OL Recruiting Concerns And Transfer Debate

[SumterAubie 3,031]

On 8/26/2023 at 7:56 AM, Mikey said:

4* based on their performance against, for the most part, lower level teams. They may work out here, they may not. It's not like getting 4* high school guys and letting them mature for a couple of years. Those that are still around after two years you pretty much know what you have. The transfers are an unknown quality and you won't know the whole story with them until an SEC DT or DE is lined up across from them.

 

As opposed to 4 star high school tackles playing against high school teams we know less about than the lower level college teams the transfers have played against.. 

Sounds about right.

[toddc 13,194]

8 hours ago, SumterAubie said:

As opposed to 4 star high school tackles playing against high school teams we know less about than the lower level college teams the transfers have played against.. 

Sounds about right.

Plus the kid is done growing in height and put on some college training muscle mass. Better prediction of what they can be.

[Mikey 16,622]

8 hours ago, SumterAubie said:

As opposed to 4 star high school tackles playing against high school teams we know less about than the lower level college teams the transfers have played against.. 

Sounds about right.

Roughly 10X the resources are put into rating high school players vs. college players. Try reading my whole post. Here' I'll quote the part you seem to have missed: "It's not like getting 4* high school guys and letting them mature for a couple of years."

Edited August 28, 2023 by Mikey

[TexasTiger 12,948]

11 minutes ago, Mikey said:

Roughly 10X the resources are put into rating high school players vs. college players. Try reading my whole post. Here' I'll quote the part you seem to have missed: "It's not like getting 4* high school guys and letting them mature for a couple of years."

9.372 to be precise.

[W.E.D 11,070]

2 hours ago, Mikey said:

Roughly 10X the resources are put into rating high school players vs. college players.

Cite?

[W.E.D 11,070]

IDK why this is so difficult.

 

Gus - OL ended up being a disaster
Harsin - Watched limited Sr level talent leaver and left nothing worth a s***
Freeze

• Year 1 - Completely revamped the OL adding 4 transfers that will all be starters, a juco that should start next year, .  Brought in 5 HS OL in the 2023 class.  Great start
• Year 2 Projection- Shocking to all except 1 moron, the situation wasn't completely fixed within the first 9 months of Hugh Freeze's reign.
  • Auburn is currently looking at bringing back starters Dillion Wade/Jayden Muskrat/Wright for the 2024 season.
  • Conner Lew seems to be the 6th man OL and even pushing for a starting spot
  • Miller seems to be the back up LT/RT and progression well.
  • This will give us a solid core, but depth will be concerning....luckily we can address that.
• Year 2 Recruiting
  • Everyone can/should admit the OL recruiting isn't going as planned.  We've missed on nearly every single top target. 
  • Getting Carter will be nice, but we need 3-5 good HS OL.
  • Everyone is now pivoting to claim soft class, didn't want anyone, we're just going to go to the portal anyways, excuses etc.  Just admit we're doing bad on the OL right now.  It's okay
  • We need to back fill in the portal heavily again and find mid-class guys who don't expect to be immediate starters and 1-2 immediate starters

What's different vs previous regimes is the OL will be continually addressed vs letting it flounder.  We'll 100% have closer to 20 OL on our roster next year than 15.  If we don't add anyone in the portal and no more HS recruits after Carter, one moron can claim victory....but do you really think that is the hill you want to die on?

[bigbird 60,565]

3 hours ago, W.E.D said:

IDK why this is so difficult.

 

Gus - OL ended up being a disaster
Harsin - Watched limited Sr level talent leaver and left nothing worth a s***
Freeze

• Year 1 - Completely revamped the OL adding 4 transfers that will all be starters, a juco that should start next year, .  Brought in 5 HS OL in the 2023 class.  Great start
• Year 2 Projection- Shocking to all except 1 moron, the situation wasn't completely fixed within the first 9 months of Hugh Freeze's reign.
  • Auburn is currently looking at bringing back starters Dillion Wade/Jayden Muskrat/Wright for the 2024 season.
  • Conner Lew seems to be the 6th man OL and even pushing for a starting spot
  • Miller seems to be the back up LT/RT and progression well.
  • This will give us a solid core, but depth will be concerning....luckily we can address that.
• Year 2 Recruiting
  • Everyone can/should admit the OL recruiting isn't going as planned.  We've missed on nearly every single top target. 
  • Getting Carter will be nice, but we need 3-5 good HS OL.
  • Everyone is now pivoting to claim soft class, didn't want anyone, we're just going to go to the portal anyways, excuses etc.  Just admit we're doing bad on the OL right now.  It's okay
  • We need to back fill in the portal heavily again and find mid-class guys who don't expect to be immediate starters and 1-2 immediate starters

What's different vs previous regimes is the OL will be continually addressed vs letting it flounder.  We'll 100% have closer to 20 OL on our roster next year than 15.  If we don't add anyone in the portal and no more HS recruits after Carter, one moron can claim victory....but do you really think that is the hill you want to die on?

It's not about numbers.  It's whether those numbers can contribute and adequately provide depth.  If they can't, we can't count on them. 

[W.E.D 11,070]

1 minute ago, bigbird said:

It's not about numbers.  It's whether those numbers can contribute and adequately provide depth.  If they can't, we an't count on them. 

Eh, numbers go towards guys who can develop and become adequate providers of depth.  3/4 of the guys in the last two classes can't currently provide depth.

[MCPeePants 227]

5 hours ago, W.E.D said:

 

• • Everyone is now pivoting to claim soft class, didn't want anyone, we're just going to go to the portal anyways, excuses etc.  Just admit we're doing bad on the OL right now.  It's okay
  • We need to back fill in the portal heavily again and find mid-class guys who don't expect to be immediate starters and 1-2 immediate starters

 

To be fair, this has been said for a loooooong time now with this class.

[SumterAubie 3,031]

On 8/26/2023 at 7:56 AM, Mikey said:

4* based on their performance against, for the most part, lower level teams. They may work out here, they may not. It's not like getting 4* high school guys and letting them mature for a couple of years. Those that are still around after two years you pretty much know what you have. The transfers are an unknown quality and you won't know the whole story with them until an SEC DT or DE is lined up across from them.

 

 

21 hours ago, SumterAubie said:

As opposed to 4 star high school tackles playing against high school teams we know less about than the lower level college teams the transfers have played against.. 

Sounds about right.

 

13 hours ago, Mikey said:

Roughly 10X the resources are put into rating high school players vs. college players. Try reading my whole post. Here' I'll quote the part you seem to have missed: "It's not like getting 4* high school guys and letting them mature for a couple of years."

So you think Freeze and Staff can't adequately judge the quality of an experienced college football player?

[Mikey 16,622]

52 minutes ago, SumterAubie said:

So you think Freeze and Staff can't adequately judge the quality of an experienced college football player?

What makes you take that tangent? I was discussing rating services.

[SumterAubie 3,031]

23 minutes ago, Mikey said:

What makes you take that tangent? I was discussing rating services.

You imply it yourself

The transfers are an unknown quality and you won't know the whole story with them until an SEC DT or DE is lined up across from them.

Unknown quality implying our coaching staff, in choosing players out of the portal, can't adequately evaluate the player. 

Roughly 10X the resources are put into rating high school players vs. college players.

And here. Implying the Staff needs this '10x the resources' to properly evaluate a high school player. Apparently unable to do it on their own. As if the Staff is relying on rating services in their own evaluations.

[Mikey 16,622]

8 hours ago, SumterAubie said:

And here. Implying the Staff needs this '10x the resources' to properly evaluate a high school player.

I didn't bring the staff into it at all.

[Cardin Drake 1,834]

Let's look at Gus's last 3 OL classes, and Harsin's 2.  In a normal world, this would be the core of our OL this year, particularly Gus's classes.   Harsin came in, and with a looming numbers problem on the OL  promptly recruited 3 guys in two years, only one of which is still with the team--Harris.  One of the ones who left is with Troy and the other is Langlo, and I don't know where he is.  Harsin also managed to fail to retain 3 pretty good guys who would be contributing this year.  Keiondre Jones who is 2nd team at guard at FSU,  Justin Rogers, (starting at SMU), and Kamaar Bell, (starting at Florida Atlantic).  So Harsin's contribution to the team is a net negative 2 contributors in 2 years.   Could be 3 if Harris doesn't pan out. I guess you could argue Jones was not on Harsin, but deep down we all know it was.  If Jones would have hung around for a few months and got to know the new staff, he likely would have stayed, but his decision was already made.

The high school guys Gus brought in in his last 3 years were all solid. In addition to the 3 previously mentioned, 4 are still with the team-- Stutts, Irvin, Johnson, and Wright-2 starters and 2 backups.  My only criticism of Gus was that he under-recruited the position.   One of those classes had 2, another 3, and 2020 had 5 counting two JUCOs.  Gus was a good recruiter overall, and his evaluations on the OL he brought in were good if not great.  He just needed to bring in more.

In addition to 6 scholarship freshmen, Freeze brought in 3 PWO's last year. I really like that. Numbers matter.  OL is the hardest position to judge out of high school. A high school kid may not even go against a single D1 opponent all year.   Lots of 2 and 3 star guys OL are in the NFL.  And most guys need a couple of years of weight training to see what you've got.  There's a lot to be said for bringing in transfers-you really have a much better idea of what you have.  The film on them is solid.  I'm not worried about Freeze because he has already demonstrated he understands how important OL is, and he has done a fine job bringing in high school kids and transfers.  Let's judge this class when it's over. I'll bet $50 bucks against a donut we'll be happy with it.

TLDR: Gus's recruiting on the OL decent but lacked numbers. That dipstick Harsin ran more off than he brought in; Freeze is the MAN.

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Cardin Drake

[SumterAubie 3,031]

7 hours ago, Mikey said:

I didn't bring the staff into it at all.

And here. Implying the Staff Freeze needs this '10x the resources' to properly evaluate a high school player.

So it's just Freeze who can't properly evaluate portal transfers and high school seniors. Okay

[tbone4jc 2,241]

I don’t think the concern is the current roster as far as numbers go. As we all know the regurgitate hot point is the lack of quality OLine men from the high school level this class. I’m going to chill for now but if this continues the next recruiting cycle then I’m hoisting the red flag very high! 

Also, most of the hype over the transfer portal guys are  just static as of right now and will be until we start the SEC schedule, then we’ll see if they were big fish in a little pond or overhyped small school transfers. Hoping for the former 

Edited August 29, 2023 by tbone4jc

[JuscAUse! 1,416]

I believe that a much larger percentage of a teams resources for evaluation of recruits will be directed to the transfer portal. At least until some rules or bylaws are implemented, or some other sorting out occurs. As long as a player can transfer once without penalty, players will do so. And it won't just be ours. IMO, a highly rated player will be less inclined to sit a year or two at his original school. I could be wrong. We shall see. 

[Hank2020 3,208]

40 minutes ago, JuscAUse! said:

I believe that a much larger percentage of a teams resources for evaluation of recruits will be directed to the transfer portal. At least until some rules or bylaws are implemented, or some other sorting out occurs. As long as a player can transfer once without penalty, players will do so. And it won't just be ours. IMO, a highly rated player will be less inclined to sit a year or two at his original school. I could be wrong. We shall see. 

I agree. We will probably need a full system to evaluate who we are going to approach to show our interest in case they decide to enter portal.

[Hank2020 3,208]

40 minutes ago, JuscAUse! said:

I believe that a much larger percentage of a teams resources for evaluation of recruits will be directed to the transfer portal. At least until some rules or bylaws are implemented, or some other sorting out occurs. As long as a player can transfer once without penalty, players will do so. And it won't just be ours. IMO, a highly rated player will be less inclined to sit a year or two at his original school. I could be wrong. We shall see. 

I agree. We will probably need a full system to evaluate who we are going to approach to show our interest in case they decide to enter portal.

[gman87 398]

Personally, the OL has been a glaring weakness for AU for probably 5 years. Other teams recruit against us using that. The new staff needs to show on the field they can produce. Once that happens it takes the teeth out of negative recruiting.

Until that point, I could give a rats ass how old or what level our linemen are as long as they can fill their role on the team properly.

Sometimes you just have to bail water till you can get moving enough for the boat to start draining itself.

[mcgufcm 4,104]

I guess I'm confused why people are so down on OL recruiting under the current group. Even if we ignore the transfers (count me in the camp that, until rules change, transfers are not just a way to rebound but the best way to fill holes year-on-year), Freeze and Thornton have outstripped Gus and Harsin. It's not all that close.

Izavion Miller (OT) and Connor Lew (C) are guys capable on contributing immediately and likely multi-year starters
Senda (OT/OG) looks like another near lock to contribute soon but not likely as a true freshman
Wedin (OT), Joiner (C/OG), and Tyler Johnson (OT) look like exactly the kind of developmental prospects that we failed to take under Gus. That especially true when it comes to Tackles.

If we add DeAndre Carter (viewed as another very high-end prospect in the Miller/Lew category) and supplement 2-3 other developmental guys, that's already better than what we've seen in the past. I expect JUCO names will emerge. JUCO is being under-recruited right now, but you won't know those names until later in the fall. If we manage to flip a guy like Echols or Taumua, it's not even close.

We missed on Casey Poe. We missed on Daniel Calhoun. We missed on Kalil House, Taumua, and Echols (although we've continued to stay on those guys). We stopped pursuing McRoy. We were never really in it for some others. Even so, if we add four HS/JUCO guys this year (which is what I expect), that will be 10 in two years. Those are unheard of numbers in Gus (10 in his last three years combined) or Harsin (four total in his two year). That's ignoring the quality of the prospects signed, which also tips toward the current regime.

If you add the portal, it clearly shows a coaching staff focused on addressing a major need and managing the roster better, which means you cannot just rush out and sign 12 HS guys in two years.

[DAG 33,995]

Some of y’all will have to learn the hard way. I am keeping receipts this time because I am petty like that . 

[cbo 7,854]

1 hour ago, mcgufcm said:

I guess I'm confused why people are so down on OL recruiting under the current group. Even if we ignore the transfers (count me in the camp that, until rules change, transfers are not just a way to rebound but the best way to fill holes year-on-year), Freeze and Thornton have outstripped Gus and Harsin. It's not all that close.

Izavion Miller (OT) and Connor Lew (C) are guys capable on contributing immediately and likely multi-year starters
Senda (OT/OG) looks like another near lock to contribute soon but not likely as a true freshman
Wedin (OT), Joiner (C/OG), and Tyler Johnson (OT) look like exactly the kind of developmental prospects that we failed to take under Gus. That especially true when it comes to Tackles.

If we add DeAndre Carter (viewed as another very high-end prospect in the Miller/Lew category) and supplement 2-3 other developmental guys, that's already better than what we've seen in the past. I expect JUCO names will emerge. JUCO is being under-recruited right now, but you won't know those names until later in the fall. If we manage to flip a guy like Echols or Taumua, it's not even close.

We missed on Casey Poe. We missed on Daniel Calhoun. We missed on Kalil House, Taumua, and Echols (although we've continued to stay on those guys). We stopped pursuing McRoy. We were never really in it for some others. Even so, if we add four HS/JUCO guys this year (which is what I expect), that will be 10 in two years. Those are unheard of numbers in Gus (10 in his last three years combined) or Harsin (four total in his two year). That's ignoring the quality of the prospects signed, which also tips toward the current regime.

If you add the portal, it clearly shows a coaching staff focused on addressing a major need and managing the roster better, which means you cannot just rush out and sign 12 HS guys in two years.

Good points here and I appreciate the summary you provided. I had forgotten about a couple guys from last year's class.

But the goal is not to beat Gus and Harsin at OL recruiting. Anyone should be able to do that. 

I think everyone agrees Freeze did a great job getting OL from the portal. The 2023 OL class looks pretty good. Senda seems like a big get. 

Unfortunately, the 2024 class is nothing but misses so far. That could change, but it's reasonable to be concerned with such a huge position of need where we definitely need to get HS schools players in the pipeline. 

 

[AUloggerhead 2,238]

4 minutes ago, cbo said:

... Unfortunately, the 2024 class is nothing but misses so far. That could change, but it's reasonable to be concerned with such a huge position of need where we definitely need to get HS schools players in the pipeline. 

 

Ideally, yes.  It's widely acknowledged that OL are the most difficult positions to master and very few do so as FR.  It would be great to stock up on blue-chip HS OL & inculcate them to the offense & OL play in general.  Absent that strategy, then what's the alternative?  The portal and/or JUCO route offer opportunities to cherry-pick experienced OL for immediate playing time, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.  In fact, it's really smart.  Bruce Pearl has stated he plans to use the portal more to recruit experienced talent.  Bill Snyder won a lot of games at KSU recruiting JUCO players.  Also, there's no guarantee any OL recruited from HS will pan out as predicted or become disillusioned and seek greener pastures thru the portal itself.  It's a new day & age, and staffs that adapt to the changes will find success.  It's astounding to me how fast Freeze & staff have adapted to the changes and completely rebuilt the roster including the OL in just one recruiting cycle.  This bodes well for AU in the future.  I do not share in any "concern for the OL" going forward.  AU is in good hands.  

[cbo 7,854]

22 minutes ago, AUloggerhead said:

The portal and/or JUCO route offer opportunities to cherry-pick experienced OL for immediate playing time, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.  In fact, it's really smart.  Bruce Pearl has stated he plans to use the portal more to recruit experienced talent.  Bill Snyder won a lot of games at KSU recruiting JUCO players.  

I guess we are about to get the perfect case study on that. Freeze did as good a job as possible recruiting OL from the portal. I think the result will be a SEC average line. Not a dominant one. Hope I'm wrong. 

I'm all for working the portal and JUCO to fill needs. I'm not for relying on it to fill the majority of a starting position group. I doubt Freeze is either.

All some of us are saying is that we hope this year's HS OL class improves. And it's a concern if it doesn't.