And the 2020 winner is ... dangerous distrust

[homersapien 11,377]

1 hour ago, TexasTiger said:

For the first 10-15 years I on this forum, Titan and I were on opposing sides of most issues. The conversation was often spirited, but usually respectful. I don’t think either of us have changed dramatically in our politics. I will say that the level of discourse from the “right” was much more substantive in regard to policy differences than it has been for the last 4+ years. I miss real policy discussions with folks genuinely interested in solving problems.

This ^

 

[TitanTiger 20,483]

5 minutes ago, wdefromtx said:

Makes sense, but I am sure other folks on here would like to know the answer to my question.

No, I don't go searching through messages.  And even if I could, I wouldn't call someone out on a public board for something only mentioned in private.  Hell, I wouldn't do that even if it was in private and said directly to me (so long as they don't bring it to the public boards themselves). 

I literally called him out because he was claiming one thing on the public boards while something completely different was happening in a private message several of us were part of, including him.

[homersapien 11,377]

1 hour ago, I_M4_AU said:

It’s good to know the private messages are not that private.  I will keep that in mind the next time I venture into that arena.  The fact that you believe my opinion was *corrected* shows opinions are not valued.  I explained my position on the subject, both dub and you rejected that opinion, it doesn’t mean I was incorrect.  Dub rejects anything that does not agree with his narrow view of life.

Just to clarify, are you suggesting - in this case - that a 14 year-old girl should be held accountable for encouraging or allowing sexual abuse?

[McLoofus 35,182]

1 hour ago, wdefromtx said:

You get facepalmed on here for telling it how it is. Lmao 

No, you get facepalmed for mistaking your own opinions for "how it is". 

[wdefromtx 3,159]

I wish some of y'all would just step back and look from a distance and take off the party hats. Maybe then you would see that both sides are practically griping about the same thing. The problem is, both sides are hell bent on thinking they are right and won't even entertain the notion of hearing what the other side has to say. This goes beyond Trump, you can take him out of the equation and say he never was president and both sides would still be arguing like a bunch of fools. And it is not just limited to the US, look at the UK and many other countries. 

 

Also, even when one agrees that maybe their party of choice has some faults they have to qualify it by saying something like the other side is worse. Ok, if the other side is worse then ask yourself "how can we help them because it will help us as well?" Instead of playing the blame game. We all are Americans and we all really should be on the same team, I think for the most part we are. Just because someone has a differing view doesn't always mean that person is wrong and you right, or vice-versa. 

 

It also seems that having this viewpoint that both sides need to look themselves in the mirror is frowned on by some here. 

[wdefromtx 3,159]

9 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

No, you get facepalmed for mistaking your own opinions for "how it is". 

Well, I am pretty sure many feel the exact same way I do. Why would some even want to engage with others on here the way some act? Nothing Bird said was untrue, hell I have been saying it about both sides for awhile now. Some just take offense to it more easily when they are called out for what they are. 

[homersapien 11,377]

7 hours ago, bigbird said:

I take full responsibility for my post and stand by it. Look around there was only one person having a meltdown and it sure as hell wasn't me. I guess it's only okay to generalize half the country if you are left leaning.  It's routinely done here and nothing is said. You should recognize it,  you're one of the biggest perpetrators.

And if I'm starting to sound crazy then maybe you and others will finally start to comprehend what's being said. Lucid and logical have clearly confused y'all for a while.

I don't have a problem making generalizations when they are valid and based on objective evidence. 

Almost half the electorate voted for Trump and over 70% of them think Biden won only because it was a "rigged" election.  Both of those facts speak for themselves.

In fact, here's a good generalization of Biden voters - based on data - which I endorse:

 

"Biden voters generally know we are in the middle of a deadly pandemic and anxiously await a vaccine. However, they understand social distancing and mask-wearing are by far the best ways to keep themselves and their families safe. They listen to Anthony S. Fauci and other experts and do not buy into quack cures.

Most Biden voters have opened their eyes to enduring, pervasive racism. They believe America is a good and decent country, but not faultless. They understand that we are forever in the process of making “a more perfect” nation. They understand that racism does not merely emanate from venom-spouting neo-Nazis but can be embedded in institutions that solidify and perpetuate historic injustice. There is a reason huge gaps between Blacks and Whites persist in wealth, longevity, education, policing and most every facet of American life. They understand that we do not live in a zero-sum world in which addressing these historic inequities means “taking” something from other groups.

On immigration, most Biden voters do not favor “open borders,” but they understand that a wall between Mexico and the United States is utterly ineffective and a colossal waste of money. They understand that we need immigrants at all levels of the economy, because they will help fund our retirement programs, start new businesses, buy homes and become entrepreneurs and innovators. They recognize there is scant evidence that immigrants displace native-born workers, and that their negative impact on wages is minimal and generally limited to those without a high school diploma.

In addition, Biden voters seem to want the benefits of a capitalistic economy, but with restraints and regulations. They understand that everything from environmental protections to child labor laws impinge on free markets, but they desire these interventions as necessary for a humane, livable society. They know government cannot make us all economically equal, but they do think government should stop increasing the gap between rich and poor. They want affordable health care, access to higher education for those who want it and wider prosperity.

More generally, most Biden voters think government is there to solve problems, not to define their identities or to extract revenge for perceived slights. They know that government is imperfect but nevertheless can make major improvements in the lives of Americans. They want competent officials, just like they want competent teachers and doctors. They know the difference between a middle-of-the-road Democrat and a “socialist.” They know Confederate flags represent the rebellion against the United States for the purpose of securing slavery. They believe in the sanctity of elections and have seen no evidence of fraud, let alone pervasive fraud in the 2020 elections. They do not want to cringe when the U.S. president speaks or tweets.

If all this seems utterly ordinary, one might now go back and understand that the hardcore MAGA crowd disagrees with or cheerfully embraces ignorance about much of this. They are anti-mask, pro-wall and climate-change deniers. They prefer unprovable conspiracy theories to fact-based arguments and allow Trump to say that the death toll is a success in fighting covid-19. They are convinced the election was stolen and that the deep state perpetrated the “Russia hoax.” They seek to express racial grievances and tribalism through government while also thinking racism is practically nonexistent. They want to go back to an era when they imagine White Christians ruled the roost and most Americans looked like them.

Bridging the gap between Biden and MAGA enthusiasts won’t be possible so long as the latter hew to myths, prejudices, conspiracies and flat-out lies. They might want to reflect on whether their anger-driven approach to politics really inures to their benefit. But in the meantime, back on Earth, 80 million Biden voters (and those Trump voters outside the MAGA cult) would like to get back to the business of solving national problems, running a responsible government and modeling American values."

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/11/30/time-understand-biden-voter/

[TexasTiger 12,895]

4 minutes ago, wdefromtx said:

I wish some of y'all would just step back and look from a distance and take off the party hats. Maybe then you would see that both sides are practically griping about the same thing. The problem is, both sides are hell bent on thinking they are right and won't even entertain the notion of hearing what the other side has to say. This goes beyond Trump, you can take him out of the equation and say he never was president and both sides would still be arguing like a bunch of fools. And it is not just limited to the US, look at the UK and many other countries. 

 

Also, even when one agrees that maybe their party of choice has some faults they have to qualify it by saying something like the other side is worse. Ok, if the other side is worse then ask yourself "how can we help them because it will help us as well?" Instead of playing the blame game. We all are Americans and we all really should be on the same team, I think for the most part we are. Just because someone has a differing view doesn't always mean that person is wrong and you right, or vice-versa. 

 

It also seems that having this viewpoint that both sides need to look themselves in the mirror is frowned on by some here. 

I think all sides need to reflect on behavior and messaging. The Dems are doing a terrible job reaching rural America and faulting the customer is counterproductive. That said, the most animating message on the right for the past several years appears to be to “own the libs.” Trump’s greatest motivation was to undo Obama, and that was lapped up regardless of issue— even when it came to long-term allies. If Hunter Biden is your closing message, you don’t stand for much.

[McLoofus 35,182]

3 minutes ago, wdefromtx said:

Nothing Bird said was untrue, hell I have been saying it about both sides for awhile now.

 

18 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

No, you get facepalmed for mistaking your own opinions for "how it is". 

 

[homersapien 11,377]

8 hours ago, bigbird said:

I take full responsibility for my post and stand by it. Look around there was only one person having a meltdown and it sure as hell wasn't me. I guess it's only okay to generalize half the country if you are left leaning.  It's routinely done here and nothing is said. You should recognize it,  you're one of the biggest perpetrators.

And if I'm starting to sound crazy then maybe you and others will finally start to comprehend what's being said. Lucid and logical have clearly confused y'all for a while.

And considering there was nothing "lucid or logical" in your (first) post, I wouldn't be highlighting that as something the other side has a problem with.

 

[wdefromtx 3,159]

2 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

I think all sides need to reflect on behavior and messaging. The Dems are doing a terrible job reaching rural America and faulting the customer is counterproductive. That said, the most animating message on the right for the past several years appears to be to “own the libs.” Trump’s greatest motivation was to undo Obama, and that was lapped up regardless of issue— even when it came to long-term allies. If Hunter Biden is your closing message, you don’t stand for much.

I'm not even talking about the politicians themselves, I am talking about the constituents themselves. 

 

You can't fix the politicians until you fix how both parties (everyday people) act towards each other. Look at this board. Then you work on getting out the leeches in Washington. 

[McLoofus 35,182]

7 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Almost half the electorate voted for Trump and over 70% of them think Biden won only because it was a "rigged" election. 

I feel like this keeps getting ignored. 

And I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that it would be the same were the shoe on the other foot. One must keep in mind that this is a self-fulfilling prophecy after trump spent so much time sewing distrust in the electoral process well before election day.  He very intentionally created this exact scenario and made no effort to hide it. There is absolutely no legitimate reason to suggest that Biden voters would have reacted the same way. 

Now, Democrats in Georgia absolutely do question Brian Kemp purging voter rolls in Georgia as Secretary of State, while running for governor.... 

[homersapien 11,377]

1 minute ago, wdefromtx said:

I'm not even talking about the politicians themselves, I am talking about the constituents themselves. 

 

You can't fix the politicians until you fix how both parties (everyday people) act towards each other. Look at this board. Then you work on getting out the leeches in Washington. 

No, it starts at the top.

It's not solely Trump, but Trump has played to the worst instincts and "values" of the country from the very beginning.  Getting rid of him as our "leader" is the essential first step.

And I don't know exactly what you mean by "leeches" but Republicans are now 'all in' for the cynical acquisition and abuse of power.  Just wait, if they retain the Senate and you will see exactly what I mean.

[wdefromtx 3,159]

10 minutes ago, homersapien said:

I don't have a problem making generalizations when they are valid and based on objective evidence. 

Almost half the electorate voted for Trump and over 70% of them think Biden won only because it was a "rigged" election.  Both of those facts speak for themselves.

In fact, here's a good generalization of Biden voters - based on data - which I endorse:

 

"Biden voters generally know we are in the middle of a deadly pandemic and anxiously await a vaccine. However, they understand social distancing and mask-wearing are by far the best ways to keep themselves and their families safe. They listen to Anthony S. Fauci and other experts and do not buy into quack cures.

Most Biden voters have opened their eyes to enduring, pervasive racism. They believe America is a good and decent country, but not faultless. They understand that we are forever in the process of making “a more perfect” nation. They understand that racism does not merely emanate from venom-spouting neo-Nazis but can be embedded in institutions that solidify and perpetuate historic injustice. There is a reason huge gaps between Blacks and Whites persist in wealth, longevity, education, policing and most every facet of American life. They understand that we do not live in a zero-sum world in which addressing these historic inequities means “taking” something from other groups.

On immigration, most Biden voters do not favor “open borders,” but they understand that a wall between Mexico and the United States is utterly ineffective and a colossal waste of money. They understand that we need immigrants at all levels of the economy, because they will help fund our retirement programs, start new businesses, buy homes and become entrepreneurs and innovators. They recognize there is scant evidence that immigrants displace native-born workers, and that their negative impact on wages is minimal and generally limited to those without a high school diploma.

In addition, Biden voters seem to want the benefits of a capitalistic economy, but with restraints and regulations. They understand that everything from environmental protections to child labor laws impinge on free markets, but they desire these interventions as necessary for a humane, livable society. They know government cannot make us all economically equal, but they do think government should stop increasing the gap between rich and poor. They want affordable health care, access to higher education for those who want it and wider prosperity.

More generally, most Biden voters think government is there to solve problems, not to define their identities or to extract revenge for perceived slights. They know that government is imperfect but nevertheless can make major improvements in the lives of Americans. They want competent officials, just like they want competent teachers and doctors. They know the difference between a middle-of-the-road Democrat and a “socialist.” They know Confederate flags represent the rebellion against the United States for the purpose of securing slavery. They believe in the sanctity of elections and have seen no evidence of fraud, let alone pervasive fraud in the 2020 elections. They do not want to cringe when the U.S. president speaks or tweets.

If all this seems utterly ordinary, one might now go back and understand that the hardcore MAGA crowd disagrees with or cheerfully embraces ignorance about much of this. They are anti-mask, pro-wall and climate-change deniers. They prefer unprovable conspiracy theories to fact-based arguments and allow Trump to say that the death toll is a success in fighting covid-19. They are convinced the election was stolen and that the deep state perpetrated the “Russia hoax.” They seek to express racial grievances and tribalism through government while also thinking racism is practically nonexistent. They want to go back to an era when they imagine White Christians ruled the roost and most Americans looked like them.

Bridging the gap between Biden and MAGA enthusiasts won’t be possible so long as the latter hew to myths, prejudices, conspiracies and flat-out lies. They might want to reflect on whether their anger-driven approach to politics really inures to their benefit. But in the meantime, back on Earth, 80 million Biden voters (and those Trump voters outside the MAGA cult) would like to get back to the business of solving national problems, running a responsible government and modeling American values."

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/11/30/time-understand-biden-voter/

Got a link to those facts? I mean isn't half the reason for this thread because people were just throwing stuff out there? Even if it is true, that tells you more about the state of our government and politicians we've had for that many people to feel that way. Those people felt that way before Trump and he just played off it. Whatever that reason they felt is the bigger issue and needs to be dealt with.

[wdefromtx 3,159]

3 minutes ago, homersapien said:

No, it starts at the top.

It's not solely Trump, but Trump has played to the worst instincts and "values" of the country from the very beginning.  Getting rid of him as our "leader" is the essential first step.

And I don't know exactly what you mean by "leeches" but Republicans are now 'all in' for the cynical acquisition and abuse of power.  Just wait, if they retain the Senate and you will see exactly what I mean.

By leeches I am talking about all the politicians that are making bank at the expense of the people. Amongst other things. You know, like all those Democrats that pander to everyone and act like they are for the people and throw out ideas and policies that look good on paper so they claim the high road when in reality means nothing. 

[homersapien 11,377]

22 minutes ago, wdefromtx said:

Got a link to those facts? I mean isn't half the reason for this thread because people were just throwing stuff out there? Even if it is true, that tells you more about the state of our government and politicians we've had for that many people to feel that way. Those people felt that way before Trump and he just played off it. Whatever that reason they felt is the bigger issue and needs to be dealt with.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/nov/10/election-trust-polling-study-republicans

I disagree.  It isn't logical to assume that many voters would believe the election was rigged without Trump's incessant repetition of the lie.  (That's exactly why you hear the word "cult" associating with the MAGA movement.)

Hell, Trump fired the CISA director simply because he stood up and told the truth:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/politics/highlights-from-chris-krebss-60-minutes-interview/2020/11/30/46d8abe5-744e-4edf-ab30-64e0a9d6ff4d_video.html

Things won't change in this country until more MAGAs learn to recognize who and what Trump is.  You are apparently part of the problem.

 

[McLoofus 35,182]

20 minutes ago, wdefromtx said:

Got a link to those facts? I mean isn't half the reason for this thread because people were just throwing stuff out there? Even if it is true, that tells you more about the state of our government and politicians we've had for that many people to feel that way. Those people felt that way before Trump and he just played off it. Whatever that reason they felt is the bigger issue and needs to be dealt with.

I posted links to that research in direct response to you the other day. 

Your "but both sides" crusade does as much to diminish the level of discourse as anything anyone else is saying.  In this case, because it is patently, willfully, and demonstrably ignorant. 

[homersapien 11,377]

2 minutes ago, wdefromtx said:

By leeches I am talking about all the politicians that are making bank at the expense of the people. Amongst other things. You know, like all those Democrats that pander to everyone and act like they are for the people and throw out ideas and policies that look good on paper so they claim the high road when in reality means nothing. 

Got specific examples?

I've got an example of "reality" for you: 

Democrats are pushing for an immediate pandemic economic relief package. 

Meanwhile Munchen is trying to "clawback" $429 billion in "CARES" funds before Biden takes office. (Undoubtedly he will cite the deficit, which is only an issue when Democrats are in power.)

If he remains speaker, McConnell will block any major relief bill proposed, no matter how needed.  He would just as soon see a huge number of Americans suffer on the assumption it might help Republicans in the mid-term.

 

[McLoofus 35,182]

3 minutes ago, homersapien said:

If he remains speaker, McConnell will block any major relief bill proposed, no matter how needed.  He would just as soon see a huge number of Americans suffer on the assumption it might help Republicans in the mid-term.

Not this Mitch McConnell, surely?

 

[McLoofus 35,182]

31 minutes ago, wdefromtx said:

Got a link to those facts?

Here ya go. This is where I provided it directly to you on Wednesday. It lists several polls finding basically the same thing, and compares them to 2016, when Democrats were much more accepting of the loss. I guess you just didn't read it?

 

[I_M4_AU 7,843]

2 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

You forfeited the right for them to remain private when you mischaracterized why you got jumped on over the subject

Are we making up rules now, Mr Administrator?  This is complete BS.  Your exposure of a private conversation was to expose your dislike for my opinions. You could have left it with I was called a *bad* person because of what I said in the PM without referencing any part of the conversation.

You owe this whole forum an explanation and me an apology.  I doubt I get one.  There was four other people on that PM and you are the only one low enough to reference what was said.

[I_M4_AU 7,843]

1 hour ago, homersapien said:

Just to clarify, are you suggesting - in this case - that a 14 year-old girl should be held accountable for encouraging or allowing sexual abuse?

It was a private conversation and should not have been shared.  @TitanTiger

[wdefromtx 3,159]

1 minute ago, homersapien said:

Got specific examples?

I've got an example of "reality" for you: 

Democrats are pushing for an immediate pandemic economic relief package. 

Meanwhile Munchen is trying to "clawback" $429 billion in "CARES" funds before Biden takes office. (Undoubtedly he will cite the deficit, which is only an issue when Democrats are in power.)

If he remains speaker, McConnell will block any major relief bill proposed, no matter how needed.  He would just as soon see a huge number of Americans suffer on the assumption it might help Republicans in the mid-term.

 

We've discussed the whole natural gas and fracturing and how Biden wants to get stop both (he's flip flopped on this so I don't know where he stands now, but he has previously wanted to ban it). Sounds great on paper to say the US is stopping the use of fossil fuels but in reality does no good if China and India for example don't make changes as well. If you really want to address global warming you need US companies to foster the newer technology in other countries. Do we need to have cleaner resources, of course. The US could be all electric right now and we'd still have many other countries polluting like crazy. But they have been saying this for years and haven't banned it, but it keeps the votes coming in so I guess ride that horse as long as you can. 

That is just one example, if you want to talk about raising the taxes on the rich only we can. At the same time we can also talk about our tax code that basically negates those raised taxes. But hey, tax the rich gets you votes so ride that horse as long as you can. Then there is ACA, which was crammed through so they could say "look we addressed healthcare." For every person it helped, it screwed over almost as many. You like it because you were on the good end of things with it. 

 

The R's have many hollow promises as well and their political footballs as well.

 

This second part is interesting and highlights part of the problem with how people think. You clearly think that it is only the Republicans fault for us not having another relief package. I am sure if I asked a hardcore conservative they would blame it all on the Dem's and Pelosi. If either side really cared about the general population they would have already had an agreement.  Both sides never really had any intention on doing anything. And there's Munchkin, which I am sure he's doing what trump told him to do since he is pouting.

 

You are just as brainwashed by the left as a MAGA is by trump.  You mirror how our politicians act which is only to blame the other side or say "but, the other side is worse."

[TitanTiger 20,483]

8 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

Are we making up rules now, Mr Administrator?  This is complete BS.  Your exposure of a private conversation was to expose your dislike for my opinions. You could have left it with I was called a *bad* person because of what I said in the PM without referencing any part of the conversation.

You owe this whole forum an explanation and me an apology.  I doubt I get one.  There was four other people on that PM and you are the only one low enough to reference what was said.

You're damn right you're not getting one.  You lied about why you got called out when you knew better.  When you chose that path on a public forum, you're the one that opened up the private message to public evaluation.

[I_M4_AU 7,843]

2 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

You're damn right you're not getting one.  You lied about why you got called out when you knew better.  When you chose that path on a public forum, you're the one that opened up the private message to public evaluation.

It must me great to answer to no one.  You are a pompous a$$.