what they want...that's their business. Just when they think their business should be my business is when I say enough.

Term limits; session limits; stipend and salary limits, residency limits all need to be put in place to ensure that going to the capital isn't a ticket to wealth. When the richest neighborhoods in the country are in the political capital, there is a fundamental problem with government. Congressmen and women should have to stay in a Residence Inn for $89 a night (max); drink bad hotel coffee and travel on Amtrac, fly coach (on Frontier Air no less :-) ) or drive everywhere they go. No session should last more than 6 months; and any new Federal law should require a 2/3 majority...we have enough damn federal laws to last until the end of time. Eliminate 50% of the Federal agencies; we did without most of them for most of our existence as a nation; we could do it again. They don't work anyway...

I applaud my neighbors across the Atlantic and wish them my best....I enjoyed living in their country when I was fortunate enough to do so....I spoke their language their way, used their terms so I would be understood (boot, lift, lorry, etc.), drove on the "wrong" side of the rode), assimilated to their customs (though I still have trouble with blood pudding; but my boys did like it though), observed their traditions and holidays....and they came to my house for the 4th of July party....They are a great, warm people. They deserved better than what they were getting. You can have a common market and economic cooperation; without having a common political system....that is how the whole thing started anyway....the current political leviathan,and everything that attends that, was just out of control and did not operate in Britain's interest...and after all, a nation must ultimately act in it's own interest or it is not a nation.

[TexasTiger 12,853]

There are good reasons for thinking negotiating trade with the UK may not be an immediate priority:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/out-of-luck

[homersapien 11,371]

It's not really about economics, it's just good old fashioned bigotry and xenophobia.

Coming to a US election near you.

http://www.salon.com...mic_insecurity/

Trump and Brexit: Right-wing populism of the two is rooted more in base nationalism than in economic insecurity

....In both the U.S. and the U.K., a lot of digital ink is being spilled analyzing the rise of right wing anti-immigrant populism. There are two general arguments over its cause. One is the economic argument: Our changing economy, coupled with the damage done by free trade and declining government investments in infrastructure and social services, causes skyrocketing economic anxiety, especially in areas outside of urban centers. This, in turn, causes people to look for villains to blame, and they settle on blaming immigrants, people of color, and liberal urban “elites”.

The other is a culture war argument: The right wing populists are petty, resentful people who dislike change, and their hatred of immigrants, feminists, and urbane people generally is neither complex nor particularly tied to economic insecurity. They’re just small-minded and ugly to anyone that isn’t like them.

This is an admittedly over-simplified take on the issue. Most people — I count myself amongst them — who closely follow the rise of right-wing populism would argue that it’s some combination of these two factors. It would be foolish to pretend that racist white people are okay with darker-skinned people sharing in the bounty if the economy were more robust. But it’s also foolish to deny that it becomes much easier for a racist to feel justified in blaming the immigrants for all their problems if the quality of local social services is in decline.....

.....Still, it matters how much this kind of right-wing populism is due to cultural resentments vs. economic anxieties. Many on the left see the high levels of opposition to free trade among Trump supporters or Leave voters and optimistically conclude that this provides a way to ameliorate their ugliness and hate. If their nastiness really is a reaction to economic anxiety, after all, there are options here. Perhaps they can be educated about a more liberal path towards their economic goals. Perhaps a return to more robust social spending or more restrictive trade policies will help restore economic health to their communities, reducing their anger and hatred.

But if this kind of right-wing populism is rooted in hate, and the economic stuff is just slathered on top, then it makes it much harder to conceive of a solution to this problem. If people hate immigrants and urban “elites” not because they are reacting poorly to economic insecurity, but just because they really don’t like difference, there’s not much you can do about that.

Unfortunately, there’s a significant amount of evidence that right-wing populism is rooted more in plain old small-minded bigotry than it is a form of economic anxiety that simply expresses itself in nationalist, bigoted terms.

In Great Britain, voters were continually warned that a vote for Leave was a vote for economic devastation. Yes, a lot of people rationalized that away, accusing the Remain folks of fear-mongering. But people who are truly worried about their economic status would probably hesitate more to gamble with the future this way. Instead, as Nate Silver at FiveThirtyEight showed, “As compared with most Americans, Trump’s voters are better off.” Not by a small amount, either. The average Trump household draws a median income of $72,000, which is $16,000 more a year than the average American household. Both Clinton and Sanders supporters have a median household income of $61,000.

None of this means that liberals should abandon the cause of economic justice, better trade regulation, stronger unions, or more robust social spending. These things are good in and of themselves, and help stabilize the economy and the lives of people across the demographic and political spectrum.

But we should let go of the hope that liberal economic policies will do much to end nationalism and racism. God knows American red states, which keep electing Republicans who impose austerity measures so serious that it’s causing their governments and school systems to collapse, proves the point. A lot of right-wingers would rather burn their own homes to the ground rather than share them fairly with people of color. I wish I had an answer to that problem, but if the threat of economic devastation doesn’t change their minds, apparently nothing will.

Read the unedited version at: http://www.salon.com...mic_insecurity/

Good lord, another Salon tome...lots of emotion, state the same point over and over for 10,000 words, no facts, a couple of anecdotes, if you disagree with me you are a danger to humankind, and sum it all up with there are only a select few of us are smart enough to give direction to those dumb tax paying, bible totin, gun ownin Americans...ah yes, it wouldn't be Friday without one...

I was thinking of you when I posted.

[homersapien 11,371]

Your outsized hatred of Obama leads you to blame him for Brexit which no rational, thinking, sane person does. You can't comprehend the why here. It's truly pathetic to think Obama played any meaningful role in the decision making process of the British public. They have their own history, culture, politics and reasons that have nothing to do with those you sit around stewing hate over.

No one BLAMED him for Brexit. I know you have the warm feels for Barry, but look past your Agitator in Chief mania and look at what he did, what he said, and then put that in context with how the people voted.

He ( and Hillary ) , once again, ended up on the wrong side of history. Obama backed Remain. He ACTIVELY tried to get Netanyahu out, and failed. The ridiculous ' RESET ' effort by he and Hillary was a joke. Oh yeah, then Libya. Took a compliant , albeit nut case leader in Gaddafi , and collapsed that country, got a US Amb. killed, and then lied about it...

But you'll gladly ignore ALL that and just reply with ' hate ', and act as if you've won some gorram moral 1st place prize for being awesome.

Nah, you just hung it on him to gloat. Weasel.

You can deny it all you want, but it's clearly out there for all to see. TT is spot on.

[homersapien 11,371]

Sit down when chewing gum, Texas. Don't tax your brain.

Dealing with you taxes my soul.

That's more of a YOU problem than anything.

Nothing I said here can be disputed, factually, What has you all frownie faced is that I'm just pointing out the facts. The details which apparently the MSM , for SOME odd reason, won't relay to the general public. Oh, but you can sure bet, if there was a Republican in the WH, we'd hear all about it.

Everyone knows Obama opposed Brexit. As did the political establishment everywhere, including the leadership of the Tories and Labour. So what? You and others pound your chest like your side won the Super Bowl. This is a complex political issue with valid arguments on both sides. I have no strong position on it, but watching the reaction of guys like you is at the same time humorous and sad.

And Brexit is hardly good for the US.

This reminds me of what happens after bad economic news. The Obama haters celebrate it and gloat because they care more about harming him than they do for the country.

[homersapien 11,371]

I have no strong position on it, but watching the reaction of guys like you is at the same time humorous and sad.

So, on principle, if I cheer for it, you hate it ? Is that what you're basically trying to say?

There's so much here you don't bother with understanding, and then when you see others having a certain reaction, you just instinctively get annoyed when " our side " , what ever that may mean, celebrates ?

Yes, the "establishment" , the leaders of both Tories and Labour parties were for it, but not the rank and file members.

I see a majority of citizens , regardless of political stripes, send a clear message to their " leadership " that they no longer are impressed w/ the overly bureaucratic nonsense and being ruled by unaccountable officials in a foreign land , telling them how to run their lives.

I'll side w/ freedom more times than not, and if that has your boxers in a bunch, so what ?

I do find it curious that the Left in Scotland are now so eager to leave Britain, just so they can jump right in and be a part of the EU. Trade one master for another one ? Seems stupid to me, but their choice. More power to 'em.

The "Left" in Scotland?

So, it's the "Right" who demanded their "liberty" by leaving the EU, but it's the "Left" in Scotland who demands their liberty to leave Britain?

Must everything be reduced to Right vs Left? How exactly do you determine which side is which?

You are a hoot, albeit an entertaining one..

[homersapien 11,371]

Your outsized hatred of Obama leads you to blame him for Brexit which no rational, thinking, sane person does. You can't comprehend the why here. It's truly pathetic to think Obama played any meaningful role in the decision making process of the British public. They have their own history, culture, politics and reasons that have nothing to do with those you sit around stewing hate over.

No one BLAMED him for Brexit. I know you have the warm feels for Barry, but look past your Agitator in Chief mania and look at what he did, what he said, and then put that in context with how the people voted.

He ( and Hillary ) , once again, ended up on the wrong side of history. Obama backed Remain. He ACTIVELY tried to get Netanyahu out, and failed. The ridiculous ' RESET ' effort by he and Hillary was a joke. Oh yeah, then Libya. Took a compliant , albeit nut case leader in Gaddafi , and collapsed that country, got a US Amb. killed, and then lied about it...

But you'll gladly ignore ALL that and just reply with ' hate ', and act as if you've won some gorram moral 1st place prize for being awesome.

You make every thread about those you hate, relevance be damned. Pathetic.

And that post was an excellent example.

Obama was right to oppose Brexit. It's not in our interest.

Britain provided us at least a little leverage with the EU. Now we won't even have "ears at the EU table" as I heard it put.

[TexasTiger 12,853]

Your outsized hatred of Obama leads you to blame him for Brexit which no rational, thinking, sane person does. You can't comprehend the why here. It's truly pathetic to think Obama played any meaningful role in the decision making process of the British public. They have their own history, culture, politics and reasons that have nothing to do with those you sit around stewing hate over.

No one BLAMED him for Brexit. I know you have the warm feels for Barry, but look past your Agitator in Chief mania and look at what he did, what he said, and then put that in context with how the people voted.

He ( and Hillary ) , once again, ended up on the wrong side of history. Obama backed Remain. He ACTIVELY tried to get Netanyahu out, and failed. The ridiculous ' RESET ' effort by he and Hillary was a joke. Oh yeah, then Libya. Took a compliant , albeit nut case leader in Gaddafi , and collapsed that country, got a US Amb. killed, and then lied about it...

But you'll gladly ignore ALL that and just reply with ' hate ', and act as if you've won some gorram moral 1st place prize for being awesome.

You make every thread about those you hate, relevance be damned. Pathetic.

And that post was an excellent example.

Obama was right to oppose Brexit. It's not in our interest.

Britain provided us at least a little leverage with the EU. Now we won't even have "ears at the EU table" as I heard it put.

This. Leave/stay, that's up to them. The role of the us president is to represent our interests.

[AURaptor 1,122]

And that post was an excellent example.

Obama was right to oppose Brexit. It's not in our interest.

Britain provided us at least a little leverage with the EU. Now we won't even have "ears at the EU table" as I heard it put.

BS. It's not HIS part to say anything, one way or the other.

And Obama has HUGE ears.

[TexasTiger 12,853]

And that post was an excellent example.

Obama was right to oppose Brexit. It's not in our interest.

Britain provided us at least a little leverage with the EU. Now we won't even have "ears at the EU table" as I heard it put.

BS. It's not HIS part to say anything, one way or the other.

And Obama has HUGE ears. :laugh:/>

Raptor on the record for asserting the US president has no business asserting US interests abroad. Unless it's a Republican.

[AURaptor 1,122]

The "Left" in Scotland?

So, it's the "Right" who demanded their "liberty" by leaving the EU, but it's the "Left" in Scotland who demands their liberty to leave Britain?

Must everything be reduced to Right vs Left? How exactly do you determine which side is which?

You are a hoot, albeit an entertaining one..

I'll confess to not being anything close to an expert on politics across the pond, but I do have a some idea. You, on the other hand, are with out ANY clue, and simply react out of impulse, on whether something makes Obama look good or bad. HE of course is right, so if he wanted Britain to stay, they needed to stay. Screw what the actual citizens in that country want !

As for Right vs Left, here it didn't matter. The " establishment " on both sides wanted to stay in. The PEOPLE chose otherwise.

[AURaptor 1,122]

Raptor on the record for asserting the US president has no business asserting US interests abroad. Unless it's a Republican.

I'm on record for accurately stating that OUR President has no damn business telling the people of another country how to vote.

Like he did here, and like he did in Israel. Praise Be Unto Jefferson that Obama lost , on both accounts.

[TexasTiger 12,853]

Raptor on the record for asserting the US president has no business asserting US interests abroad. Unless it's a Republican.

I'm on record for accurately stating that OUR President has no damn business telling the people of another country how to vote.

Like he did here, and like he did in Israel. Praise Be Unto Jefferson that Obama lost , on both accounts.

Link to him telling them how to vote. That's your delusional hatred speaking.