What Biden’s Done Right with Ukraine

[autigeremt 6,641]

I don't have a problem with what is being done in the moment. My issue has been with our position concerning Russia and Putin for years. Putin was going to be an issue at some point and we didn't prepare very well for it during that time. Trump, Biden, Obama, Bush.....Clinton.  

I like America first.....but that doesn't mean we can't play well with others at the same time. 

Edited February 28, 2022 by autigeremt

[icanthearyou 4,463]

30 minutes ago, autigeremt said:

I don't have a problem with what is being done in the moment. My issue has been with our position concerning Russia and Putin for years. Putin was going to be an issue at some point and we didn't prepare very well for it during that time. Trump, Biden, Obama, Bush.....Clinton.  

I like America first.....but that doesn't mean we can't play well with others at the same time. 

I like America first if, it means America's principles of democracy and fair trade.  If it means being selfish and indifferent, no.

My fear is that the Presidents you listed were unduly influenced by capitalists who's only interest was greed.

Trump squandered a golden opportunity.  He could have done what no Democrat can do.  He could have made real structural reforms without anyone screaming socialism.   He had a lot of unconditional support and therefore, a lot of power.  He truly could have been a transformational President.  No Democrat has had that kind of power since FDR.

We need a President with the ability to challenge the capitalists without destroying them.

[TexasTiger 12,947]

Few folks appreciate the power of leadership that doesn’t involve beating one’s chest and screaming, but it can work:

[SaltyTiger 7,816]

29 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Few folks appreciate the power of leadership that doesn’t involve beating one’s chest and screaming, but it can work:

How much time “to think”? No serious complaints with Biden yet but this type of thing is funny.

[TexasTiger 12,947]

17 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

How much time “to think”? No serious complaints with Biden yet but this type of thing is funny.

Apparently it didn’t take long, but realistically it’s their choice. I think it’s about feeling respected, not pressured. Treated like a partner, not an underling.

[autigeremt 6,641]

2 hours ago, icanthearyou said:

I like America first if, it means America's principles of democracy and fair trade.  If it means being selfish and indifferent, no.

My fear is that the Presidents you listed were unduly influenced by capitalists who's only interest was greed.

Trump squandered a golden opportunity.  He could have done what no Democrat can do.  He could have made real structural reforms without anyone screaming socialism.   He had a lot of unconditional support and therefore, a lot of power.  He truly could have been a transformational President.  No Democrat has had that kind of power since FDR.

We need a President with the ability to challenge the capitalists without destroying them.

Agreed. One of many reasons I hated Trump as President. Wasted opportunity. 

[Grumps 3,704]

4 hours ago, icanthearyou said:

I like America first if, it means America's principles of democracy and fair trade.  If it means being selfish and indifferent, no.

My fear is that the Presidents you listed were unduly influenced by capitalists who's only interest was greed.

Trump squandered a golden opportunity.  He could have done what no Democrat can do.  He could have made real structural reforms without anyone screaming socialism.   He had a lot of unconditional support and therefore, a lot of power.  He truly could have been a transformational President.  No Democrat has had that kind of power since FDR.

We need a President with the ability to challenge the capitalists without destroying them.

I agree with you. But I don't think that capitalism is any more corrupted by greed than are the other "isms".

[kennypowers 1,431]

On 2/26/2022 at 7:13 PM, TexasTiger said:

The oversimplified critique is that Putin invaded Ukraine on Biden’s watch so he must be to blame or it wouldn’t have happened had Trump been if office. Of course, there’s no evidence it wouldn’t happen if Trump had been in office. There’s ample evidence that had Trump been in office the coordinated NATO response on arms support and financial sanctions would have been far less. Trump thumped NATO at every turn— he wanted out off NATO. Told Esper that would happen in his second term.

It’s too soon to know how this all plays out. But critics aside, the degree of unity amongst NATO at this stage is stronger than we’ve had much reason to anticipate for years. This is not a USA v Russia matter. It’s Putin v the Free World and that’s what makes it so costly for him whether he topples Kyiv in the short term or not. Biden gets this and has worked it about as well as we could expect any President to do.

Hell, trump probably would have sent Russia aid and weapons.

[jj3jordan 2,053]

5 minutes ago, kennypowers said:

Hell, trump probably would have sent Russia aid and weapons.

What a clueless idiotic comment.

[kennypowers 1,431]

12 minutes ago, jj3jordan said:

What a clueless idiotic comment.

So, the man thinks Putin's actions are genius, and you doubt he would help Putin if he were still squatting in office?  Ok.

[CoffeeTiger 5,113]

58 minutes ago, kennypowers said:

So, the man thinks Putin's actions are genius, and you doubt he would help Putin if he were still squatting in office?  Ok.

Edited March 1, 2022 by CoffeeTiger

[icanthearyou 4,463]

12 hours ago, Grumps said:

I agree with you. But I don't think that capitalism is any more corrupted by greed than are the other "isms".

Agree.  The corrupting force is the ability to buy the government,,, from legislation to regulation, to enforcement.

[jj3jordan 2,053]

1 hour ago, kennypowers said:

So, the man thinks Putin's actions are genius, and you doubt he would help Putin if he were still squatting in office?  Ok.

The man's strategic plan for invading Ukraine was smart. I think Trump was using the word 'genius' to contrast Putin, or any other normal person, to Biden. The bar is low.  So no, only an idiot would think any american president would help Putin or any president of russia with anything.  If you believe that then you and Biden are comparable mentally.

[GoAU 1,600]

1 hour ago, kennypowers said:

So, the man thinks Putin's actions are genius, and you doubt he would help Putin if he were still squatting in office?  Ok.

So Trump pointing out that Europe was becoming too dependent on Russian oil, and that many NATO countries were not meeting their treaty obligations toward defense spending helped Russia how?

[jj3jordan 2,053]

12 minutes ago, GoAU said:

So Trump pointing out that Europe was becoming too dependent on Russian oil, and that many NATO countries were not meeting their treaty obligations toward defense spending helped Russia how?

Yes that's true. NATO stepped up and began honoring their obligations thanks to Trump and as a result are more unified because of it. But Biden is taking credit for NATOs unified response. I guess maybe playing dumb caused NATO to realize that they needed to step up because Biden was less than milquetoast.

[channonc 466]

I haven't watched a whole lot of American press during the coverage of this war. I've been mostly sticking to BBC World News and France 24. They have really been providing a lot more information on the "behind the scenes" conversations between U.S./E.U./NATO nations. I've actually learned a lot more about our own position and next steps we will be taking before the U.S. media reports it.

[bigbird 60,554]

3 hours ago, kennypowers said:

So, the man thinks Putin's actions are genius, and you doubt he would help Putin if he were still squatting in office?  Ok.

You do realize that bad and mean people can do things that are strategically smart, right? Admitting that is in no way support of that person, nor would any rational person think that .  It's the similar to saying Saban's offensive pivot was genius.  

Do I think it was badly timed? Absolutely! Terrible timing and optics, especially when you have half the country waiting to pounce on anything he does or says.

[Shoney'sPonyBoy 345]

19 hours ago, icanthearyou said:

He could have done what no Democrat can do.  He could have made real structural reforms without anyone screaming socialism.   He had a lot of unconditional support and therefore, a lot of power.  He truly could have been a transformational President.  No Democrat has had that kind of power since FDR.

 

I can't see that as anything other than a ridiculous statement. 

The opposing party was literally promising to obstruct Trump before he even took office. 

He faced division and opposition from within his own party that I haven't seen from another POTUS's party in my lifetime (and the fact that he deserved it is not the point, so please don't reply with that.)

If you're talking about members of his base, three things about that:

1.  Yes, he had a minority of the voting base who supported him no matter what.  But how is that any different than the people who supported Bill Clinton even though he was a proven sexual harasser and perjurer and probable rapist?  Obama never acted like either of the other two mentioned here, but you really think his core supporters would have balked at anything he wanted to do policy-wise?

2.  So what?  Having ordinary citizens support you doesn't mean "you have a lot of power."  It doesn't help one bit with making structural reforms.  Especially when you don't even have enough of them to get elected to a second term.

3.  Did I mention it was a minority of the base?

This is just literally silly.

[autigeremt 6,641]

1 hour ago, channonc said:

I haven't watched a whole lot of American press during the coverage of this war. I've been mostly sticking to BBC World News and France 24. They have really been providing a lot more information on the "behind the scenes" conversations between U.S./E.U./NATO nations. I've actually learned a lot more about our own position and next steps we will be taking before the U.S. media reports it.

I have been watching BBC and agree with you 100%. I like their coverage much more than the US media outlets. 

[icanthearyou 4,463]

50 minutes ago, Shoney'sPonyBoy said:

I can't see that as anything other than a ridiculous statement. 

The opposing party was literally promising to obstruct Trump before he even took office. 

He faced division and opposition from within his own party that I haven't seen from another POTUS's party in my lifetime (and the fact that he deserved it is not the point, so please don't reply with that.)

If you're talking about members of his base, three things about that:

1.  Yes, he had a minority of the voting base who supported him no matter what.  But how is that any different than the people who supported Bill Clinton even though he was a proven sexual harasser and perjurer and probable rapist?  Obama never acted like either of the other two mentioned here, but you really think his core supporters would have balked at anything he wanted to do policy-wise?

2.  So what?  Having ordinary citizens support you doesn't mean "you have a lot of power."  It doesn't help one bit with making structural reforms.  Especially when you don't even have enough of them to get elected to a second term.

3.  Did I mention it was a minority of the base?

This is just literally silly.

Sure.  He owned 38% of America.  That proved to be the floor of his support.  He owned almost 90% of the party (hardly a "minority of the base").  He had congress (for two years).

I do not understand the rational of your statements regarding Clinton and Obama.  Maybe Obama but, he was dealing with a global financial crises so,,, no.  You have to understand how terrified most Democrats are of being called socialist or, soft on crime.  Republicans have used these to turn public opinion swiftly.

Sorry, I must disagree.

[CoffeeTiger 5,113]

3 hours ago, bigbird said:

You do realize that bad and mean people can do things that are strategically smart, right? Admitting that is in no way support of that person, nor would any rational person think that .  It's the similar to saying Saban's offensive pivot was genius.  
 

3 hours ago, bigbird said:

Do I think it was badly timed? Absolutely! Terrible timing and optics, especially when you have half the country waiting to pounce on anything he does or says.

 

Aside from being bad timing it looks more and more like Trumps analysis is just plain wrong altogether. 
 

Russia seems to have started the war poorly from a strategic level. The Russian Ruble is collapsing, Russia is losing billions in outside investments, and Russia has brought NATO Allie’s closer together than they’ve been in decades, and have pretty much United  the entire world against them outside of China. 

 

Far from being a ‘savvy genius’ it’s looking like this may be the biggest mistake/miscalculation that Putin has ever made. 

[CoffeeTiger 5,113]

5 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

Yes that's true. NATO stepped up and began honoring their obligations thanks to Trump and as a result are more unified because of it. But Biden is taking credit for NATOs unified response. I guess maybe playing dumb caused NATO to realize that they needed to step up because Biden was less than milquetoast.

 

But under Trump nobody else in NATO or Europe trusted the US or Trump because he was so erratic and unpredictable. 
 

while Biden isn’t as aggressive or commanding, he is more down to earth and acts as a steady hand the rest of the world doesn’t have to constantly be on guard against, which I think certainly helps in this situation. 
 

[bigbird 60,554]

40 minutes ago, CoffeeTiger said:

 

Aside from being bad timing it looks more and more like Trumps analysis is just plain wrong altogether. 
 

Russia seems to have started the war poorly from a strategic level. The Russian Ruble is collapsing, Russia is losing billions in outside investments, and Russia has brought NATO Allie’s closer together than they’ve been in decades, and have pretty much United  the entire world against them outside of China. 

 

Far from being a ‘savvy genius’ it’s looking like this may be the biggest mistake/miscalculation that Putin has ever made. 

I pray he was wrong. Anyone not, is an idiot.

 

That said, anyone that takes his comments as an endorsement of the man or his actions is similarly, an idiot.

[CoffeeTiger 5,113]

1 hour ago, bigbird said:

I pray he was wrong. Anyone not, is an idiot.

 

That said, anyone that takes his comments as an endorsement of the man or his actions is similarly, an idiot.

 Talking about Trump being an ally of Putin is mainly a fun meme to me. 
 

I know Trump in general terms likes Putin because he’s said so himself numerous times over the decades and Putin was one of Trumps key international friends during his term, but I know he likely wouldn’t actually side with Putin or go against Europe and help Putin against Ukraine in this situation because it would be a massively unpopular thing to do domestically. 

 

He might not even really think’ Putin  is an actual genius here. Like most Republicans, Trump knows the narrative he had to follow is that Biden is weak and is making America look weak, so the obvious thing to say would be that Putin is strong and smart and then comparing that against ‘weak’ ‘stupid’ Biden. 
 

it’s all politics and propaganda. What Trump says right now is all aimed at trying to talk himself up and disparage Biden and Democrats, and probably has no relation to what he would think or say if he was actually still President. 

Edited March 2, 2022 by CoffeeTiger

[homersapien 11,385]

On 2/28/2022 at 6:31 PM, icanthearyou said:

I like America first if, it means America's principles of democracy and fair trade.  If it means being selfish and indifferent, no.

My fear is that the Presidents you listed were unduly influenced by capitalists who's only interest was greed.

Trump squandered a golden opportunity.  He could have done what no Democrat can do.  He could have made real structural reforms without anyone screaming socialism.   He had a lot of unconditional support and therefore, a lot of power.  He truly could have been a transformational President.  No Democrat has had that kind of power since FDR.

We need a President with the ability to challenge the capitalists without destroying them.

As long as "money in politics" is immune to regulation the wealthy will remain in the driver's seat.